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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

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Barid Bel Medar
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@finnnssss

 

Why do you think the BA weren't involved in the vileness? The books hint that they are connected with all of the players involved in both. Also this from WoT Wiki although admittedly that's not a source.

 

 

Whilst the Black Ajah was carrying out their search-and-destroy mission, it occurred to Jarna that they could manipulate the Red Ajah into doing their dirty work for them as well. She instructed Galina Casban, the head of the Red Ajah and also a Black sister, to select certain trusted Red sisters to carry out the mission. Since the Three Oaths prevented them from directly killing individuals, they usually had to circumvent the oaths. The most successful method was to gentle the man on the spot and loudly announce who and what he was before leaving him to the inevitable mob to deal with. It is possible that Sierin Vayu gave a tacit nod of approval to this mission, as she was very strongly pro-Red Ajah.

 

There were too many players involved in both to not be aware of what was happening, they happened at the same time and go hand in hand for going after a potential DR. Further although the BA didn't sanction Seirin they did kill Tamra Ospenya which was the starting point for it all. That is far too much for it to just be coincidental. Do you have a quote that says otherwise?

 

Edit:

 

Also this from the "vileness" section of the WoT Faq which groups them together:
 

 

 

New Spring, of course, concerns events around the time of the birth of Rand al'Thor, with the "program" launched by the Black Ajah against men who might be able to channel (and the resulting deaths of many senior Aes Sedai, which in turn led to many Aes Sedai reaching positions of authority at younger ages that normally would have been expected) in the background, and the whole wrapped around the first meetings of Lan and Moiraine and the revelations of how someone as junior as Moiraine became part of the search for the Dragon Reborn and why Lan gave up his personal war against the Blight to become Moiraine's Warder.

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Seemingly unrelated to the ongoing discussion, a question that bugs me for a long time. During the course of the books we have seen some DFs in positions of power, the most interesting example for me is Sheriam. And it seems they did nothing serious while having power for years, that seems strange. Can we assume that such people did some subtle things to help Shadow in unseen ways, or they just waited for a perfect moment to do something serious (and probably be uncovered)?

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@wRar

 

I think most DFs were as surprised as anyone to find the Last Battle on their doorsteps. Many probably joined for petty reasons to advance their own personnel agendas. For instance we know with Sheriam:

 

TGS Ch. 25

 

But why had the end of days had to come now of all times? Others in her association spoke of the glory and great honor of being alive at this time, but Sheriam didn't agree. She'd joined to rise in White Tower politics, to have the power to punish those who spited her. She'd never wanted to participate in some final reckoning with the Dragon Reborn, and she'd certainly never desired to have anything to do with the Chosen!
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@finnnssss

 

Why do you think the BA wasn't involved in the vileness? The books hint that they are connected with all of the players involved in both. Also this from WoT Wiki although admittedly that's not a source.

 

 

Whilst the Black Ajah was carrying out their search-and-destroy mission, it occurred to Jarna that they could manipulate the Red Ajah into doing their dirty work for them as well. She instructed Galina Casban, the head of the Red Ajah and also a Black sister, to select certain trusted Red sisters to carry out the mission. Since the Three Oaths prevented them from directly killing individuals, they usually had to circumvent the oaths. The most successful method was to gentle the man on the spot and loudly announce who and what he was before leaving him to the inevitable mob to deal with. It is possible that Sierin Vayu gave a tacit nod of approval to this mission, as she was very strongly pro-Red Ajah.

 

There were too many players involved in both to not be aware of what was happening, they happened at the same time and go hand in hand for going after a potential DR. Further although the BA didn't sanction Seirin they did kill Tamra Ospenya which was the starting point for it all. That is far too much for it to just be coincidental. Do you have a quote that says otherwise?

 

Edit:

 

Also this from the "vileness" section of the WoT Faq which groups them together:

 

New Spring, of course, concerns events around the time of the birth of Rand al'Thor, with the "program" launched by the Black Ajah against men who might be able to channel (and the resulting deaths of many senior Aes Sedai, which in turn led to many Aes Sedai reaching positions of authority at younger ages that normally would have been expected) in the background, and the whole wrapped around the first meetings of Lan and Moiraine and the revelations of how someone as junior as Moiraine became part of the search for the Dragon Reborn and why Lan gave up his personal war against the Blight to become Moiraine's Warder.

 

 

A few reasons.

First, none of the 3 sitters that were exiled in 985 (Toveine, Tsutama and Lirene) were Black Ajah.

