Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

[Finnssss22]

No one is saying she was black. She had a red/black keeper though. Again she was very close with the Red and super hard line against males. Not really a surprise that she broke with tradition in naming a Red keeper. I'll ask about the dates but I should point out you jumped in to "correct" the prevailing take on the subject with claims of proof that the stillings happened long before. Assume you are still looking for that?

So are you trying to say that Seirin played a role in the Red's activities?

Or are you trying to say that Duhara manipulated her on behalf of Jarna/The Black Ajah?

Both?

 

Here's my problem with either of these options...Chesmal.

For the first, how would Chesmal manipulate the Red's into killing Seirin if Seirin was involved with it all?

For the second, if the Black were manipulating Seirin that much (or was Black), why would Chesmal want or even need to fear being arrested by her?

 

(BTW, I said long before 981, Galina's appointment to the Head of the Red Ajah.)

 

 

Again, I'm sorry but there are just too many little things that simply don't make sense under the Theory that the Black/Jarna were manipulating the Red's.

[Suttree]

You said(a couple times) they started before 979(and in truth have claimed earlier such as with Elaida). You have moved the goal posts a number of times during this conversation which doesn't speak to a strong argument. Again everything in story points to what the prevailing take is in the fandom. The same players, same goals, same timeframe etc. There really is little about it that doesn't make sense and I've now heard from a few people who have as good of knowledge as any one who have reinforced what the wiki says . I'll be interested to hear if you find what made you question the timeframe however.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, this has become far more than a simple q/a, please take the topic to the General Discussion. If there is anything in aMoL that may provide evidence, feel free to put in a Request for a new Thread. 

[dir ehlef]

Quote by Finnssss

 

 

As was mentioned, Galina was appointed head of the Red Ajah in 981 (Tsutama was the Red Ajah head previous to this). 

 

End Quote

 

You mention that Tsutama was Highest before Galina, where did you get that from? I was under the impression that Tsutama was Highest after Galina was lost. Afaik, Tsutama was only a sitter before Galina became highest. 

[Suttree]

Tsutama was appointed highest after Galina's prolonged absence.

[dir ehlef]

Tsutama was appointed highest after Galina's prolonged absence.

Definitely. I've carefully read all your posts here, including the quote from Dom [ BTW I'm quite new to the forum , who is Dom? ] that Galina murdered the Highest before her, which would obviously mean Tsutama was not Highest before Galina.

 

Finnssss has posted that Tsutama was Highest before Galina, I am asking where he got that from.

[Luckers]

It's plausible, though certainly not proven. Of the three sitters exiled she has the strongest will, though that being said she has shown no desire to be a sitter in recent years, so it clearly doesn't hold through that her being a sitter infers she may have been Highest, or vice versa.

 

Basically my read on this is that following Siuan's letter to Sierin, Sierin mentioned the note to her keeper Duhara (whom I conected as Black to Sierin's murder long before she was revealed as Black Ajah in tGS)--who told Chesmal--who of course was implicated, being one of those involved in revealing the deaths and citing them as natural.

 

Chesmal, knowing of the fate Ishamael inflicted on Jarna following her murder of a Amyrlin, but nonetheless freaking out, chose an easier path--she convinced a red sister that the Vileness was being exposed and that Sierin needed to die to stop that (she needed do no more than clearly state this lie as truth after all to absolutely convince a light sided sister of its truth)--and yes, Tsutama seems the most likely culprit.

[PhoenixUK]

 

 

How would killing the DO take choice away from the world?

There can be no Light without the Dark and vice-verse.

No balance in only one force.

 

The only problem with that theory is the purely human evil that infested Paddan Fain. Apparently, evil is possible without the DO. So the DO is not really necessary.

But the evil of Aridhol came about as it struggled against the Shadow. WIthout the Shadow to fight, Mashadar and Mordeth etc would not have existed

[PhoenixUK]

I have two random questions

 

1) In TDR, when Egwene first uses the Dreaming Terangreal ring and sees Callandor in the Stone, she meets an old woman who convinces her to call Ba'alzamon a fool. Then, when someone (presumably Be'lal) is coming, she warns Egwene to leave, and rips off the Ring, forcing Egwene out of Telaranrhiod. Who was she? My only guess is Lanfear, although why she would want to save Egwene, I dont know

 

2) Can Mat's foxhead terangreal save him from saidin? In TFOH, there's a line about Rand thinking that it couldnt save Mat from saidin because Mat died from one of Rahvin's weaves during the raid on Caemlyn. BUT in TLOC, when Mat is in Salidar, Balthamel/Arangar/Halima tries to use saidin on him and is shocked when it doesnt work. And in AMOL, one of the people challenging Demandred (cant remember if its gawyn galad or Lan) uses one of Elayne's copies to protect them from Demandred's channelling?

