Why the wheel of time is Almost epic ( IMO)

[Suttree]

You'll only get hate from those who think the sun shone out of RJ's ass (I might get banned for saying this!).

 

Maybe spend some time around this parts and look at old threads before tossing around absurd claims rat. Post CoT RJ took a ton of criticism both here and at Theoryland. No one is saying he is perfect. He has his strengths and his writing while good in genre doesn't really hold up when one looks outside. That said almost everyone here has just taking a realistic view when it comes to what we have from a quality perspective with both authors. You might try it yourself, certainly you would be better served backing up your points about no character growth with proof from the series?

[Tarvalantarverann]

EDITED to add spoiler tags

 

 

 

Yes, well said. The characters did not develop and remained pretty much the same for the entire series. Even right at the end when Perrin walks in after Rand's "death", Nynaeve abuses him and orders him to sit as if he was a dog!

 

Thank you!
This is exactly the behaviour I was referencing and the main problem I have with the series. some people had said nyneave grows out of this in book 8 but I see that is BS now. Just confirms my resolution to put down the books... Forever!

[ratswot]

 

Thank you!

This is exactly the behaviour I was referencing and the main problem I have with the series. some people had said nyneave grows out of this in book 8 but I see that is BS now. Just confirms my resolution to put down the books... Forever!

Unfortunately none of the girls/women change a single bit. They remain the same throughout the series. However do not give up on the series. If you can persist for a little while, skim/skip read if you must, then thanks to Sanderson the final three books of the series are very good.

[BFG]

Please remember that this is a spoiler free forum.  Thanks

[ratswot]

Please remember that this is a spoiler free forum.  Thanks

 

Sorry, I will use the spoiler show/hide feature next time. Thanks.

[Rachel_VIP]

Well, i don't mean to insult anyone, but I want to ask how is it possible to be irritated with fictional characters? They couldn't possibly do anything to you to have such an anger towards them. What is the point to waste precious time on hate-tread? The characters are flawed because it wouldn't be interesting otherwise. Where would be the intrigue? I can't imagine them just to sit ant nit all day. Not to mention that some of their traits and words are totally put out of context and taken way too seriously. Some of the most criticized things are written with the intention of being funny. It's only a book. Don't forget it.

[EmperorAllspice]

Well, as a person who's dedicated his life to the business of media. I think it's important to know the difference between fiction and reality, and I'm sure everyone here does, BUT, fiction is a prime means of escapism, people can develop genuine attachments to characters and desire to see them prosper. The concept of a hero wouldn't exist if the reader wasn't expected to grow some sort of attachment to them and want to see them succeed. Following on from that avenue it's logical to assume that lots of people want characters to be likeable in spite of their flaws, and that brings up the whole kettle of fish relating to different people's moral systems and what's likeable or a turn off to them etc etc.

 

and if you're someone like me, then you have to invest time in watching a show or reading a book. So if you find yourself reading about characters you can't stand then you've basically wasted both your money AND your time. That can be pretty damn frustrating even if the events of the story didn't inspire genuine fury.

[Rachel_VIP]

Well, as a person who's dedicated his life to the business of media. I think it's important to know the difference between fiction and reality, and I'm sure everyone here does, BUT, fiction is a prime means of escapism, people can develop genuine attachments to characters and desire to see them prosper. The concept of a hero wouldn't exist if the reader wasn't expected to grow some sort of attachment to them and want to see them succeed. Following on from that avenue it's logical to assume that lots of people want characters to be likeable in spite of their flaws, and that brings up the whole kettle of fish relating to different people's moral systems and what's likeable or a turn off to them etc etc.

 

and if you're someone like me, then you have to invest time in watching a show or reading a book. So if you find yourself reading about characters you can't stand then you've basically wasted both your money AND your time. That can be pretty damn frustrating even if the events of the story didn't inspire genuine fury.

Oh, i see your point. I have spent a lot of money on books that eventually didn't turn out to be that good and of course i regretted but nothing more. What bugs me is that some people hate characters from a book with the fervor they would hate real people. I can totally understand the emotional attachment to some hero or heroine. It is great. I have felt it many times. Otherwise it wouldn't be exiting for me. But i have never gone to hate. If i love a character, then i love them and it's epic. If i don't like them, it's not painful or irritating. I just read what i like and don't waste time on hate-treads, offending the ones who actually like them. I have nothing against criticism if it's expressed in a proper, mature way. Otherwise it's weird. 

