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A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY
Barid Bel Medar

Ask Simple questions, get simple answers (aMoL version covering the entire series)

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So you are saying that people can only do "bad" if the DO exists and only "good" if the Creator exists?

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So you are saying that people can only do "bad" if the DO exists and only "good" if the Creator exists?

More like they wouldn't know the difference, nor would it matter.

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Why wouldn't they know the difference?? You are just finding different ways of saying the same thing.

 

What is it about the existence of the DO that gives people the capability of choosing or recognizing "evil"?

 

And how do they retain that choice once he is completely sealed away from any influence?

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Think of the bible story adam and eve if adam didnt sin and take the fruit then their would only be good in the world and people wouldnt know what bad is.

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The way I read the "no evil w/o the DO" is similar to the Catholic version of Original Sin. In Genesis, in the Garden, Adam and Eve (and presumably all other humans in existence) would have lived out their entire lives never having eaten the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge (following God's command) if the Serpent had not convinced Eve to taste the fruit and give it to Adam. Without the DO, humans of Randland would obey the Creator's commands and live in the Light (always finding beauty in everything, even tragedy).

 


"And how do they retain that choice once he is completely sealed away from any influence?"

 

Herid Fel could probably explain it better, but to me it is simply a matter of the wrong language. If you embrace the thought that the Creator never intended mankind to be without choice, then the original prison of the DO (made by the Creator) was created to allow the DO some influence on humans (but not the Pattern itself). The Bore and the Seals allowed the DO to influence the Pattern, not just men. Rand reforging the prison (sealing it as good as new) takes the world back to the status quo that it was at the beginning which does not mean sealed away completely, just sealed away to only influence the hearts of men not the Pattern itself.

 

We even see from Rand's thought's in aMoL that the era of the AoL before the bore was no where close to perfect. Lanfear's lust for power and Demandred's envy both pre-date the Bore being drilled, so obviously the DO was able to influence the hearts of some people before he was even discovered and this was with a "Creator-quality" prison before the Bore.

 

So to reiterate, killing the DO would leave no choice (no serpent in the Garden) where as fixing the prison back to "Creator-quality" allows only some little influence which allows for choice to be present.

 

I don't know if this is satisfactory to you, but it's the best I can explain how I think of it.

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How did Rand waltz out of the camps with the face of a very powerful and dangerous Forsaken?  Will Rand be hunted and slayed by the very civilization that he saved? 

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My question is earlier on in the series (sorry can't remember which book) we see Graendal meet Rodel Ituralde. It seems inconceivable that she wouldn't use this opportunity to compel him. Yet I never saw the effect of this. He seemed to do the lights work until the end (fighting the Seanchan at first and then fighting the Shadow). Do we know what if any the effects of her compulsion were? Or was this simply a scene never followed up on?

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How did Rand waltz out of the camps with the face of a very powerful and dangerous Forsaken?  Will Rand be hunted and slayed by the very civilization that he saved? 

Why do you think the general population(heck even AS for that matter) would have any idea what Moridin looks like?

Edited by Suttree

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Think of the bible story adam and eve if adam didnt sin and take the fruit then their would only be good in the world and people wouldnt know what bad is.

Actually when they ate the apple they gained the knowledge of good and evil.

 

Nothing in Genesis says that Satan is the source of evil in the world.

 

I think RJ was going for something along these lines (Mieren/Biedomon going for the TP - Adam and Eve taking the apple) but the way it was explained in AMoL took a simplistic tangent that doesn't make sense.

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The way I read the "no evil w/o the DO" is similar to the Catholic version of Original Sin. In Genesis, in the Garden, Adam and Eve (and presumably all other humans in existence) would have lived out their entire lives never having eaten the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge (following God's command) if the Serpent had not convinced Eve to taste the fruit and give it to Adam. Without the DO, humans of Randland would obey the Creator's commands and live in the Light (always finding beauty in everything, even tragedy).

 

 

"And how do they retain that choice once he is completely sealed away from any influence?"

