Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

Recommended Posts

it might also help if I knew how strong Damer was meant to be compared to the other Asha'man.

 

Hmmm, I believe that Damer is said to be one of the stronger Asha'man. Out of the ones with Rand, I recall him being the strongest - until he is surpassed by Narishma, who is quite strong. He's not Logain strong, and a ways below Rand, certainly. 

 

I'd say he was above average in power, but not super-powerful. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you say Rand took on a circle of 13, was that when he was in the box?  From my understanding he only was able to do that because some had tied off their weaves to join the battle which made it weaker then had 13 people been actively channeling to maintain it.  From the sounds of it had all 13 stayed to shield Rand he wouldn't of been able to overcome it.  Or are you talking about another incident?

 

The forsaken are powerful but their biggest weaknesses are they are selfish and arrogant, unlike people for the light who would sacrifice themselves the Forsaken won't and they have no respect for anyone of the age.  I am not trying to make you hate the forsaken or make it seem like they are all bumbling idiots.  But I think most of their downfalls can be contributed to simply thinking ever channeler from this age has no idea what they are doing,  For Dem at the cleanisng I think it was more of a shock to as soon as he arrived had to run for his life as he discovered someone could detect male channeling.  When he encountered the 3 walking, he didn't know it was an ashaman.  Dem even mentions sooner or later the old man had to tire, but being linked he wasn't going to tire very fast since he could use the strength of the others. He also thought how he had to be careful that any use of the power would warn Al'thor since he knew someone could detect his channeling.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When you say Rand took on a circle of 13, was that when he was in the box?  From my understanding he only was able to do that because some had tied off their weaves to join the battle which made it weaker then had 13 people been actively channeling to maintain it.  From the sounds of it had all 13 stayed to shield Rand he wouldn't of been able to overcome it.  Or are you talking about another incident?

in AMoL Rand goes to help with the battle near Tarwin's Gap but gets attacked by a circle of some kind. He mentions it's a full circle but I'm assuming he meant 13 and not 72 (else I WOULD have to murder something) and he assumes that Taim was a part of it.

 

Rand was able to hold off a shield they were attempting to slam down around him but not destroy it. He was then able to hurl that shield away long enough to escape via Gateway. Then hypothesizes that he may have been able to win that fight but it would've weakened him enough for the DO to be able to beat him easily.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the end tho rand was in full control of his powers but he also had that zen like quality and was in full acceptance of himself, I'd like to think that harmony only increased his "efficiency" in using the one power and thus make him able to accomplish more

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think Emperor has a point. I except that Demandred' heart wasnt in the fight and can remember some comment along the lines of a general shouldn't get his hands dirty, but, going of how powerful Rand is at the end and since he and Dem are nearly the same in strength and knowledge ( though even dem admits that LTT was more skilled) i think Dem should of been able to destroy the circle of three without breaking a sweat and it shouldn't of been a exuse to drive him off, plus dont forget though he wasnt that interested in being there he did have a desire to get his hands on Rand, who had previously been very hard to find.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course he would of called Rand powerful, just think how much of the one power he was channeling.  We know that was all Rand was doing but Dem made a comment on he had to be careful on channeling since it would warn Al'Thor.  So he seems to be assuming Rand is taking a part in the battle while using the statue.  So its possible Dem might of been able to beat the three linked but since his gateways blew up he knew someone could detect male channeling so he had to becareful.  If a strong male channeling was detected it would give him away.  So he was forced to hold back some.  He also made a comment about how the asha'man would have to tire sooner or later, so you hold back and wait for your enemy to weaken.  Rand was powerful there because he was using the most powerful device ever created for a man.  But also we have no way of knowing if Rand really could of beat the 13,   We have no way of knowing if Rand really would of been able to beat the 13, had he tried he could of quickly discovered he was wrong.  Rand's wasn't necessarily super powerful but he relied more on what LTT knew which gave him some advantages. 