[EmperorAllspice]

I don't get the genuine hatred of jerks like, say, Joffrey in ASOIAF. Hating a person who's meant to be a jerk is like hating a mailman for delivering the mail. He's just doing his job.

 

I DO understand hatred for characters like Egwene, who're MEANT to be likeable. There's something inherantly frustrating about a character the author intends to be likeable, who you find detestable for one reason or another.

[Rachel_VIP]

I don't get the genuine hatred of jerks like, say, Joffrey in ASOIAF. Hating a person who's meant to be a jerk is like hating a mailman for delivering the mail. He's just doing his job.

 

I DO understand hatred for characters like Egwene, who're MEANT to be likeable. There's something inherantly frustrating about a character the author intends to be likeable, who you find detestable for one reason or another.

 

Well, I personally like Egwene despite her flaws, but not everybody is obliged to agree with me. Everyone has their own opinion and it' all right as long as they say it right. For example "I don't like Egwene because...." you say whatever the reason you have. But sentences like "Egwene is a bitch. She's a cow and i want her to die in flames" is entirely different matter. This isn't opinion. It's an insult. It is really venomous and unpleasant and it can be really overwhelming. This should be civilized discussion, but people like that just don't get it.

 

And as for likeable and unlikeable characters that is what is interesting in WOT. It wouldn't be interesting is it was only "the good guy" and "the bad guy". People are complex. Otherwise the story would be too simple.

[Tarvalantarverann]

Why is it not ok to express hate? It is a real emotion that we all feel from time to time, if you can sincerely love a character why not hate also? I don't mean to say you should use over the top abusive language to detail your feelings but there have been paragraphs here devoted to reasons why people love characters.

 

I don't think you can separate reality from fiction completely, this is what I mean; when reading fiction your opinions on what makes a person likeable does not change, therefore the feeling you have towards a particularly unsavoury character should be exactly the same as it would be to the person in real life, the exception being they can't hurt you and as soon as you put down the book they are gone. But while reading a book that stars someone you hate it is impossible not to feel strong emotions and disappointment towards characters that ruin the book for you.

 

That is why the "haters" are here, because we feel wronged by a particular personality and to a certain degree are pissed about it.

[clutzyninja]

I don't get the genuine hatred of jerks like, say, Joffrey in ASOIAF. Hating a person who's meant to be a jerk is like hating a mailman for delivering the mail. He's just doing his job.

 

I DO understand hatred for characters like Egwene, who're MEANT to be likeable. There's something inherantly frustrating about a character the author intends to be likeable, who you find detestable for one reason or another.

Your analogy is flawed.  Hating a character that's meant to be hated means the author did his job.  Hating a character that is a jerk is like, well, receiving mail from the mailman.  Because it's his job.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

I don't get the genuine hatred of jerks like, say, Joffrey in ASOIAF. Hating a person who's meant to be a jerk is like hating a mailman for delivering the mail. He's just doing his job.

 

I DO understand hatred for characters like Egwene, who're MEANT to be likeable. There's something inherantly frustrating about a character the author intends to be likeable, who you find detestable for one reason or another.

Your analogy is flawed.  Hating a character that's meant to be hated means the author did his job.  Hating a character that is a jerk is like, well, receiving mail from the mailman.  Because it's his job.

 

Oh, I know my analogy is flawed, but I don't see why an author would WANT an audience to HATE a character. Shouldn't an audience be enjoying themselves throughout the book? Narratively, jerks serve a specific function, and hating them for that function seems a bit odd.

 

But then, I'm weird when it comes to liking the wrong sorts of characters.

[clutzyninja]

I think it may come down to different personal definitions of hate.  When I "hate" a character in a book, it's not like I'm walkig around all day stewing over it.  It doesn't ruin my day or make me feel bad.  It's an emotional reaction to the story.  "Screw Joeffrey, I hate him, I hope he dies slow," is a perfectly valid reaction by someone who is enjoying the story they're being told.  Feeling bad is often necessary in storytelling.  That's why some of Shakespeare's greatest works are trajedies.  The author decides what he wants his audience to feel, and if he is effective, then that is what they feel.  If he is very effective, they feel what the characters are feeling, because they have formed an emotional bond with those characters.  Not hating an evil character, to me, means I don't care about the evil things he is doing to the characters that I SHOULD love.