[capuga]

I have two random questions

 

2) Can Mat's foxhead terangreal save him from saidin? In TFOH, there's a line about Rand thinking that it couldnt save Mat from saidin because Mat died from one of Rahvin's weaves during the raid on Caemlyn. BUT in TLOC, when Mat is in Salidar, Balthamel/Arangar/Halima tries to use saidin on him and is shocked when it doesnt work. And in AMOL, one of the people challenging Demandred (cant remember if its gawyn galad or Lan) uses one of Elayne's copies to protect them from Demandred's channelling?

Yes, it protects him from Saidin. The Halima scene proves that. In tFoH, the weave creates the lightening. The lightening itself is not a weave and that is what kills Mat. Just like they could use a weave to pick up a rock and kill him with that indirectly.

[dir ehlef]

I have two random questions

 

1) In TDR, when Egwene first uses the Dreaming Terangreal ring and sees Callandor in the Stone, she meets an old woman who convinces her to call Ba'alzamon a fool. Then, when someone (presumably Be'lal) is coming, she warns Egwene to leave, and rips off the Ring, forcing Egwene out of Telaranrhiod. Who was she? My only guess is Lanfear, although why she would want to save Egwene, I dont know

 

2) Can Mat's foxhead terangreal save him from saidin? In TFOH, there's a line about Rand thinking that it couldnt save Mat from saidin because Mat died from one of Rahvin's weaves during the raid on Caemlyn. BUT in TLOC, when Mat is in Salidar, Balthamel/Arangar/Halima tries to use saidin on him and is shocked when it doesnt work. And in AMOL, one of the people challenging Demandred (cant remember if its gawyn galad or Lan) uses one of Elayne's copies to protect them from Demandred's channelling?

1. Lanfear has said that she is not quick to kill [ those who can possibly be useful to her ] We've seen her manipulate [ and help ] quite a few major charachters through the series, and was doing the same with Egwene.

 

2. Mat's foxhead only protects against direct weaves. Mat was killed by indirect use of weaves. Similar to the rocks Demandred threw at Galad and tried to throw at Lan ( Lan moved out of the way )

[nool]

Leane is captured by Demandred and we see nothing more of her faith until she suddenly turns up on the battlefield of Merrilor. How did she escape? 

[Luckers]

Leane is captured by Demandred and we see nothing more of her faith until she suddenly turns up on the battlefield of Merrilor. How did she escape? 

 

 

Demandred lets her go to give a message to Rand. Its in the scene where she is captured.

[nool]

Leane is captured by Demandred and we see nothing more of her faith until she suddenly turns up on the battlefield of Merrilor. How did she escape? 

 

Oh crap. How did I forget that?

[Finnssss22]

 

 

Tsutama was appointed highest after Galina's prolonged absence.

Definitely. I've carefully read all your posts here, including the quote from Dom [ BTW I'm quite new to the forum , who is Dom? ] that Galina murdered the Highest before her, which would obviously mean Tsutama was not Highest before Galina.

 

Finnssss has posted that Tsutama was Highest before Galina, I am asking where he got that from.

 

 

It was a mistake on my part when I was trying to find out who the Highest was prior to Galina. I suspected is was one of the 3 exiled Red Sitters. Tsutama being the most likely candidate, given how quickly she was appointed to the position in Galina's absence, so soon after her exile was lifted.

 

 

As an added note about Cads mentioning the Vileness in aCos-19.

If all Cads was talking about was the illegal activities of the Red's, why exactly would she ask Merana and Annoura (two Gray's) if they were involved in it?

[dir ehlef]

 

 

Tsutama was appointed highest after Galina's prolonged absence.

Definitely. I've carefully read all your posts here, including the quote from Dom [ BTW I'm quite new to the forum , who is Dom? ] that Galina murdered the Highest before her, which would obviously mean Tsutama was not Highest before Galina.

 

Finnssss has posted that Tsutama was Highest before Galina, I am asking where he got that from.

 

It was a mistake on my part when I was trying to find out who the Highest was prior to Galina. I suspected is was one of the 3 exiled Red Sitters. Tsutama being the most likely candidate, given how quickly she was appointed to the position in Galina's absence, so soon after her exile was lifted.

 

 

As an added note about Cads mentioning the Vileness in aCos-19.

