Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[XXX]

Demandred wanted to fight LTT as a blademaster and channeler simultaneously to prove he is #1. 

 

Blademasters: LTT (as usual #1), Demandred (the prerennial #2)...after this the rankings purely guess work.  Sammael/Bel'lal, Asmodean/ Ishamael

 

I would wager than Demandred is now as good as LTT was.

 

As a channeler Demandred would have lost, Rand Sedai is too much for even Shai'tan.  

 

As a blademaster, Rand two handed would have lost even with LTT's memories, due to lack of practice. Demandred has been praticising to prove he is also the better blademaster (see his PoV).  

 

 

Demandred to Gawyn:

 

"I was always the better general.  I will prove it here. I would have you tell that to Lews Theirn, but you will not live long enough, little swordsman".  

 

"If you do survive this and see Lews Therin, Demandred said, tell him I am very much looking forward to a match between the two of us, sword against against sword. I have improved since we last met".

 

The scar in Sammael's face...likely from LTT's mad sword skillz.

 

 

Demandred practiced the sword for 2 years in this age.Well so did Rand for nearly 2 years till he lost his hand. I think a sword fight between the 2 would have been pretty even if Rand had his hand. In a battle with the OP, Rand would have blasted him something Demandred himself admits that LTT was stronger than him in the OP.Why he went crazy searching Rand out in the Last Battle,I have no idea.

[XXX]

 

A lot of WOT's battles, tactics and results don't really add up.   Rand has been dropping the forsaken like they were nothing since EotW.  As Rand Therin Telamon, he literally fought and defeated the dark one with some assistance (and even then, through what appeared to be more of sheer force of will then strength in the OP.)  It's not believable, at least not to me, that Demandred would have had any chance against him.   Though this is an aside, a lot of the commentary from the Forsaken seems to indicate that if LTT had just been a little bit more of a decent dude, a lot of this would not have happened.    

 

Anyway, Brandon's numbers with the last battle and the skirmishes leading up to it are off, and we'll just have to accept them as is. 

Demandred didn't want to fight Rand power to power, he wanted to fight Rand sword to sword to prove he was the better man.  Besides he had no way of knowing really knowing what Rands skills were like as a channler.  Yes Rand killed off a good number of forsaken, but Dem was going to be rprepared and holding one of the most powerful devices ever made and he knew rand destroyed the statue.   So Dem figured he had the deck stacked, he thought himself the better swordsman and if Rand tired a fight with the power he had a weapon that should easily destroy Rand..

 

Well he pretty much tells Taim,that he will not use the sa'angreal in a fight with Rand. 

[RelentlessAttack]

Demandred's role and arc were honestly my favorite part of this book, and pretty much the only part that kept me unsure of how things would be resolved.

 

Despite all the other problems, from the decrease of number of forces of the light, nerfing of channelers, Perrin randomly being too tired to engage in battle, and to me the single most important problem - lack of EMOTIONAL WEIGHT and perspective during the battles in favor of killing wave after wave of shadowspawn, I loved Demandred's role.  Sure there was a lot of plot armor going on and illogical actions and Sandersonisms but those are all things that I very much expected from this book after the last two - I simply decided to take them at face value and enjoy the book for what it is.

 

Many others have already touched on the things that made his story satisfying and I simply want to add my voice to theirs.

 

 

I love the fact that Demandred, ever second best, ever in LTT's shadow took it upon himself to fulfill the prophecies of the dragon or their equivalent in Shara.  I love that he played a similar role of saviour to the Sharan nation that Rand did to RL and as is his fate, came up short again.   I love that he was never able to come to terms with the fact that Ishamael was Rand's equal and opposite, not himself - to the point that he believed it inevitable and predestined that Rand would need to come and face him in the Last Battle.  I love that he never got the chance to face Rand - it fits with the great irony that while Demandred has dedicated his entire life to trying to prove himself as LTT/Rand's better, to Rand he was simply an afterthought.  I love the fact that his personality and actions changed as he rose to power in Shara - that he fell in love with a woman, that he came to care for his people, that he became fond of an insignificant old man, that he wanted to create a world after the last battle where he could protect his people.  These things I'm sure are a big factor as to why he was noted by colleagues as being suddenly more obsessed with personally killing LTT and irrationally hating him to an even greater extent - he finally had a true taste of what life could have been like if LTT had not been there to take the woman he loved, to take the role of leadership that he so desired, to take the love of nations from him.