 

Herid Fel could probably explain it better, but to me it is simply a matter of the wrong language. If you embrace the thought that the Creator never intended mankind to be without choice, then the original prison of the DO (made by the Creator) was created to allow the DO some influence on humans (but not the Pattern itself). The Bore and the Seals allowed the DO to influence the Pattern, not just men. Rand reforging the prison (sealing it as good as new) takes the world back to the status quo that it was at the beginning which does not mean sealed away completely, just sealed away to only influence the hearts of men not the Pattern itself.

 

We even see from Rand's thought's in aMoL that the era of the AoL before the bore was no where close to perfect. Lanfear's lust for power and Demandred's envy both pre-date the Bore being drilled, so obviously the DO was able to influence the hearts of some people before he was even discovered and this was with a "Creator-quality" prison before the Bore.

 

So to reiterate, killing the DO would leave no choice (no serpent in the Garden) where as fixing the prison back to "Creator-quality" allows only some little influence which allows for choice to be present.

 

I don't know if this is satisfactory to you, but it's the best I can explain how I think of it.

The problem with all of this is that you need to make things up to patch holes in the logic.

 

Cenn Buie is xenophobic because the DO is alive?

 

It's this worldview that actually takes free will away from humanity, because it says that their "choices" are dependent on the influences of supernatural beings and that they wouldn't be able to make choices independent of the DO or Creator.

 

That is the exact opposite of Eden. Eve was tempted by Satan, but her choice was her own. Adam chose with no serpent to be seen.

 

According to you, Eve owed her free will to Satan as much as she did God, definitely not what is being taught there. Genesis doesn't translate to AMoL.

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ok, i must have missed this somewhere 

but is Berisha (the aes sedai who sent Faile and the others to the blight) a darkfriend? 

 

and i don't understand this, someone in the group reasoned that the only reason they were sent there was because of the bubble of evil.. because otherwise they wouldn't have willingly entered the Blight

 

so how did that work out reall?  was that bubble of evil just happenstance or was it sent by the shadow or did i miss something entirely? 

 

 

 

also another question, where is stated anywhere in the series that seonid is a lesbian? 

i must have missed this too 

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How did Rand waltz out of the camps with the face of a very powerful and dangerous Forsaken?  Will Rand be hunted and slayed by the very civilization that he saved? 

Why do you think the general population(heck even AS for that matter) would have any idea what Moridin looks like?

The combatants in the camp weren't just the general population.  They were active in the war against the Forsaken.  It seems at points near the ending that Nyneve wasn't in on the switcharoo.  She even expressed regret that Rand was the one dying and the "other" one seemed like he may make it.  Why didn't she place Moridin under arrest?

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How did Rand waltz out of the camps with the face of a very powerful and dangerous Forsaken?  Will Rand be hunted and slayed by the very civilization that he saved? 

Why do you think the general population(heck even AS for that matter) would have any idea what Moridin looks like?

The combatants in the camp weren't just the general population.  They were active in the war against the Forsaken.  It seems at points near the ending that Nyneve wasn't in on the switcharoo.  She even expressed regret that Rand was the one dying and the "other" one seemed like he may make it.  Why didn't she place Moridin under arrest?

Well that is a different question than you asked the first time. Realistically how many people even know what he looks like from stories, Ishy had a new body. It's not as if most of the combatants now the faces of each forsaken. Also did Nyn even know he was up and ready to leave?

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How did Rand waltz out of the camps with the face of a very powerful and dangerous Forsaken?  Will Rand be hunted and slayed by the very civilization that he saved? 

Why do you think the general population(heck even AS for that matter) would have any idea what Moridin looks like?

The combatants in the camp weren't just the general population.  They were active in the war against the Forsaken.  It seems at points near the ending that Nyneve wasn't in on the switcharoo.  She even expressed regret that Rand was the one dying and the "other" one seemed like he may make it.  Why didn't she place Moridin under arrest?

This didn't make sense to me either. Surely Nyneave and Moirane knew that the second body that emerged from the pit was one of the Forsaken, so why was he nursed to health and allowed to escape? Perhaps they did plan to question him but Alivia helped him escape? That should raise an alarm though.

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My question:

 

Is it absolutely sure thing that everyone in WoT world are reborn as exactly same person in each Third age or any other time? I mean that will Rand be Rand again after one full rotation of the Wheel? I know that he has been many persons, i.e. Lews Therin in age of legends. But will the Dragon of the next Last Battle be exactly the same soul, and will it ever be? I would like a very clear answer for this question that RJ himself has said or written, because I have a theory on one thing that depends on this answer.