 

Second, because Galina did not become the head of the Red Ajah until 981. The illegal stillings were going on long before this (see the fourth point as to why this matters) and continued until 985.

 

Third, Alviarin was appointed head of the Black Ajah in 982. If the Black ajah was indeed manipulating the Red's to the degree you think, then they also would have put a stop to it with Jarna's death at Ishy's hands in 982.

 

Fourth, Jarna only started killing lucky men once she learned in 979 that the Dragon was reborn from Tamra. Again, the illegal stillings were already going on previous to this (unless you believe the Red's killed as many men as is hinted at in just a 5-6 year span). So trying to say that Jarna/the Black Ajah manipulated the Red's into doing their "dirty work" for them makes no sense as they didn't even have any "dirty work" to do yet.

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Whoa I've always heard them linked by the old guard around here and just assumed it was correct. You have a quote for the start date of the illegal stillings from "long before" that 979 date? Would be stoked to see it.

 

Always assumed Galina tricked the Red's down that path under orders from Jarna. They certainly were aware of both things happening simultaneously and as I said even in the WoT database they are grouped together. The end date doesn't matter really as it would be something the Red's would have been on board with by that point and wouldn't have ended on Alviarin's order. Regardless if you have that quote it is obviously incorrect.

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Whoa I've always heard them linked by the old guard around here and just assumed it was correct. You have a quote for the start date of the illegal stillings from "long before" that 979 date? Would be stoked to see it.

 

Always assumed Galina tricked the Red's down that path under orders from Jarna. They certainly were aware of both things happening simultaneously and as I said even in the WoT database they are grouped together. The end date doesn't matter really as it would be something the Red's would have been on board with by that point and wouldn't have ended on Alviarin's order. Regardless if you have that quote it is obviously incorrect.

I'm going to have to search but I'm almost positive it came from something Egwene mentioned from the secret histories.

If you really think about it all, it just doesn't make sense that the Black were heavily involved in the Red's activities.

As was mentioned, Galina was appointed head of the Red Ajah in 981 (Tsutama was the Red Ajah head previous to this). I highly doubt she would have risked the wrath of Ishy and allowed the stillings to continue if she knew about them.

I see no other conclusion other than it was a separate secretive faction within the Red's (no Blacks) that was carrying it out. A faction that included Elaida, as was revealed by Toveine in tPoD-26.

 

Elaida's timeline is important because she left for Andor and attached herself to Morgase before Rand was born, before Moiraine and Siuan were raised to the Shawl.

For Elaida to be involved, you have to conclude that the Red's were stilling men previous to 979.

 

Also, the Vileness does not just refer to one thing. It refers to everything that was going on from the deaths of multiple Amyrlin's, men channlers being stilled illegally, lucky men dieing, the death of Tamra's secret hunting party, most of it all in a very short period of time.

 

Logically, it simply just doesn't make sense that the Black Ajah were manipulating the Red's anywhere near the degree being mentioned.

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IMO whether Galina was head yet doesn't matter. Jarna had already started the one and most likely pulled the strings on the second and again there was far too much crossover between the two groups to say there was no influence or knowledge of the two events. It essentially serves the same purpose so it makes perfect sense.

 

Also the BA doesn't have the power to stop something like that on a dime once started. Again I have always seen the two linked, that's why I was surprised to see something else suggested. If you have the start date quote as far before 979 there is no way to argue against it though.

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Who gentled Oweyn?  Was it Moraine?

 

In the PoD  it says that Toveine and Elaida were involved in something even the tower considered too much [ Toveine thinks it was still necessary.] While Toveine was birched and exiled for 20 years, Elaida got away scot free. 

 

In the prologue to ACoS, Elaida in discussing how many men were found channeling in 25 years, Alviarin says 24, Elaida says only 16 were official, but admits to herself that her own knowledge of that time was more personal.

 

In KoD about Tsutama "She had possessed a very good reputation as a Sitter, at least before her involvement in the disgusting events that led to her downfall"

 

From this info, I'd gather that Toveine and Tsutuma were sitters who ordered a secret campaign against men found channelling and Elaida was likely the enforcer who did the actual deeds.

If I remember correctly, in a previous book, Moraine promised Thom that she would reveal the Aes Sedai that gentled his nephew, Oweyn.  Did she refrain from this upon her returned because she was the one that did it, but she fell in love and married Thom?  Maybe she didn't want to hurt him.