 

I personally loved the fact that he didn't just casually wave his hand and destroy the armies of the light - it fit with his view of the world.  While he clearly did not shy away from being cruel, brutal, selfish, downright evil (killing the inhabitants of two entire AoL cities), he also had very little interest in truly annihilating the forces of the light and their world - to him DO was an alternate deity, and alternate pathway to give him a chance to prove himself as a champion of dark on the level that LTT was for the light, and an opportunity to for him to defeat his nemesis.  He wasn't particularly interested in destroying all of RL, and was more interested in slowly battering them, destroying their hope, breaking their will, using them to draw out LTT and simultaneously have LTT's forces acknowledge Demandred as his better.  He didn't need to completely destroy the forces of the light, since in his mind his god would simply remake the world in his image and subjugate them once LTT had been drawn out and defeated.  It was more of, wherever you're hiding, watch as I slowly destroy your people, crush their hope, kill the brother that your queen loves, order the death of your childhood sweetheart (via Taim obviously), kill your own brother, have our forces capture your lover and cut your children from her womb before she dies - the man he knew would see these things and have to come face him.  

 

Obviously much of his plan didn't work out as he wished, and obviously there was a lot of plot armor and convenience involved in the telling of his story, but if you accept that this was always going to be a flawed story once RJ died, then I like the overarching ideas behind his arc and his decisions.  Sure the execution was sloppy, but at this point, its what we have and I'm ok with that.

[RelentlessAttack]

I will add my two cents that as the book went on and we got more hints about Demandred's bond with the Sharans and how he relished the taste he had of having a nation truly love him, I really expected things to end differently.  My guess was that the forces of light would only overcome his armies because he was going to realize Rand was already at Shayol Ghul and thus would abandon his forces to travel there - enraged not only at Rand but also at Ishamael and the DO.  Perhaps it would have been more believable for him to die there, but I'm sure such an important decision for Lan to kill him on the battlefield was made by RJ.

[reson8]

I do wonder if anyone will find Demandreds pimp-cane in the near future. Apparently it was +10 to power....

[reson8]

Not sure if it was said in this thread, I have yet to finish reading...but I would have loved to known more about this "Bao Wylde" gimmick.

[Grond Sothron]

I have to agree with others that we as readers were horribly undercut by the lack of exposition concerning Demandred and the Sharans. While it was no surprise to me to find out that the whole time Demandred had been in Shara it begs the question as to what exactly he did over there to bring them under his rule. The few hints we were given seems to suggest he fulfilled prophecies and their dedication to him was so strong they willingly allied with Shadownspawn just to serve him.

 

So it would have been nice to at some point in the previous books show how he did this. One POV chapter would have been sufficient or at a bare minimum a few paragraphs in this book devoted solely to exposition.

 

As to how Demandred behaved in this book...wow. It was so laughably cartoonish in its 1920's twisting a mustache while tying a damsel to a train track approach that the only suspension of disbelief I could force on myself was the follow.

 

The golden sceptre angreal that he was using and he claimed that only he had bonded with to use much have had some kind of negative affect on his intelligence and grasp on reality. The calm, calculating Demandred we saw through all the other books was simply replaced by a man that had an angreal touching his mind and warping it.

 

I do believe as someone else in this thread mentioned that Demandred DID in fact adopt a "Heart of Darkness" Mr. Kurze affinity for his Sharans. He clearly showed some degree of affection for them, including loving one woman, to the point where his stated goal was to remake the world to protect the Sharans. His people. Not the Dark One's people or to serve the Shadow.

 

So while I agree that his main role in this book was sadly reduced to "giant robot with laser beams out of his eyes" and "fan service fodder" to see which blademaster was REALLY the best the only salve I can apply to my bruised feelings of "What the hell did Sanderson do to Demandred?!?" is that his golden sceptre had flaws in it that greatly affected its users mind.