Edited by Sabio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know it doesn't quite compensate for the difference in power, but wasn't Rand using an extremely powerful Angreal at the time? That's what he was using at Maradon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course he would of called Rand powerful, just think how much of the one power he was channeling. We know that was all Rand was doing but Dem made a comment on he had to be careful on channeling since it would warn Al'Thor. So he seems to be assuming Rand is taking a part in the battle while using the statue. So its possible Dem might of been able to beat the three linked but since his gateways blew up he knew someone could detect male channeling so he had to becareful. If a strong male channeling was detected it would give him away. So he was forced to hold back some. He also made a comment about how the asha'man would So yes Rand was powerful there because he was using the most powerful device ever created for a man. But also we have no way of knowing if Rand really could of beat the 13, he thinks the old man would have to tire sooner or later, so again it seems dem was simply going to try to weaken him and then kill him when he tired. We have no way of knowing if Rand really would of been able to beat the 13, but he could of quickly discovered he was wrong had he tried. Rand's wasn't necessarily super powerful but he relied more on what LTT knew which gave him some advantages.

I think it was pretty clear to all the foresaken that once Rand started the cleansing he would be pretty much out of the game in the battle.

And we know the foresakens powers are exaggerated in the series, but not that much, anyone should be able to defeat 3 average third agers even if linked, remember linking doesnt double or triple the power you can use, its entirely possible that Demandred was still stronger on his own and with his deeper knowledge of the power should of made short work of them.

Edited by damandred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know it doesn't quite compensate for the difference in power, but wasn't Rand using an extremely powerful Angreal at the time? That's what he was using at Maradon.

The little fat man? I cant think of any reference to it being anything more than a average angreal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All I know is Dem's POV thought about killing the three when he saw the 3 walking but hesitated because it could warn Al"thor.  So from that statement it seems to me he thought Al"thor was more active then just cleansing.  But that's just my interpretation.  And I am not saying Dem couldn't of overpowered the three had he gone full out only he had to becareful since he knew someone was able to detect male channeling.  So had he used full power he quite possibly could ended up running for his.  So he was forced to hold back in his fight with the 3, which made it more of an even fight. It would of done him no good to kill the three if he gets blasted from the sky when his channeling was detected.  So the goal was to use the power sparingly until he could get a shot at Rand. 

 

For his slowing the shielding so he could get away, two things helped him the fat man angreal which he even said "he was tapping nearly all the power he could through it and the fact the shield was made from the male half so he had a small advance warning.  But its not like had he stayed he would of been able to stop the shield for very long.  LTT's memories along with the angreal and the small advanced warning was all that saved him.  When it was all women trying to shield Rand you saw he was quickly overpowered and captured.   Had it been a shield woven by 13 women he would of had no advanced warning.  So the big thing is Dem in his fight had to hold back, Rand in his fight could simply go all out and usually had the aid of something like the fat man to boost his power.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I know it doesn't quite compensate for the difference in power, but wasn't Rand using an extremely powerful Angreal at the time? That's what he was using at Maradon.

The little fat man? I cant think of any reference to it being anything more than a average angreal.

 

while BS seem to think that the acrobat angreal moiraine and lanfear had are different, i think he made a mistake. if they are identical, you could make an inference (while not conclusive) that the fat man provided a fair amount of strength to able to allow rand to fend of lanfear (with an angreal close to be a sa'angreal.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, it is extremely difficult to compare two different scenarios with different factors involved. 

 

Rand's fight was one that was relatively simple. He was fighting all out against a frontal assault with the aid of an angreal (and the fat man is considered relatively powerful. Of course it's no Callandor, but it apparently was quite powerful.) Secondly, we don't know how powerful the circle was. I think it's safe to say it was more powerful than Rand alone, but by how much? You also have to take into account the skill of the leader of the circle. Taim, perhaps but we don't really know. 

 

Besides, Rand didn't really do much great. He held it off just long enough to get himself the hell out of there and nearly got himself killed. He went into the battle pissed off and wanting to take down Taim at all costs. He failed at that pretty miserably. 

 

Demandred's case was different. As mentioned, he wasn't too bothered about being at the Cleansing with the amounts of power being used. At the time, his desire to kill Rand was still cold and abiding. He would of course give it a go but he was not obsessed with doing it himself or any time soon. Earlier in the book he ordered Asha'man to kill him, and his PoV's in WH and KoD show him relatively unhurried. It is only towards the end of the series starting in tGS where he changes and becomes obsessed. 

