Lord D's Fates worse than death for bad girls thread (full spoilers)

[BFG]

Here's a link to the original discussion.

 

 

 

 

[Lord D]

Has anyone noticed how many times the evil or nasty women in WoT suffer fates worse than death?  The bad guys, such as Rahvin, Aginor etc, die in battle quickly, but evil women really suffer.  Here are the fates worse than death of evil or nasty women.

Liandrin of the Black Ajah - after she tried to overpower an injured Moghedion, she was tightly shielded by Moggy, Compelled to not suicide and given to a fat cook as a scullery maid for punishment.  Later, she's captured by the Seanchan and made da'covale to Suroth, who definitely wasn't treating her well.

Galina of the BA - captured by the Shaido after Dumai's Wells.  Sammael later brings an Oath Rod, which allows Therava to completely dominate Galina.  After a failed escape attempt in Malden, the Shaido are heading back to the Aiel Waste with Galina nothing more than Therava's pet.

Moghedion - made into Nynaeve, then Egwene's damane, which is not a nice fate.  When released by Aran'gar, she is kept by Shaidar Haran for a long time, during which he rapes her, among other things (RJ confirmed this).  Was basically a slave to Moridin, then she was captured by the Seanchan, and made damane, which will be much worse than serving Nynaeve and Egwene.

Sevanna, chief of the Shaido - captured by the Seanchan at the Battle of Malden, and made da'covale.

Elaida - captured by the Seanchan in the attack on the WT, and made damane.  We later see her submitting to Tuon tearfully.

Suroth - for attempting to kill Tuon, she is given to the DeathWatch Guard "to serve them as they wish", and kept by them as a pet until her hair has grown long enough to be sold on the block.  Since other people objected, I will only comment that, IMO, Suroth was raped by the DW guard with probability 99%.

Semirhage - completely humiliated by Cadsuane - to her, this would be a fate worse than death.  Later, BF'd by Rand.

Lanfear - suffers some unpleasantness when captured by the Finns, and was Moridin's slave.  Probably also raped by Shaidar Haran.

 

Graendal - probably raped by Shaidar Haran, then killed, and re-created in a really ugly body.  Then her Compulsion rebounds on her, so she ends up as Aviendha's Compelled slave.

 

Mesaana - Had her mind wiped by Egwene in TAR, and has been reduced to effectively a vegetable. 

 

 I read a lot of fantasy/horror books outside WoT, and WoT has to be the only series where so many evil female characters suffer such terrible fates.

[Lord D]

On Moggy's rape by SH, the relevant reference is at the WoT FAQ

http://www.steelypip...-haran-mog.html

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I thought Shaidar Haran had his way with Mesaana as well.

[Lord D]

I thought Shaidar Haran had his way with Mesaana as well.

I think that's a possibility, not a probability.  After the flame war over whether Suroth was raped last time I brought this up, I'm going to be cautious in my claims.

[MauricXe]

Conclusion: RJ was scorned by many women lol

[BFG]

Seems like a pretty good summary to me.

 

Makes you wonder what Morgase did that was so bad? 

 

Morgase - compelled into Rahvins slave, raped by him and Valda, captured by the Shaido, (before finding her happy ever after.)

[Barid Bel Medar]

Some would say giving birth to Gawyn and/or Elayne was bad enough. 

[BFG]

harsh (and what, no Galad?)

 

Although I was debating adding Elayne to the above, kidnapped, stabbed, nearly raped and nearly having an involuntary caesaerion...  Or even Egwene, captured by Seanchan and a'damed, captured, beaten (repeatedly)...  Moiraine, spends 7 books having her power eaten by the Finns, finally rescues and is doomed to spending the rest of her years bowing and scraping to every newly promoted sister (maybe)... 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, I said SOME people. I actually like Elayne, and Gawyn was tolerable enough. (Galad wasn't Moragase's son, Gawyn and Elayne share the same father with him :p) 

 

But yes, it is not only restricted to the evil women, the good women also get their share of torture.

 

Definitely a lot more than the male characters.

 

The only ones that have gone through similar circumstances are -

 

Rand: all the time basically. 

 

Logain: With his 13x13 adventures, his Severing and after he was Healed until Egwene let him go. 

 

Asmodean: Although he was in far more acceptable living conditions, he was still technically a captive, and Lanfear did put that shield on him. 

 

Galad: For all of one chapter when the Questioners had him captive. 

 

Jachim "Bors" Carradin: He had it the worst of the men besides perhaps Rand. Tortured to death by Millie Skane.