[Agitel]

I have to agree with others that we as readers were horribly undercut by the lack of exposition concerning Demandred and the Sharans. While it was no surprise to me to find out that the whole time Demandred had been in Shara it begs the question as to what exactly he did over there to bring them under his rule. The few hints we were given seems to suggest he fulfilled prophecies and their dedication to him was so strong they willingly allied with Shadownspawn just to serve him.

 

So it would have been nice to at some point in the previous books show how he did this. One POV chapter would have been sufficient or at a bare minimum a few paragraphs in this book devoted solely to exposition.

 

Apparently Brandon wrote a complete plot arc for Demandred in this book, but it was ultimately cut because it was "too distracting" because Brandon was boldly introducing a lot of new information (about Demandred and the Sharans, I'm sure). That plot arc will be released in a short story entitled "River of Souls" at some point.

[mbuehner]

For my own piece of mind, i'm just assuming Demandred has been hitting the True Power rock a little too hard all this time in Shara, and he can't handle it.

[Agitel]

For my own piece of mind, i'm just assuming Demandred has been hitting the True Power rock a little too hard all this time in Shara, and he can't handle it.

 

Hopefully we'll find out more. After all, he apparently needed to weave without weaves at time, so he'd have needed to demonstrate with the TP. It was implied that the sa'angreal was messing with his head, though.

[Sabio]

 

For my own piece of mind, i'm just assuming Demandred has been hitting the True Power rock a little too hard all this time in Shara, and he can't handle it.

 

Hopefully we'll find out more. After all, he apparently needed to weave without weaves at time, so he'd have needed to demonstrate with the TP. It was implied that the sa'angreal was messing with his head, though.

His free use of the TP made me scratch my head, throughout the series all you heard about what the dangers of the TP and how Ishy was foolish for using it so much.  Other forsaken wanted no prrt of the dangers of the TP.  Yet by the end every one seemed to freely use it.  Thats why I loved the comment about was anyone denied the use of it these days.

[MountaineerWV]

I don't believe that Demandred had a series of adventures in Shara to gain his place.

 

What I do think happened is that Ishy's corrupted version of the Dragon Prophecies and possibly prophecies of the Shadow were very present in Shara. Just as Randlander's knew the Dragon would return to save mankind from the DO, I think that the Wyld prophecies were in place for the Wyld to save the world (Shara) from the Dragon.

 

When news of the Rand hit Shara and Grendy stole the rulers, the continent descended into the same sort of chaos that affected Randland - specifically on the west coast in Tarabon, Arad Doman, and the Almouth Plane. Demandred utilized the chaos and Wyld prophecies to establish himself as the Wyld and the ruler of Shara though a series of manipulations, battles, and murders until he was the only one left standing under a united Shara.

 

The civil wars, purging of leaders, and reunification of Shara probably saved the forces of Light from facing an overwhelming Sharan army.

[Entreri]

 

Demandred wanted to fight LTT as a blademaster and channeler simultaneously to prove he is #1. 

 

Blademasters: LTT (as usual #1), Demandred (the prerennial #2)...after this the rankings purely guess work.  Sammael/Bel'lal, Asmodean/ Ishamael

 

I would wager than Demandred is now as good as LTT was.

 

As a channeler Demandred would have lost, Rand Sedai is too much for even Shai'tan.  

 

As a blademaster, Rand two handed would have lost even with LTT's memories, due to lack of practice. Demandred has been praticising to prove he is also the better blademaster (see his PoV).  

 

 

Demandred to Gawyn:

 

"I was always the better general.  I will prove it here. I would have you tell that to Lews Theirn, but you will not live long enough, little swordsman".  

 

"If you do survive this and see Lews Therin, Demandred said, tell him I am very much looking forward to a match between the two of us, sword against against sword. I have improved since we last met".

 

The scar in Sammael's face...likely from LTT's mad sword skillz.