 

Furthermore, he was not only up against Damer. Narishma's circle with Callandor and Elza was using Cadsuane's detection ter'angreal to locate male channeling, flinging lightning and such about. Demandred uses a gateway to shift positions after dodging Damer's attack, but finds himself assaulted straight away because they know his location almost immediately. He was also weary of Rand taking part in the battle - the Forsaken didn't know what would happen, it's the reader who knows Rand was out of commission. Using the full extent of his strength to overpower Damer's group would - as mentioned - have been risky, as it could have drawn Callandor's wrath down upon him. Aginor could testify Callandor's effectiveness in the battle, if he wasn't blasted into oblivion. 

 

 

Now, could he have put up a better fight? Possibly, but he chose not to. The comparison between the Rand's battle and the Cleansing has too many different variables to accurately gauge competence. It does say that Rand is much more willing to risk himself, and is perhaps reckless, while Demandred is cool and composed - or perhaps cowardly, depending on how you view it, but that's about it. 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if this has been asked before but did BS mess up the Warder bond?  Androl and Pevara seem to be able to communicate through the bond.  We know the Aes Sedai bond they can communicate emotions but they seem to actually talk to each other.  Is this a mistake on BS part of is it because a man bonded a woman?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if this has been asked before but did BS mess up the Warder bond?  Androl and Pevara seem to be able to communicate through the bond.  We know the Aes Sedai bond they can communicate emotions but they seem to actually talk to each other.  Is this a mistake on BS part of is it because a man bonded a woman?

.

I believe that was the result of BOTH of them bonding one another, making them both Warders to each other. Now, whether BS completely invented this, or was in Jordan's notes, I do not know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure that's the only dual bond directly mentioned let alone shown in the whole series.  I don't think Rand bonds anyone.  But just imagine what Egwene would have done if she knew there was a way to read Rand's mind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Indeed, it is an effect of the dual bond. Pevara and Androl are the first and only people who have this bond, so it's new territory for everyone.

 

I tend to think it was an RJ creation. The dual bond is something that has been up in the air well before Brandon Sanderson came onto the scene. However, RJ often as not made things simple, like the multiple bonds with Rand, which some theorized to have some significant effect. Turns out it didn't do anything different from one bond (beyond the 3 sets of emotions). 

 

So while it is logical that two overlapping bonds would intensify the ability to read the others' emotion, we have seen RJ do things differently. 

 

Still, I tend to think that it was something RJ intended to some degree. Sanderson likely put his own twist on it, and it may not have been exactly how he shows it to be, but at the core, I think there was something there. 

 

Possibly just a little note like: Asha'man and Aes Sedai dual bond. Connection intensified and more in sync. 

 

Or something to that effect, which Sanderson had to elaborate on. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, 4 people bonded Rand; first Alanna (Lord of Chaos), then his 3 lovers at once (Winter's Heart).

 

 

my last question::

 

in Memory of Light Prologue, Moridin tells the other Forsaken to put behind grudges.  Did he mean grudges with each other or grudges with anyone?

 

 

unrelated questions::

What happens to Setalle Ann?  from what I have skimmed, no scene mentions her fate.

She was part of Faille's caravan, as well as Olver and some of Mat's Band and some of Faille's group.  Perrin finds Faille in the Epilogue.  Olver gets found by Heroes after he blows the Horn.  What happened to the rest (that survived the Blasted Lands)?

 

 

edit::

relating to warder bond.

suppose there are 3 or more number of people in a group with at least 2 of them being channelers.  and suppose each person in the group is bonded by the rest through a "share technique".

Could each of them read each others thoughts?

Edited by mb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, 4 people bonded Rand; first Alanna (Lord of Chaos), then his 3 lovers at once (Winter's Heart).

 

 

 

If you really want to get technical, one could add Moridin to make it 5.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I meant warder bond.

 

about Rand & Moridin, it seems to me that their intersecting balefires bonded them; not either bonding the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why did Egwene's Flame of Tar Valon kill ALL of the Sharans?

 

From what she said, she instinctively knew that the spell wouldn't have as strong effect at all on people who hadn't given themselves over to the shadow.

 

Now, to my knowledge, the Sharans HADN'T given themselves over to the shadow. At least not in the all important way the series seems to preport. They weren't turned and they hadn't vowed themselves to the Dark One. They thought Demandred was the good guy who would bring them prosperity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I'm not a fan of what happened there, and can only think of a few possibilities.

 

It's possible that the weave worked based on Egwene's perception. So it harmed anyone who she perceived to be the 'bad guys'. 