[BFG]

With Galad there's possibly an argument for nature/nurture - Morgase certainly feels responsible in Towers for his inability to see grey, which is his most annoying characteristc :D (wonders if that's enough to cover the ridiculous mistake).  I actually quite like Elayne and ended up feeling sorry for Gawyn, his reaction to Rand isn't that different to Eg's reaction to Mat, both of which are infuriating, but just about understandable.  But that's headed off topic, so I'll leave it.

[Matthew79]

 

 

I thought Shaidar Haran had his way with Mesaana as well.

I think that's a possibility, not a probability. After the flame war over whether Suroth was raped last time I brought this up, I'm going to be cautious in my claims.

I'd be more inclined to believe Messana was raped out of the two, given Shaidar Harans treatment of Mog.

[Lord D]

 

 

 

I thought Shaidar Haran had his way with Mesaana as well.

I think that's a possibility, not a probability. After the flame war over whether Suroth was raped last time I brought this up, I'm going to be cautious in my claims.

I'd be more inclined to believe Messana was raped out of the two, given Shaidar Harans treatment of Mog.

I don't think SH had enough time; I thought Mesaana screamed because he punished her severely, ie, hit her.  Rape would require a bit too much time, and the WT is full of Aes Sedai, who might happen to notice something funny going on.

[Lord D]

Egwene's capture by the Seanchan in tGH is not a nice scene at all.  The same goes for Rand's capture by the WT Aes Sedai, and then his capture by Semirhage, especially when he almost killed Min.  Off topic, but I think the DO should have let Semi make Rand kill Min before letting Rand seize the True Power.  The above 3 scenes were the most horrifying for me in the series.

[Aleator77]

I think it's just more of a "big deal" and noticeable when it happens to the women.  I mean, look at Mat.  He gets raped repeatedly by Tylin, has his eye ripped out of his skull, etc...but no one makes a fuss.  Thom is crippled by a fade, Sammael had his very soul tainted by Mashadar (probably unpleasant.)  Bad things happened to lots and lots of people throughout the series.  

 

I will agree that the rape is far more prevalent among the women...however that is sadly fairly realistic.  Also, a lot of it never really happened on screen and we just assume it took place.  Can't really blame RJ for that.  For example, why assume that Lanfear got raped, but not the male "chosen" who failed and were resurrected?  It's just as possible that they were punished in the same way...however since they're male people don't consider it.

[Lord D]

I don't think Mat got raped; it counts more as sexual harassment, and it wasn't as if he didn't enjoy Tylin's attentions.  Yes, Rand loses a hand, and Mat loses an eye, but since they both live ok, I don't regard these as fates worse than death.  The male Forsaken who were revived didn't seem to be in the DO's bad books as much as the female Forsaken, so I doubt they got punished as badly.

[esvath]

Well, Perrin got Faile as wife, that is one cruel torture by RJ :P

 

On more serious note, Ashaman who crazy and killed by Rand (or Taim) also suffered terrible fate. Rand giving Fedwin Morr poisoned tea is one of sad scenes for me...

[avernite]

I don't think Mat got raped; it counts more as sexual harassment, and it wasn't as if he didn't enjoy Tylin's attentions.  Yes, Rand loses a hand, and Mat loses an eye, but since they both live ok, I don't regard these as fates worse than death.  The male Forsaken who were revived didn't seem to be in the DO's bad books as much as the female Forsaken, so I doubt they got punished as badly.

Dunno about you, but loudly saying you don't want to have sex with someone then being forced at knifepoint (and with the added prior threat of starvation) to do so anyway isn't 'just' sexual harassment, it's as close to textbook rape as I can think of.

 

As to the male forsaken: Balthamel got to be girlified, not sure how that should count. The others, namely Aginor and Ishy, indeed didn't get overly punished... but I think that's partly because the DO had time. Time to let them act as Forsaken rather than trying to rein them in.

[Lord D]

 

I don't think Mat got raped; it counts more as sexual harassment, and it wasn't as if he didn't enjoy Tylin's attentions.  Yes, Rand loses a hand, and Mat loses an eye, but since they both live ok, I don't regard these as fates worse than death.  The male Forsaken who were revived didn't seem to be in the DO's bad books as much as the female Forsaken, so I doubt they got punished as badly.

Dunno about you, but loudly saying you don't want to have sex with someone then being forced at knifepoint (and with the added prior threat of starvation) to do so anyway isn't 'just' sexual harassment, it's as close to textbook rape as I can think of.

 

As to the male forsaken: Balthamel got to be girlified, not sure how that should count. The others, namely Aginor and Ishy, indeed didn't get overly punished... but I think that's partly because the DO had time. Time to let them act as Forsaken rather than trying to rein them in.