 

 

Demandred practiced the sword for 2 years in this age.Well so did Rand for nearly 2 years till he lost his hand. I think a sword fight between the 2 would have been pretty even if Rand had his hand. In a battle with the OP, Rand would have blasted him something Demandred himself admits that LTT was stronger than him in the OP.Why he went crazy searching Rand out in the Last Battle,I have no idea.

 

I should say, good point...Rand did practice for 2 years...Rand Sedai two-handed would have been pretty even, yes. Demandred did mistake Lan for LTT.  Lan and Rand, they go the extra mile to win, admantium level willpower and will always triumph over the rest. 

I could certainly see two-handed Rand Sedai beating Demandred, although if he was exhausted, probably do what Lan did.

 

Demandred needs to learn his place, #2. 

[Suttree]

And the Unreasoner over at Theoryland takes "sig of the day" honors by a wide margin.

 

 

Why Demandred decided to drop acid before donning that ridiculous armor and taking the field was beyond M'Hael, but his position was not yet secure enough to question the actions of the other Chosen.

[decrepid dragon]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A lot of WOT's battles, tactics and results don't really add up.   Rand has been dropping the forsaken like they were nothing since EotW.  As Rand Therin Telamon, he literally fought and defeated the dark one with some assistance (and even then, through what appeared to be more of sheer force of will then strength in the OP.)  It's not believable, at least not to me, that Demandred would have had any chance against him.   Though this is an aside, a lot of the commentary from the Forsaken seems to indicate that if LTT had just been a little bit more of a decent dude, a lot of this would not have happened.    

 

Anyway, Brandon's numbers with the last battle and the skirmishes leading up to it are off, and we'll just have to accept them as is. 

Demandred didn't want to fight Rand power to power, he wanted to fight Rand sword to sword to prove he was the better man.  Besides he had no way of knowing really knowing what Rands skills were like as a channler.  Yes Rand killed off a good number of forsaken, but Dem was going to be rprepared and holding one of the most powerful devices ever made and he knew rand destroyed the statue.   So Dem figured he had the deck stacked, he thought himself the better swordsman and if Rand tired a fight with the power he had a weapon that should easily destroy Rand..

 

While he def. tells Gawyan that he wants a fight with a sword, he subsequently tells Taim he wants to take LTT on with the one power.  Homeboy was cray cray 

He wanted to prove that in warfare, the one thing he was acknowledged as better at than LTT, that he was completely the master. He wanted things to go like this:

Step 1 - Defeat LTT armies with own armies. He may have outnumbered them, and trollocs are stronger than a man 1v1, but formations and different weapons, able to travel through gateways, individual initative, all that stuff that men have, while trollocs only have tight formation charge and tight formation stand still, made the fight even-ish enough to satisfy Barid.

Step 2 - Defeat LTT with OP. Be it mano a mano, or circle with sa'angreal vs circle with sa'angreal. I honestly wouldn't have been surprised if LTT had shown with a circle of 25 and callendor Demandred would have broken all but 25 people out of his circle.

Step 3 - Defeat LTT in hand to hand combat once all other threats are nuetralised.

Step 4 - Smile for the first time in 3000 years, because damn you are awesome.

 

Cray cray? Probably more than a little. Completely batty? Not quite there yet. There are some people like this in the world, they just dwell and internalise their problem more and more, making it into a bigger and more powerful emotion than it was in an infinite loop. And he has had a looooong time to build hatred for LTT.

I understand all that, and sure, that was his plan in his mind.  Still, there were just a lot of hints (and some over comments) about his possible insanity.  At the least, he had a white whale type obsession with LTT, to the detriment of the shadow's forces.   Having thought about it, his issue is better described as an obsession rather than insanity.  Dem otherwise was pretty clearly not insane.

 

My opinion is that he would have lost in a confrontation with Rand/LTT anyway....all Rand does is eat these guys for breakfast.  

I like that Moby Dick obsession comparison, it really fits.

 

Yea, having a saangreal in this series practically counts for nothing unless it is used by the forces of light. 13 Aes sedia can take Rand with an angreal captive, because they are not specifically evil, but apparently Taim and 36 dreadlords of both genders can only just force him from the field in chapter 11. I get they didn't use a circle to shield him because they don't trust each other, but still...