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Wouldn't it have been great if Elaida was one of the Damani used by the Seanchan in the Last Battle?  Picture if Elaida was present, standing at attention like a soldier, and wearing an Adam around her neck when Egwene had that meeting with Fortuana in which she gave her a piece of her mind.  That would have been classic.

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IMO whether Galina was head yet doesn't matter. Jarna had already started the one and most likely pulled the strings on the second and again there was far too much crossover between the two groups to say there was no influence or knowledge of the two events. It essentially serves the same purpose so it makes perfect sense.

 

Also the BA doesn't have the power to stop something like that on a dime once started. Again I have always seen the two linked, that's why I was surprised to see something else suggested. If you have the start date quote as far before 979 there is no way to argue against it though.

I edited in a bunch of stuff. Re-read my post, especially about Elaida's timeline and involvement.

The start date for the killing of lucky men is 979, that's when Jarna gets the info that the Dragon is reborn from Tamra.

The start date, according to Elaida's timeline, for the illegal stillings has to be previous to that.

 

Elaida herself mentions 24 men in the last 20 years, only 16 being recorded. Alviarin says that 24 is a dangerous number, just as dangerous as 2000. Seems to suggest there were even more previous to that but that's pure speculation.

 

Like I said, given all the info and timelines at play, it just doesn't make sense that the Black played a heavy role in the Red's activities.

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IMO whether Galina was head yet doesn't matter. Jarna had already started the one and most likely pulled the strings on the second and again there was far too much crossover between the two groups to say there was no influence or knowledge of the two events. It essentially serves the same purpose so it makes perfect sense.

 

Also the BA doesn't have the power to stop something like that on a dime once started. Again I have always seen the two linked, that's why I was surprised to see something else suggested. If you have the start date quote as far before 979 there is no way to argue against it though.

I edited in a bunch of stuff. Re-read my post, especially about Elaida's timeline and involvement.

Just heard back from Terez  and yes the prevailing sentiment is they are linked. Apparently Dom has written a long dissertation on it. Galina was one of the main instigators on the Red's who were an easy target even if they were unwilling accomplices. Cads said the whole things started "after" the Aiel War ended.

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IMO whether Galina was head yet doesn't matter. Jarna had already started the one and most likely pulled the strings on the second and again there was far too much crossover between the two groups to say there was no influence or knowledge of the two events. It essentially serves the same purpose so it makes perfect sense.

 

Also the BA doesn't have the power to stop something like that on a dime once started. Again I have always seen the two linked, that's why I was surprised to see something else suggested. If you have the start date quote as far before 979 there is no way to argue against it though.

I edited in a bunch of stuff. Re-read my post, especially about Elaida's timeline and involvement.

 

 

Just heard back from Terez  and yes the prevailing sentiment is they are linked. Apparently Dom has written a long dissertations on it. Galina was one of the main instigators on the Red's who were an easy target even if they were unwilling accomplices. Cads said the whole things started "after" the Aiel War ended.

 

 

No, that's drawing too much from Cad's quote IMO. She says the Vileness started after the Aiel war, which is absolutely true but the illegal stillings were only part of the greater whole that became known as the Vileness.

 

 

Again, the appointment of Galina as the head of the Red Ajah in 981 is important. You can not believe she would have allowed the stillings to continue, if she knew about them, and risk the same thing happening to her as did Jarna.

 

It just doesn't make sense logically that the Black was manipulating the Red's that heavily.

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Going to need a quote and not personnel interpretations/guesses at this point. I trust the people who are saying otherwise(and we have a start quote from a character, Cads was referring to the stillings in the quote) and have some more questions out via pm. You said they started "long before" 979 so pull the proof. You seem to be leaning towards not manipulating "that heavily" verse the original take of them playing no part in the stillings. Again they had so many of the same players and served the same purpose so it really is odd to suggest there is no connection. Will let you know if I hear more.

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Going to need a quote and not personnel interpretations/guesses at this point. I trust the people who are saying otherwise(and we have a start quote from a character) and have some more questions out via pm. You said they started "long before" 979 so pull the proof. Will let you know if I hear more.

Fair enough but it's not just about a quote.

There's a big picture here consisting of a lot of information. There is also no direct quote to dispute my interpretation either. No where is it implied or said outright that the Black manipulated the Red's into their illegal activities (other than the unsanctioned, singular involvement by Chesmal in killing Sierin).

Saying that they did is just as much speculation as what I presented. Difference being, the rest of the information seems to support my conclusion more logically.

 

You seem to be of the misconception that my conclusion is being disputed by one of fact. They're not.