If you want to see what real woman on man rape looks like, I'd encourage you to read the Black Jewels series by Anne Bishop.  Dorothea SaDiablo was an Evil woman who raped men, and also had them castrated (the Brotherhood of the Quill).  There was also a Ring of Obedience, which could torture men where they least liked it.  As to Mat, his objection to Tylin was that she was a queen, and he preferred tavern girls.  He could have escaped her had he really wanted to.

[Jaglover]

If Seanchen society develops as many hope in a few decades Moghideen might be set free, so not entirely sure this qualifies as a fate worse than death.

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

I don't think Mat got raped; it counts more as sexual harassment, and it wasn't as if he didn't enjoy Tylin's attentions.  Yes, Rand loses a hand, and Mat loses an eye, but since they both live ok, I don't regard these as fates worse than death.  The male Forsaken who were revived didn't seem to be in the DO's bad books as much as the female Forsaken, so I doubt they got punished as badly.

Dunno about you, but loudly saying you don't want to have sex with someone then being forced at knifepoint (and with the added prior threat of starvation) to do so anyway isn't 'just' sexual harassment, it's as close to textbook rape as I can think of.

 

As to the male forsaken: Balthamel got to be girlified, not sure how that should count. The others, namely Aginor and Ishy, indeed didn't get overly punished... but I think that's partly because the DO had time. Time to let them act as Forsaken rather than trying to rein them in.

If you want to see what real woman on man rape looks like, I'd encourage you to read the Black Jewels series by Anne Bishop. Dorothea SaDiablo was an Evil woman who raped men, and also had them castrated (the Brotherhood of the Quill). There was also a Ring of Obedience, which could torture men where they least liked it. As to Mat, his objection to Tylin was that she was a queen, and he preferred tavern girls. He could have escaped her had he really wanted to.

Are you seriously trying to argue about "degrees" of rape? This has been discussed in great detail before. It was rape, RJ even called it such.

 

ACoS

It was too much. The woman hounded him, tried to starve him; now she locked them in together like... like he did not know what. Lambkin! Those bloody dice were bouncing around in his skull. Besides, he had important business to see to. The dice had never had anything to do with finding something, but... He reached her in two long strides, seized her arm, and began fumbling in her belt for the keys. "I don’t have bloody time for -" His breath froze as the sharp point of her dagger beneath his chin shut his mouth and drove him right up onto his toes.

 

"Remove your hand," she said coldly. He managed to look down his nose at her face. She was not smiling now. He let go of her arm carefully. She did not lessen the pressure of her blade, though. She shook her head. "Tsk, tsk. I do try to make allowances for you being an outlander, gosling, but since you wish to play roughly... Hands at your sides. Move." The knifepoint gave a direction. He shuffled backward on tiptoe rather than have his neck sliced.

 

"What are you going to do?" he mumbled through his teeth. A stretched neck put a strain in his voice. A stretched neck among other things. "Well?" He could try grabbing her wrist; he was quick with his hands. "What are you going to do?" Quick enough, with the knife already at his throat? That was the question. That, and the one he asked her. If she intended to kill him, a shove of her wrist right there would drive the dagger straight up into his brain. "Will you answer me!" That was not panic in his voice. He was not in a panic.It was too much.

He tried to leave/physically move her and she forced him to have sex at knife point. Contrary to what you claim above he tried to leave and was held against his will. There is no way you can define this as anything else besides rape. Reverse the genders and then see how you feel about that situation.

[Matthew79]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I thought Shaidar Haran had his way with Mesaana as well.

I think that's a possibility, not a probability. After the flame war over whether Suroth was raped last time I brought this up, I'm going to be cautious in my claims.

I'd be more inclined to believe Messana was raped out of the two, given Shaidar Harans treatment of Mog.

I don't think SH had enough time; I thought Mesaana screamed because he punished her severely, ie, hit her. Rape would require a bit too much time, and the WT is full of Aes Sedai, who might happen to notice something funny going on.

I imagine the the room was warded in someway, besides that though Shaidar Haran did leave his armor fall off. I some how doubt he was just doing it to Get comfortable, especially if it was a quick visit.

[esvath]

Mat's flippant attitude makes readers (well, at least me) take his experiences less serious than we (I) should. The loss of his eye, this incident with Tylin, even his marriage with Tuon. I bet if Mat is married to Faile, we (I) still can laugh at his marital life.

 

I still like Perrin better than Mat, though :P

[jcb1234]

Padan Fain suffered the worst fate in history

 

Asha Men are all crazy and paranoid to the max. Seems like a worse than death situation to me

 

Rand was the craziest of all. But overcame it because hes the main character.

[Aulduron]

Matt was definitely raped. I inferred that Mesaana was as well.