[Orderofolde]

RJ wrote a world where women were the dominant power who thought men were fools and woolheads and not to be trusted while repeatedly their own actions showed that THEY were the idiots.

[ratswot]

RJ wrote a world where women were the dominant power who thought men were fools and woolheads and not to be trusted while repeatedly their own actions showed that THEY were the idiots.

 

Yes RJ was a master of this. The women in TWOT remind me of Lucile Ball from I love Lucy. Always willing to berate men but ultimately the joke is on them!

[Eht Slat Meit]

On that note about character flaws, one that really totally grated on me throughout the series is Rand's aversion to hurting women. Seriously, here is a guy that is surrounded by every sort of hardcore female capable of kicking as much butt as any guy, he has a history of being surrounded by some of the foulest and most vicious women ever born, and yet throughout it all he simps over and nurses a ridiculous vibe about protecting women and not hurting them. I could seriously see Lanfear slaughtering a room full of children in front of him until he finally does something and then adds her name to "The List".

 

I realize they're all meant to have character flaws, Perrin and his obsesssiveness over Faile, Mat's irresponsbility bordering on ignornace and all the forenamed flaws of the female leads, but there's a point of overkill.

[clutzyninja]

On that note about character flaws, one that really totally grated on me throughout the series is Rand's aversion to hurting women. Seriously, here is a guy that is surrounded by every sort of hardcore female capable of kicking as much butt as any guy, he has a history of being surrounded by some of the foulest and most vicious women ever born, and yet throughout it all he simps over and nurses a ridiculous vibe about protecting women and not hurting them. I could seriously see Lanfear slaughtering a room full of children in front of him until he finally does something and then adds her name to "The List".

 

I realize they're all meant to have character flaws, Perrin and his obsesssiveness over Faile, Mat's irresponsbility bordering on ignornace and all the forenamed flaws of the female leads, but there's a point of overkill.

I'm not sure I'd have any easier of a time than Rand, but in his position.  It's one thing to talk a big game, but unless you're a complete scumbag, lower than dirt piece of filth, hurting a woman is not something that should come easily.

[EmperorAllspice]

 

On that note about character flaws, one that really totally grated on me throughout the series is Rand's aversion to hurting women. Seriously, here is a guy that is surrounded by every sort of hardcore female capable of kicking as much butt as any guy, he has a history of being surrounded by some of the foulest and most vicious women ever born, and yet throughout it all he simps over and nurses a ridiculous vibe about protecting women and not hurting them. I could seriously see Lanfear slaughtering a room full of children in front of him until he finally does something and then adds her name to "The List".

 

I realize they're all meant to have character flaws, Perrin and his obsesssiveness over Faile, Mat's irresponsbility bordering on ignornace and all the forenamed flaws of the female leads, but there's a point of overkill.

I'm not sure I'd have any easier of a time than Rand, but in his position.  It's one thing to talk a big game, but unless you're a complete scumbag, lower than dirt piece of filth, hurting a woman is not something that should come easily.

 

Why not? Why shouldn't it come just as easily as killing a man. It being less commonplace I can understand, but not how it's somehow more wrong to hurt a woman. Especially given that most men's reasons for this seem to stem from them thinking women are frail and weak.

 

The entire gender seeming to forget that women run EVERYTHING in this world and are the only gender initially allowed to use one of the most broken magical power sources in all of fiction.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

 

On that note about character flaws, one that really totally grated on me throughout the series is Rand's aversion to hurting women. Seriously, here is a guy that is surrounded by every sort of hardcore female capable of kicking as much butt as any guy, he has a history of being surrounded by some of the foulest and most vicious women ever born, and yet throughout it all he simps over and nurses a ridiculous vibe about protecting women and not hurting them. I could seriously see Lanfear slaughtering a room full of children in front of him until he finally does something and then adds her name to "The List".

 

I realize they're all meant to have character flaws, Perrin and his obsesssiveness over Faile, Mat's irresponsbility bordering on ignornace and all the forenamed flaws of the female leads, but there's a point of overkill.