If all Cads was talking about was the illegal activities of the Red's, why exactly would she ask Merana and Annoura (two Gray's) if they were involved in it?

Thanks Finnssss for the reply. 

 

As to Cad's asking Merana and Annoura about involvement in a Red campaign, I'd guess that though the Reds were doing the actual dirty work, there may have been incidental help from others, sort of like the tacit agreement Sierin had. [ Sierin officially had nothing to do with the stillings, but likely knew of them, and given her highly Red leanings, was not planning to get in their way, as long as it was not officially condoned and was kept quiet. Real life politics works the same way.]

 

It is rather ironic though that Cads, who has a fairly unorthodox streak to her and has captured more channeling men than any Aes Sedai, would be concerned about the illegal stillings, yet Sierin who was very strict in sticking to the letter of the law [ however much she hated male channelers ] was willing to keep herself out of it.

[Finnssss22]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tsutama was appointed highest after Galina's prolonged absence.

Definitely. I've carefully read all your posts here, including the quote from Dom [ BTW I'm quite new to the forum , who is Dom? ] that Galina murdered the Highest before her, which would obviously mean Tsutama was not Highest before Galina.

 

Finnssss has posted that Tsutama was Highest before Galina, I am asking where he got that from.

 

 

It was a mistake on my part when I was trying to find out who the Highest was prior to Galina. I suspected is was one of the 3 exiled Red Sitters. Tsutama being the most likely candidate, given how quickly she was appointed to the position in Galina's absence, so soon after her exile was lifted.

 

 

As an added note about Cads mentioning the Vileness in aCos-19.

If all Cads was talking about was the illegal activities of the Red's, why exactly would she ask Merana and Annoura (two Gray's) if they were involved in it?

 

 

Thanks Finnssss for the reply. 

 

As to Cad's asking Merana and Annoura about involvement in a Red campaign, I'd guess that though the Reds were doing the actual dirty work, there may have been incidental help from others, sort of like the tacit agreement Sierin had. [ Sierin officially had nothing to do with the stillings, but likely knew of them, and given her highly Red leanings, was not planning to get in their way, as long as it was not officially condoned and was kept quiet. Real life politics works the same way.]

 

 

If that was the case, then there would be no need and no way that Chesmal could have manipulated the Red's to kill her.

See what I mean? All these little things just don't add up under the "Black manipulated the Red's" theory.

 

It might be the generally accepted theory but it's still only circumstantial. My theory is also only circumstantial but it supports the little details much better IMO.

 

It is rather ironic though that Cads, who has a fairly unorthodox streak to her and has captured more channeling men than any Aes Sedai, would be concerned about the illegal stillings, yet Sierin who was very strict in sticking to the letter of the law [ however much she hated male channelers ] was willing to keep herself out of it.

As much as Cad's is known for bending Tower Law, there's a reason why all the men she personally captured lived much longer than most after their Gentling.

The Red's were treating those men like animals and left to die.

That's not something Cad's would ever agree with in the slightest.

[dir ehlef]

 

 

 

 

Tsutama was appointed highest after Galina's prolonged absence.

Definitely. I've carefully read all your posts here, including the quote from Dom [ BTW I'm quite new to the forum , who is Dom? ] that Galina murdered the Highest before her, which would obviously mean Tsutama was not Highest before Galina.

 

Finnssss has posted that Tsutama was Highest before Galina, I am asking where he got that from.

 

It was a mistake on my part when I was trying to find out who the Highest was prior to Galina. I suspected is was one of the 3 exiled Red Sitters. Tsutama being the most likely candidate, given how quickly she was appointed to the position in Galina's absence, so soon after her exile was lifted.

 

 

As an added note about Cads mentioning the Vileness in aCos-19.

If all Cads was talking about was the illegal activities of the Red's, why exactly would she ask Merana and Annoura (two Gray's) if they were involved in it?

 

Thanks Finnssss for the reply. 

 

As to Cad's asking Merana and Annoura about involvement in a Red campaign, I'd guess that though the Reds were doing the actual dirty work, there may have been incidental help from others, sort of like the tacit agreement Sierin had. [ Sierin officially had nothing to do with the stillings, but likely knew of them, and given her highly Red leanings, was not planning to get in their way, as long as it was not officially condoned and was kept quiet. Real life politics works the same way.]

 

If that was the case, then there would be no need and no way that Chesmal could have manipulated the Red's to kill her.

See what I mean? All these little things just don't add up under the "Black manipulated the Red's" theory.