 

I never really thought about possible insanity til I came on these boards to be honest. But people talking about Sakarnan and his use of the true power (Which I forgot drives people insane) may very well have merit for at least amplifying his irrational behaviour. I like to think his obsession has made gains for the shadow for every loss. Nearly the entire nation of people who followed the light fought beside Demandred at the end, surely that had a lot to do with the strength of his purpose. Maybe they would have anyway (I mean, the #2 guy in the world seems like #1 if you never heard of Rand) but it makes his losing the Last Battle (WHY did they not call this chapter Tarmon Gaiden?) a lot easier to swallow.

 

The more I think about Demandred the more I discover I his character, much like Stannis in ASoIaF. Maybe his execution wasn't perfect, but the character himslef. It was ironic he never got to fight Rand, and never realised Rand's opposite was Ishmael all along, which Demandred really should have been. Another way to look at it from everything we have heard is the only thing that Ishmael had over Demandred was being naturally stronger in the OP and his will to die. And philosophy (Though how this helps a forsaken work for the DO escapes me yet).

[decrepid dragon]

Sorry, double post

[jjstraka34]

I have a co-worker who has had to wait to read the book, without giving anything away I explained to him that I thought when Demandred (literally) took the field that the book really improved. I also made sure to let it be known that he was almost Wagnerian in his over-the-top nature. And he was, but it was also what that battle needed. A complete narcissist who just so happened to be in full circle with the most powerful sa'angreal in the world. His downfall was the same as all the Forsaken, his complete overconfidence in his own abilities. But Demandred accomplished about 100 times more then any of the others. 

[Shaolin]

I'm also one who wishes Dem had more stage time. Oh well.

 

I liked the one on ones. Notice, each one had a different view of his techniques. Gawyn was thrown off by them, Galad picked up on them and was a me to deal with it, and Lan was in the void so it didn't matter, he was one with the fight. Dem even says to Galad he's good with the sword, but he has to be the sword. Played into the whole theme of letting go, Rand with his burdens, Perrin's constantly holding back, and here with the sword fight to take down Demandred.

 

Didn't really think the Logain vs Dem part was necessary, not sure what that accomplished.

[Sabio]

I'm also one who wishes Dem had more stage time. Oh well.

 

I liked the one on ones. Notice, each one had a different view of his techniques. Gawyn was thrown off by them, Galad picked up on them and was a me to deal with it, and Lan was in the void so it didn't matter, he was one with the fight. Dem even says to Galad he's good with the sword, but he has to be the sword. Played into the whole theme of letting go, Rand with his burdens, Perrin's constantly holding back, and here with the sword fight to take down Demandred.

 

Didn't really think the Logain vs Dem part was necessary, not sure what that accomplished.

Logain I think just wanted to be  hero, if he heard about future glory from mins viewing he might of thought that would be killing Dem.

[Agitel]

Didn't really think the Logain vs Dem part was necessary, not sure what that accomplished.

 

That was for Logain's own plot arc and quick character development, really. 

[Magus sedai]

First timer just want to add some thoughts, first of all rand tells you how poor the WOP was run, how little communication there was how everyone thought themselves the leader, this is supported by how moridin is always having to force them to help each other at all why would anyone think the other forsaken would tell him anything, he who has kept secret everything he's done for two years. Second in his mind LTT is the same arrogant man he had to abandon in the past his plan was perfect for that man, but rand is not that man the pattern placed mat to keep Dem away from the bore and rand, and to stop Fain two forces he could not face and win the LB, the pattern placed Perrin to stop slayer and lanfear two forces he could not see and still win a perfect counter stroke to the DO best three tools Rand for Ishy Matt for Dem Perrin for Lanfear any thoughts on this take

[papertiger]

Magus,

 

There is definitely an elegance to the pairing-off of ta'veren to threats. The Perrin/Lanfear dynamic was a nice follow-up the protracted Slayer fight, Matt dicing with Demandred was perfect as well (though I wished we had more build-up on the following battle with Fain), and Rand/DO was a necessary step up from Rand/Moridin.