I'm not sure I'd have any easier of a time than Rand, but in his position.  It's one thing to talk a big game, but unless you're a complete scumbag, lower than dirt piece of filth, hurting a woman is not something that should come easily.

 

Why not? Why shouldn't it come just as easily as killing a man. It being less commonplace I can understand, but not how it's somehow more wrong to hurt a woman. Especially given that most men's reasons for this seem to stem from them thinking women are frail and weak.

 

The entire gender seeming to forget that women run EVERYTHING in this world and are the only gender initially allowed to use one of the most broken magical power sources in all of fiction.

 

 

It's not exactly logical, but it is realistic. That's how men think. They have thought it in real life for as long as written history, and evidence suggests well before that. 

 

In the Two Rivers, they are very traditional in that respect. The men "fight" and the women do the domestic work. They are respected as equals, but their respective strengths and weaknesses are not dismissed. 

 

Killing a woman in the Two Rivers is killing someone defenceless, women are not fighters. 

 

It's just how they were raised. Modern standards don't apply, the Two Rivers isn't a fount of 21st century morality. It is a medieval-esque world where strength of arms is important.

 

Channelers aren't common in the Two Rivers. They are provincial and most have never seen an Aes Sedai, most don't even know if their power is real, or how it works. Their experience with women is the traditional one, they don't know much in the way of women superpowers. They don't know much beyond the Two Rivers at all. 

 

So Rand and co. don't know how to react when they are introduced into the wider world. They have spent 18 years believing they need to protect women in the traditional style. They know that women are not helpless and are dangerous, yet they can't just forget their morals. It would be unrealistic. 

 

So yeah, their view is illogical, they know it's illogical, but it is consistent human behaviour. That's how real people act. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Mind you, it isn't perfect. 

 

Rand is stubborn to a fault. So it is a bit exaggerated to be sure and he does go past the reasonable limit (but he IS completely insane for half of that, and is struggling with the fact he killed his family as Lews Therin. He just wants to hold on to SOMETHING honourable.) I just don't think that it's THAT bad. 

[David Selig]

 

On that note about character flaws, one that really totally grated on me throughout the series is Rand's aversion to hurting women. Seriously, here is a guy that is surrounded by every sort of hardcore female capable of kicking as much butt as any guy, he has a history of being surrounded by some of the foulest and most vicious women ever born, and yet throughout it all he simps over and nurses a ridiculous vibe about protecting women and not hurting them. I could seriously see Lanfear slaughtering a room full of children in front of him until he finally does something and then adds her name to "The List".

 

I realize they're all meant to have character flaws, Perrin and his obsesssiveness over Faile, Mat's irresponsbility bordering on ignornace and all the forenamed flaws of the female leads, but there's a point of overkill.

I'm not sure I'd have any easier of a time than Rand, but in his position.  It's one thing to talk a big game, but unless you're a complete scumbag, lower than dirt piece of filth, hurting a woman is not something that should come easily.

 

When the woman in question is literally one of the worst persons ever and a servant of the Dark One, and she's trying to kill you slowly and painfully, it should be very easy. Especially if you've already killed a bunch of men before that. Oh, and let's not forget that by your refusal you are dooming the whole world to go to hell.

[Tarvalantarverann]

^^ I agree

 

To the white knights, I don't think anyone should hurt anyone, but hurting a woman doesn't make you a scum bag peice of dirt filth or whatever you said, hurting Anyone who is considerably less physically strong as you should be looked on with equal disdain male or female.

[clutzyninja]

I'm not saying one shouldn't do what needs to be done, I'm saying it shouldn't be easy.  All other things being equal, finding it as easy to hurt a woman as you do a man, to me means there's something wrong with you.  And as far as everyone saying how easy they would find it, I wonder if they've ever been in a position to take a life, man OR woman, and if they found it as easy as they seem to think it is.  I can promise you, it is not.

[EmperorAllspice]

When the woman in question is literally one of the worst persons ever and a servant of the Dark One, and she's trying to kill you slowly and painfully, it should be very easy. Especially if you've already killed a bunch of men before that. Oh, and let's not forget that by your refusal you are dooming the whole world to go to hell.

 

I honestly don't think he could've beaten Lanfear in Fire Of Heaven, even if he had been going to kill her. Lanfear is the strongest woman ever, AND had an Angreal. I think in that scene at least he was just trying to find a way to blame himself for failing.