 

The only thing I need to back up is the "long before" statement I made. The rest is sound.

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Not true. We have a quote from the books which disputes it from Cads(who was referring to the stillings, not the killing of lucky men), we have the goals and players connected. We have the timing of the two starting in almost unison after the Aiel War. It is ridiculous to suggest they were running parallel with the one having no influence on the other.

 

On the flip we have you apparently guessing at dates(as you can't show where you are getting the info) and making assumptions. At first you claimed you had quotes to back it, now that seems not to be the case. Unless you can show clear proof the stillings started "long before" 979 you really don't have much ground to stand on. There is nothing to suggest that Elaida's start date "has to be prior to that". It is just more guess work. Anyway we have both stated each side and heard from others weighing in. Until more info is introduced it seems pointless to continue.

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The Vileness she refers to is not just the stillings.

 

It also, in no small part, refers to the deaths of 3 Amyrlin Seat's in a 9 year period. Two of which were under suspicious cercumstances.

It refers to the mysterious deaths of Meilyn, Kerene, Aisha, Ludice, Jarna and Valera during this same time.

It refers to the mysterious deaths of lucky men all over the land.

It refers to the illegal stillings and exile of the 3 Red Sitters.

 

 

No, Cads is not just referring to the stillings when she mentions the Vileness IMO.

 

Elaida attains the Shawl in 973 (about 5 years before Moiraine and Suian do) and immediately attaches herself to Morgase as soon as it becomes evident that she will win the Lion Throne. That is in 974ish (about 2 years after Tigraine's disappearance in 972). This also complies with Moiraine's timeline in the tower where Elaida leaves for Andor within a year of Elaida gaining the Shawl.

 

It is stated more than once that Elaida rarely left Andor/Morgase's side after becoming Morgase's advisor. Her short visit to the WT when Moiraine and Suian tested for the Shawl being one of the few times mentioned.

The others being when Morgase trains at the Tower and then when she accompanies Elayne there.

 

So the question is, when exactly did Elaida get out to participate in those illegal stillings?

The only timeframe available seems to be in her first year with the Shawl in 973, before she went to Andor.

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@finnnssss

 

Why do you think the BA wasn't involved in the vileness? The books hint that they are connected with all of the players involved in both. Also this from WoT Wiki although admittedly that's not a source.

 

Whilst the Black Ajah was carrying out their search-and-destroy mission, it occurred to Jarna that they could manipulate the Red Ajah into doing their dirty work for them as well. She instructed Galina Casban, the head of the Red Ajah and also a Black sister, to select certain trusted Red sisters to carry out the mission. Since the Three Oaths prevented them from directly killing individuals, they usually had to circumvent the oaths. The most successful method was to gentle the man on the spot and loudly announce who and what he was before leaving him to the inevitable mob to deal with. It is possible that Sierin Vayu gave a tacit nod of approval to this mission, as she was very strongly pro-Red Ajah.

 

There were too many players involved in both to not be aware of what was happening, they happened at the same time and go hand in hand for going after a potential DR. Further although the BA didn't sanction Seirin they did kill Tamra Ospenya which was the starting point for it all. That is far too much for it to just be coincidental. Do you have a quote that says otherwise?

 

Edit:

 

Also this from the "vileness" section of the WoT Faq which groups them together:

  <

blockquote>

>New Spring, of course, concerns events around the time of the birth of Rand al'Thor, with the "program" launched by the Black Ajah against men who might be able to channel (and the resulting deaths of many senior Aes Sedai, which in turn led to many Aes Sedai reaching positions of authority at younger ages that normally would have been expected) in the background, and the whole wrapped around the first meetings of Lan and Moiraine and the revelations of how someone as junior as Moiraine became part of the search for the Dragon Reborn and why Lan gave up his personal war against the Blight to become Moiraine's Warder.

 

<quote>

A few reasons.

First, none of the 3 sitters that were exiled in 985 (Toveine, Tsutama and Lirene) were Black Ajah.

 

Second, because Galina did not become the head of the Red Ajah until 981. The illegal stillings were going on long before this (see the fourth point as to why this matters) and continued until 985.

 

Third, Alviarin was appointed head of the Black Ajah in 982. If the Black ajah was indeed manipulating the Red's to the degree you think, then they also would have put a stop to it with Jarna's death at Ishy's hands in 982.