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My question:

 

Is it absolutely sure thing that everyone in WoT world are reborn as exactly same person in each Third age or any other time? I mean that will Rand be Rand again after one full rotation of the Wheel? I know that he has been many persons, i.e. Lews Therin in age of legends. But will the Dragon of the next Last Battle be exactly the same soul, and will it ever be? I would like a very clear answer for this question that RJ himself has said or written, because I have a theory on one thing that depends on this answer.

The soul is the same, but we know per RJ it can be someone else besides Rand who is reborn.

 

RJ

(transcription) ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn. [And that's the phrase that ended my jubilation.]

 

AAN'ALLEIN

It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

ROBERT JORDAN

It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Edited by Suttree

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How would killing the DO take choice away from the world?

There can be no Light without the Dark and vice-verse.

No balance in only one force.

 

The only problem with that theory is the purely human evil that infested Paddan Fain. Apparently, evil is possible without the DO. So the DO is not really necessary.

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How did Rand waltz out of the camps with the face of a very powerful and dangerous Forsaken?  Will Rand be hunted and slayed by the very civilization that he saved? 

Why do you think the general population(heck even AS for that matter) would have any idea what Moridin looks like?

The combatants in the camp weren't just the general population.  They were active in the war against the Forsaken.  It seems at points near the ending that Nyneve wasn't in on the switcharoo.  She even expressed regret that Rand was the one dying and the "other" one seemed like he may make it.  Why didn't she place Moridin under arrest?

This didn't make sense to me either. Surely Nyneave and Moirane knew that the second body that emerged from the pit was one of the Forsaken, so why was he nursed to health and allowed to escape? Perhaps they did plan to question him but Alivia helped him escape? That should raise an alarm though.

 

Because they're faced with the possibility that either Rand thought Moridin worth saving enough to carry him out (apparantly what they did think) or that Moridin had carried Rand out (again they'd want to know why).  He wouldn't be considered much of a threat as they should (between them) sense that he's burned out, so the light guard also made sense.  I guess the reason we didn't hear an alarm is because there wasn't enough time for it to be raised.  As Rand leaves most people are distracted by the funeral, Cads notices and determines that it's Rand in there...

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How would killing the DO take choice away from the world?

There can be no Light without the Dark and vice-verse.

No balance in only one force.

 

The only problem with that theory is the purely human evil that infested Paddan Fain. Apparently, evil is possible without the DO. So the DO is not really necessary.

 

 

Eg-freaking-zactly.

 

There were great, great pains to make us very aware of an evil that existed quite apart from the DO.

 

I really need to know how much of the cosmology of Rand's confrontation with the DO came from the notes or RJ's hand and how much of it BS had to interpret, because I have to believe RJ had a better handle on such a fundamental part of his story. I think I understand where RJ was going with it, but as it was written there are a lot of holes after just a cursory examination of what actually happened.

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How would killing the DO take choice away from the world?

There can be no Light without the Dark and vice-verse.

No balance in only one force.

 

The only problem with that theory is the purely human evil that infested Paddan Fain. Apparently, evil is possible without the DO. So the DO is not really necessary.

 

 

Eg-freaking-zactly.

 

There were great, great pains to make us very aware of an evil that existed quite apart from the DO.

 

I really need to know how much of the cosmology of Rand's confrontation with the DO came from the notes or RJ's hand and how much of it BS had to interpret, because I have to believe RJ had a better handle on such a fundamental part of his story. I think I understand where RJ was going with it, but as it was written there are a lot of holes after just a cursory examination of what actually happened.

 

It's possible that Rand made a mistake rather than that the author misunderstood the cosmology. Rand had an impossibly difficult role. He stands in for the Creator but lacks the Creator's infinite wisdom. Maybe some future Dragon would destroy the DO. Conversely, maybe the DO will win in some future turning of the Wheel. Rand could have been wrong about the impossibility of the DO's victory. And maybe even the DO's victory would not break the Wheel of Time, and could be reversed in a future age.

Edited by OneWhoMustBeLeashed

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