 

The weave could just be extremely brutal in 'judgement'. It might not take into account that they technically were following Demandred, not the Shadow, and some, if not most, weren't evil. It may be: they were fighting against the Dragon Reborn's cause (who is the Champion of 'Light') so they get toasted. 

 

Really though, I'm not convinced by any of those. It seems like it was just a convenient way to get rid of a major challenge that the Light would have serious trouble against.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, 4 people bonded Rand; first Alanna (Lord of Chaos), then his 3 lovers at once (Winter's Heart).

 

 

my last question::

 

in Memory of Light Prologue, Moridin tells the other Forsaken to put behind grudges.  Did he mean grudges with each other or grudges with anyone?

 

 

unrelated questions::

What happens to Setalle Ann?  from what I have skimmed, no scene mentions her fate.

She was part of Faille's caravan, as well as Olver and some of Mat's Band and some of Faille's group.  Perrin finds Faille in the Epilogue.  Olver gets found by Heroes after he blows the Horn.  What happened to the rest (that survived the Blasted Lands)?

 

 

edit::

relating to warder bond.

suppose there are 3 or more number of people in a group with at least 2 of them being channelers.  and suppose each person in the group is bonded by the rest through a "share technique".

Could each of them read each others thoughts?

 

1) If you want specifics, we don't know. But Moridin is almost certainly referring to grudges amongst each other (the Forsaken) and perhaps to a wider extent, any of the Shadow's people they might dislike. 

 

2) I believe Brandon Sanderson stated in an interview that she survived. Beyond that, I don't know. Try searching for Setalle here for more info: http://www.theoryland.com/wheel-of-time-interview-search.php

 

3) No idea, it's been too long since I've read it to recall specifics. 

 

4) We know too little about the 'dual-bond' concept and how it works to even guess at that. You'd have to ask someone from Team Jordan. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I'm not a fan of what happened there, and can only think of a few possibilities.

 

It's possible that the weave worked based on Egwene's perception. So it harmed anyone who she perceived to be the 'bad guys'. 

 

The weave could just be extremely brutal in 'judgement'. It might not take into account that they technically were following Demandred, not the Shadow, and some, if not most, weren't evil. It may be: they were fighting against the Dragon Reborn's cause (who is the Champion of 'Light') so they get toasted. 

 

Really though, I'm not convinced by any of those. It seems like it was just a convenient way to get rid of a major challenge that the Light would have serious trouble against.

Now, I think the sharans should have beaten the Aes Sedai (with maybe Egwene managing to take Taim down with her.) because Mat was saying stuff like "I'm not sure if we could win even if the Seanchan showed up" and this is after he learned that the Aes Sedai had beaten all the Sharans.

 

Why wouldn't the Damane be able to turn the tide there? Without the Sharans Team Shadow wouldn't have had any major channeling networks left. Unless they meant like Demandred focusing all of his attention on them instead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah never understood that, Mat was barely holding on without the Seanchan, so seems if they showed up he should be able to overwhelm the shadow.  With as powerful as the Seanchan were made out to be in the last book I don't see how they didn't take over all of Randland.  Not to mention that whole plan of taking the Seanchan out of the battle and having them leave until the spy is found left me scratching my head.  So had the spy never been found they would of sat out the entire battle? 

 

 

I agree with Barid, the "flame of Tar Valon" taking out just the sharan channelers just seemed an easy way to remove the sharrans from the picture and to make Egwene a hero. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah never understood that, Mat was barely holding on without the Seanchan, so seems if they showed up he should be able to overwhelm the shadow.  With as powerful as the Seanchan were made out to be in the last book I don't see how they didn't take over all of Randland.  Not to mention that whole plan of taking the Seanchan out of the battle and having them leave until the spy is found left me scratching my head.  So had the spy never been found they would of sat out the entire battle? 

 

 

I agree with Barid, the "flame of Tar Valon" taking out just the sharan channelers just seemed an easy way to remove the sharrans from the picture and to make Egwene a hero. 

 

The impression I got was that Tuon was meant to come back earlier. But Mog's compulsion of the generals encouraging them to want to leave and Tuon's own doubts kept her from returning until Min dealt with her.

 

ANd if the Seanchan had been used from the very beginning then Demandred would've probably altered his strategy and probably fought more defensively. Mat's strategy seemed to hinge on needing Demandred to be agressive so he would bring all of his forces into the same area and thus could be surrounded.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...