 

Fourth, Jarna only started killing lucky men once she learned in 979 that the Dragon was reborn from Tamra. Again, the illegal stillings were already going on previous to this (unless you believe the Red's killed as many men as is hinted at in just a 5-6 year span). So trying to say that Jarna/the Black Ajah manipulated the Red's into doing their "dirty work" for them makes no sense as they didn't even have any "dirty work" to do yet.

1. Although none of the 3 sitters were black, that doesn't mean they weren't manipulated. Considering how much some members hate men in general and are rabid about channeling men, it would take little persuasion to get them to decide that exceptional measures needed to be taken. Elaida has shown that she interprets the law very loosely when it suits her needs/ambitions, [ she was ready to do the same later to the black tower ] it wouldn't surprise me that some members of her ajah are similar.

 

2. Galina would not need to be head of the Red to sway others who hated men like she does. It would be like placing a mouse in front of hungry cats. I'm not convinced that the stillings started long before 981. Caddy's POV suggests this too.

 

3. The blacks did not need to do much manipulation of the Reds here, they merely needed to inform them that a rash of men channeling was starting and suggest that drastic measures would need to be taken. Naturally, Galina would be aware of who the most receptive members of her ajah to this would be and would have gone to them. If anything, once they began the program, the Reds would have been almost impossible to stop.

 

3a. Jarna was killed for killing lucky men, I'm not certain that the black were afraid of being sanctioned for killing channelers, especially if they'd gotten the Reds to do the dirty work. The black would likely have plausible deniability by saying the Reds did it themselves.

 

4. It is indeed likely that a rash of channeling men would have appeared when the Dragon was born and could well have happened in only a 5-6 year span. The Wheel would be spinning out channelers because of the approaching Tarmon Gaidon. So all the dirty work would have been done in that smaller time slot when it served the black's purposes.

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Whoa I've always heard them linked by the old guard around here and just assumed it was correct. You have a quote for the start date of the illegal stillings from "long before" that 979 date? Would be stoked to see it.

 

Always assumed Galina tricked the Red's down that path under orders from Jarna. They certainly were aware of both things happening simultaneously and as I said even in the WoT database they are grouped together. The end date doesn't matter really as it would be something the Red's would have been on board with by that point and wouldn't have ended on Alviarin's order. Regardless if you have that quote it is obviously incorrect.

I'm going to have to search but I'm almost positive it came from something Egwene mentioned from the secret histories.

If you really think about it all, it just doesn't make sense that the Black were heavily involved in the Red's activities.

As was mentioned, Galina was appointed head of the Red Ajah in 981 (Tsutama was the Red Ajah head previous to this). I highly doubt she would have risked the wrath of Ishy and allowed the stillings to continue if she knew about them.

I see no other conclusion other than it was a separate secretive faction within the Red's (no Blacks) that was carrying it out. A faction that included Elaida, as was revealed by Toveine in tPoD-26.

 

Elaida's timeline is important because she left for Andor and attached herself to Morgase before Rand was born, before Moiraine and Siuan were raised to the Shawl.

For Elaida to be involved, you have to conclude that the Red's were stilling men previous to 979.

 

Also, the Vileness does not just refer to one thing. It refers to everything that was going on from the deaths of multiple Amyrlin's, men channlers being stilled illegally, lucky men dieing, the death of Tamra's secret hunting party, most of it all in a very short period of time.

 

Logically, it simply just doesn't make sense that the Black Ajah were manipulating the Red's anywhere near the degree being mentioned.

I don't know that the black were heavily involved, it is likely that relatively little was needed to get the Reds going.

 

As I explained in my previous post, Galina and the blacks may have thought there was little risk.

 

It is indeed possible, and even likely, that only part of the Reds [ including the sitters ] were involved, that does not preclude the black from instigating it, if anything, it would be easier, as these actions were not officially that of the Red as a whole, only a "renegade" group. 

 

Elaida may well have been able, in Caemlyn, to have eyes and ears open for any rumors of suspect men nearby. Although she was close to Morgase, that doesn't mean she couldn't have stepped out for a day or two to nearby towns to do her work. It isn't that she stilled all 24 men during that period all by herself. She could well have done only a few stillings and still been not missed in Caemlyn. Thus the timeline is not an issue.

 

As a side point, you mention that Tsutama was Highest before Galina, where did you get that from? I was under the impression that Tsutama was Highest after Galina was lost.

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@Finnssss

 

Again more assumptions with the timeline. We don't know near enough info about Elaida's involvement to make the statement you are. In fact the conclusion you come to doesn't follow at all.

 

I also find it odd that you are adamant that Cads statement doesn't count because she is grouping the the lucky guy killings and illegal stillings together as one and yet you're initial post was disputing any BA involvement and claiming they were seperate.