 

It might be the generally accepted theory but it's still only circumstantial. My theory is also only circumstantial but it supports the little details much better IMO.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It is rather ironic though that Cads, who has a fairly unorthodox streak to her and has captured more channeling men than any Aes Sedai, would be concerned about the illegal stillings, yet Sierin who was very strict in sticking to the letter of the law [ however much she hated male channelers ] was willing to keep herself out of it.

As much as Cad's is known for bending Tower Law, there's a reason why all the men she personally captured lived much longer than most after their Gentling.

The Red's were treating those men like animals and left to die.

That's not something Cad's would ever agree with in the slightest.

 

I totally agree with your second point, well stated.

 

As to your first point, try this:

 

1. Sierin actually knew and unofficially condoned the stillings. Though obviously it was not announced or known by anyone other than a select few. It is quiet likely the Reds didn't know that she approved. She knew about them but they did not know she actually approved.

 

2. The Reds were stilling men without trial, without any announcement that it was policy. They wanted it to be kept secret as it was against tower law.

 

3. Chesmal thought that Sierin was onto her for her part in killing/torturing Tamra. She may also have thought that Sierin was onto the black ajah as well, as she later brags about saving the entire black. 

 

4. Chesmal convinced the Reds that Sierin, known for strict adherence to the law, was upset with them and was going to initiate proceedings against them [ although not true, Chesmal makes the Red believe it is.]

 

5. The Reds, fearing fallout over their stillings, and not realizing Sierin actually approved, killed Sierin. 

 

Please bear in mind, as I posted earlier,  when I say the Reds, I mean only a group of them, comprised of some of their most rabid members.

 

With these 5 points, it should be clear both why there was a need for Chesmal to kill Sierin and how she got the Reds to do it.

 

If you check my previous posts, [ post 142 and 143 ] you'll see that I've attempted to show how the other details you've mentioned can indeed fit nicely with this theory. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Alright, this topic is seriously derailing the thread. Please create a new thread in the general discussion or if it involves aMoL, I can create a thread if you ask. Any further posts on the subject will be removed. 

[dir ehlef]

Who murdered Sahra and the farmlady where she was sent?

 

Where did Demandred get Sakarnen?

[fuzz1717]

I doubt your second question:  "Where did Demandred get Sakarnen?" will ever be answered. It really is strange that he managed to get a sa'angreal, as I remember some of the other Forsaken saying that if they had an angreal they would be the strongest (not sure if this is just boasting or if it is fact), so it seems strange that Demandred just happens to show up with what seems to be one of the stronger sa'angreals. Wouldn't it be cool if we got an outrigger talking about Demandred's rise to power? Too bad it'll never happen... 

 

I have a question myself though: say Lanfear managed to get Perrin to kill Moirane, and she killed Nynaeve. How would she be able to control Rand (and through him, Moridin)? Don't you need two people in the circle to exploit the flaw in Callandor?

[Suttree]

I  Wouldn't it be cool if we got an outrigger talking about Demandred's rise to power? Too bad it'll never happen... 

Well we do have the "River of Souls" piece coming out in a compilation. We know that details some background of Dem in Shara.

[dir ehlef]

As Taim goaded Demandred, the Shadow has at least 4 times as many forces as the Light, and more channelers and a super Sa'angreal to boot, and the greatest general of the AOL, how is it that the Shadow did not simply decimate the Light forces at Merrilor in the first hour?

[NitroS]

As Taim goaded Demandred, the Shadow has at least 4 times as many forces as the Light, and more channelers and a super Sa'angreal to boot, and the greatest general of the AOL, how is it that the Shadow did not simply decimate the Light forces at Merrilor in the first hour?

Good Guy syndrome. The same way that you favourite action hero gets missed by every single bullet that is shot at him in every fight sequence. The same way Rand managed to avoid being killed by every forsaken in the earlier books. Its a happy ending story. The good guys through impossible odds need to come through to win to make a better story.

[dir ehlef]

 

As Taim goaded Demandred, the Shadow has at least 4 times as many forces as the Light, and more channelers and a super Sa'angreal to boot, and the greatest general of the AOL, how is it that the Shadow did not simply decimate the Light forces at Merrilor in the first hour?

Good Guy syndrome. The same way that you favourite action hero gets missed by every single bullet that is shot at him in every fight sequence. The same way Rand managed to avoid being killed by every forsaken in the earlier books. Its a happy ending story. The good guys through impossible odds need to come through to win to make a better story.

Granted, except the staving off defeat might have been made more plausible, like if the Shaido alone had between 400-500 channelers in just one clan , how is it that 12 clans provided virtually none? Also, the Horn of Valere was only available after the battle was almost over.