 

Do you think that Rand or LTT was convinced he could actually kill the DO? It seems like the kind of arrogance Lews Therin was capable of, and I found myself wondering if a trace of that emerged from their integrated personalities. 

[smileyman]

I find it odd that people think Demandred didn't display great generalship in the Last Battle. Sure we didn't see much commanding from his POV, but we saw plenty of his commands from the POV of the Light. 

 

The armies were being pushed back and annihilated at every turn thanks to the Compulsion laid on the great generals (which was a brilliant masterstroke). He had spies placed highly in the Seanchan ranks, and I'm sure he had spies placed highly in the other armies as well. 

 

Sure he didn't take the sa'angreal and the circle and wipe out the entire army of the light, but why? That's not at all what he wants to do. It might be the goal of Moridin, who wants complete and utter destruction, but Demandred wants two things. A.) Defeat LTT, and B.) Rule.

 

Destroying the entire army would not let him accomplish A, and if he burns himself out by channeling too much, he doesn't accomplish either A or B. I don't think Demandred had anywhere near the kind of mojo to wipe out an entire army. 

[morkhon]

I find it odd that people think Demandred didn't display great generalship in the Last Battle. Sure we didn't see much commanding from his POV, but we saw plenty of his commands from the POV of the Light. 

 

The armies were being pushed back and annihilated at every turn thanks to the Compulsion laid on the great generals (which was a brilliant masterstroke). He had spies placed highly in the Seanchan ranks, and I'm sure he had spies placed highly in the other armies as well. 

 

Sure he didn't take the sa'angreal and the circle and wipe out the entire army of the light, but why? That's not at all what he wants to do. It might be the goal of Moridin, who wants complete and utter destruction, but Demandred wants two things. A.) Defeat LTT, and B.) Rule.

 

Destroying the entire army would not let him accomplish A, and if he burns himself out by channeling too much, he doesn't accomplish either A or B. I don't think Demandred had anywhere near the kind of mojo to wipe out an entire army. 

I think the compulsion on the generals was absolutely brilliant. But that was Graendal, not Demandred. I'm not sure how much they were communicating..if at all. Graendal had to have known Rand was at Shayol Ghul. Slayer did. Someone was sending those disguised people after Rand that Thom kept killing. So wouldn't she tell Dem if they were communicating?

 

But anyway...he was still a complete idiot. Yelling his challenges like a 4 year old. Completely against his established character. The duels were stupid. Especially the one against Lan. Which raises a question. I'm by no means an expert  on WOT..but Dem thinks for a moment that Lan is Rand. Can male channelers not sense the ability to channel in other males? I guess not? In any event, to die because he was too stupid to let the Sharan step in and help was beyond idiotic. That is not what a great general would do. A great general leads. A great general wins...at whatever cost.

 

Dem was an arrogant, selfish fool and he died because of it. And the whole thing with this woman he apparently loves...that came out of nowhere, developed into nothing, and lead nowhere. Maybe he just lost his mind or something, because there's really no explaining his actions, as it goes against his very nature that we've been shown up until then.

[Guest Jerry Munkelwitz]

I was in a discussion at the signing in Minneapolis with some people when the issue of where Demandred had been residing this whole time.  Most people thought Murandy too, but I said Shara and people thought I was nuts but I will tell you I have believed this since WH and it's primarily for two reasons:

 

1.  Demandred is the one Forsaken that we never really get to know much about as far as his plots and schemes IN SOME DETAIL OF ANY KIND(outside of Taim)  

2.  Shara is also the one place that is never really talked about IN SOME DETAIL OF ANY KIND(except for The Island of Madmen but Jordan has flat out said there would not be anything from there ever)  

 

So it just seemed like those 2 separate ideas went together far to well to be a coincidence.  The lack of hints was THE hint itself, in fact it was like a giant poster screaming 'DEMANDRED IS OVER HERE!!"  

 

It's also more obvious in hindsight too, it makes sense.