 

At this point the timing is the only leg you have to stand on really. You came in to this thread to apparently correct something that is the prevalent understanding in the fandom. You need more than just a personnel interpretation, again please go find proof of the timing in quotes to back your theory.

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@Finnssss

 

Again more assumptions with the timeline. We don't know near enough info about Elaida's involvement to make the statement you are. In fact the conclusion you come to doesn't follow at all.

 

I also find it odd that you are adamant that Cads statement doesn't count because she is grouping the the lucky guy killings and illegal stillings together as one and yet you're initial post was disputing any BA involvement and claiming they were seperate.

 

At this point the timing is the only leg you have to stand on really. You came in to this thread to apparently correct something that is the prevalent understanding in the fandom. You need more than just a personnel interpretation, again please go find proof of the timing in quotes to back your theory.

You realise that neither conclusion actually has hard proof right?

You are basically telling me that my conclusion is wrong or that I don't have a leg to stand but at the same time there is not a single piece of direct evidence to prove me wrong or that the conclusion that the Red's were manipulated by the Black's in the illegal stillings is right either.

 

So lets just back it up on the "no leg to stand on" comments shall we.

 

The conclusion that the Black's manipulated the Red's into the stillings is an ASSUMPTION! An assumption that, as I have outlined previously, I do not feel is supported.

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See I always find it odd how you seem to forget how these things start. You jumped in with...

 

Some corrections, only the killing of lucky men was actually sanctioned by Jarna, a mistake Ishy killed her for.The Black Ajah did NOT manipulate the Red's into stilling men illegally, they did that on their own.

In order to tell me I was wrong. Now you actually try to say:

 

You are basically telling me that my conclusion is worng...You realise that neither conclusion actually has hard proof right?

So lets just back it up on the "no leg to stand on" comments shall we.

Actually I never said that. I claimed the timing issue was the "only leg" you have to stand on, meaning if you could find proof as you claimed initially you had, then you would have a case. The rest of the evidence all points the other way however.

 

Edit:

 

Just got this in PM from Dom.

 

You're right about the gentlings. They happened somewhere between 979 and 984, during the 5 years of reign of Sierin Vayu. If it started before, we don't know. Possibly, it started only by 981 NE (when Galina became Highest), but we don't know. Some believe like me it's the opposite: it was put in motion around 979 NE under Sierin but by 981 Ishamael had killed Jarna and ordered Alviarin to stop all murders and hunting by Blacks, and Galina had the Highest murdered to take her place, in order to try to stop, or at least slow down or control more the extent of the Red's campaign.

In addition to a rather epic essay on the matter. ;p Edited by Suttree
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You're right about the gentlings. They happened somewhere between 979 and 984, during the 5 years of reign of Sierin Vayu. If it started before, we don't know. Possibly, it started only by 981 NE (when Galina became Highest), but we don't know. Some believe like me it's the opposite: it was put in motion around 979 NE under Sierin but by 981 Ishamael had killed Jarna and ordered Alviarin to stop all murders and hunting by Blacks, and Galina had the Highest murdered to take her place, in order to try to stop, or at least slow down or control more the extent of the Red's campaign.

Sierin Vayu was Gray, not Red and she was killed by Red's who were manipulated by Chesmal on her own, unbeknownst to the Black Ajah (this is a fact!).

So you'll forgive me if I'm a little confused by this statement of Dom's.

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What's confusing? Seirin was a Grey who was close to the Red. She named Duhara who was Red and BA as her Keeper. That gave the BA a direct line in to the situation. Nothing here says Sierin was the one ordering it. It just says that's when it started.

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What's confusing? Seirin was a Grey who was close to the Red. She named Duhara who was Red and BA as her Keeper. That gave the BA a direct line in to the situation. Nothing here says Sierin was the one ordering it. It just says that's when it started.

So what are you/Dom suggesting here? That Seirin was actually Black or what?

And where is the quote that specifically refers to the start date of the illegal stillings?

The only exact date I have found so far was for the killing of lucky men, which started in 979, following the interrogation/torture of Tamra.

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No one is saying she was black. She had a red/black keeper though. Again she was very close with the Red and super hard line against males. Not really a surprise that she broke with tradition in naming a Red keeper. I'll ask about the dates but I should point out you jumped in to "correct" the prevailing take on the subject with claims of proof that the stillings happened long before. Assume you are still looking for that?

Edited by Suttree
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