The Seanchan: Past, Present and Future.

[Suttree]

Adding to what Thrasy says there is rebellion in Arad Doman as well.

[Kahsm]

 

 

I wonder the same thing that was originally posted.  Why could we not have given a scene with Hawkwing and Tuon?  If not then, at least in the epiloge which was really really short considering the volumes of story of the past 20 years.  I have my own idea of how that dialog might have gone down, but unfortunately, I'm just a fan of the series.

I find it more interesting to not have the scene in the book. At least we know the dialogue did happen.

 

 

I thought Hawkwing would tell her to stop leashing channelers. Which she'd have to obey right? I mean some of Hawkwings BFF(and I mean _F_)s are channelers... That'd be pretty huge...

[Morden]

 

 

I wonder the same thing that was originally posted.  Why could we not have given a scene with Hawkwing and Tuon?  If not then, at least in the epiloge which was really really short considering the volumes of story of the past 20 years.  I have my own idea of how that dialog might have gone down, but unfortunately, I'm just a fan of the series.

I find it more interesting to not have the scene in the book. At least we know the dialogue did happen.

 

I thought Hawkwing would tell her to stop leashing channelers. Which she'd have to obey right? I mean some of Hawkwings BFF(and I mean _F_)s are channelers... That'd be pretty huge...

Wouldnt surprise me if he pointed out to her that his original hatred and distrust of the Aes Sedai was caused by Ishamaels compulsion. Which means she is essentially the plans of one of the Forsaken by leashing channellers, but as we never saw what was said and its doubtful we will have any sort of conclusion all we can do is speculate.

[XXX]

 

The Seachan smashed the combined Randland armies in Avi's vision.

And that vision is now defunct.

>Pretty sure that militarily they are capable of it.

If you recall the vision, it began with the Aiel attacking the Seanchan alone. One several generations later did the other nations join in. By then the Aiel had been weakened. That won't be the case not, since the Aiel can lead a unified force of all nations in one strike right at the beginning. The military situation has changed drastically.

Nothing has changed militarily in this future except that the Aiel would not go and pick a fight with them now.

Like I said, the military situation is very different.

Where is it said that only sparklers become damane in Seachan. They check every woman of age for ability to channel IIRC

Its said all over the books. What do you mean where is it said? Their learners become sul'dam. That's why there are so many sul'dam to each damane.

 

 

 

Avi's vision is defunct but not the military situation.Not at all.It remains the same. In the vision the Aiel attacked the Seachan on their own but crucially they were not losing.It was a stalemate.Whatever loses the Aiel took the Seachan took as well. The war only changed when the other lands entered the war which allowed the Seachan to farm damane by the hundreds from the others.That is what caused the loss.

 

Plus the Aiel attacked after decades after the LB which allowed them to rebuilt strength.Right now at the end of LB they are decimated.The AS are decimated.Hundered of channelers from the BT and WO;s and Sea folk are missing in the last book for the LB so it is doubtful they will appear to fight the Seachan.The Seachan are without doubt the strongest force in Randland now they hardly took loses as they entered only at the end of the LB when there was no Forsaken using balefire to wipe tens of thousands.

[XXX]

After Fortuona complies with her agreement with Egwene, and since it's agreement made between rulers in front of witnesses, it does constitute a treaty, I very much doubt the Empire will have the strength to re-take the Seanchan homelands.  Within the next year after the Last Battle, the Seanchan are gonna have to deal with stabilizing their rule in the Westlands, which, despite appearances, is not nearly as stable as it seems.  As of the Last Battle, they were still clearing out the Rahad, and there are still doubtless elements of rebellion in Tarabon.  So they'll be a while getting ready to go back to Seanchan, it apparently took them 300 years to get ready to go the West.  Of course, with gateways, they'll probably be faster, but it will still take them some time to gather their strength and organize.  And they'll have more headaches to deal with in the near term in the guise of the the Shaido Aiel da'covale they've got from their battle at Malden.  In about a year, there's gonna be a lot of 'em go awol.  And who knows what damage they might wreak on their way out, or what the Seanchan will do to themselves trying to get them back?  

 

In the long term, learners being trained to channel in the rest of the Westlands will be enough to undermine Seanchan rule, as long as that rule is predicated upon damane.  Do you really think Seanchan sul'dam will really be content to merely channel through someone else forever?  They know the joy and feeling of completion that comes from embracing the Source because they feel it through the link.  When they could go to the White Tower and be trained to channel on their own, feel the Power for themselves and not merely through someone else, and maintain their freedom?  The Westlands will deprive the Seanchan not just of damane, but also of sul'dam.

 

The Seanchan really have only one option for their long-term survival in the West, and that's to submit to the authority of the Aiel, as specified in the Dragon's Peace, to which they are party.  They'll have to ultimately abandon the subjugation of sparkers, because they simply won't be able to keep many learners to control them, even if they keep control of the sparkers in their own lands.  But I don't see them as capable of doing that.  The Empire will never submit to the Aiel, despite Rand presenting his legitimacy to rule as preceding Hawkwing's, and they'll lash out before they give up their subjugation of damane.  The military situation that results will be quite different from the one Aviendha saw in the columns.  A unified front against the Seanchan can push them out before they have time to adapt.  There will be far more channelers in the Westlands to throw at the Seanchan than the Seanchan can field, and despite their lighter casualties in the Last Battle, they will still be outnumbered by a unified force, and that will only get worse as time goes on.  The Seanchan as an Empire are now doomed.  By making sure the Aiel were included in the Dragon's Peace, Aviendha swapped the Aiel's fate with the Seanchan's.

 

The outriggers where of Mat and Tuon regaining the Seachan homeland.No way in RJ mind were they doomed just the contrary.

 

It really does not matter if the treaty with Egwene was a treaty or not.Tuon was ready to tear up the dragon's peace what is the guarantee she will hold to a spoken word.Nothing.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

The Seachan smashed the combined Randland armies in Avi's vision.

And that vision is now defunct.

>>Pretty sure that militarily they are capable of it.

lockquote>

If you recall the vision, it began with the Aiel attacking the Seanchan alone. One several generations later did the other nations join in. By then the Aiel had been weakened. That won't be the case not, since the Aiel can lead a unified force of all nations in one strike right at the beginning. The military situation has changed drastically.

>Nothing has changed militarily in this future except that the Aiel would not go and pick a fight with them now.

Like I said, the military situation is very different.

Where is it said that only sparklers become damane in Seachan. They check every woman of age for ability to channel IIRC

Its said all over the books. What do you mean where is it said? Their learners become sul'dam. That's why there are so many sul'dam to each damane.

 

 

 

Avi's vision is defunct but not the military situation.Not at all.

Of course it is. The miilitary situation has changed in that Aiel have the ability to call on the armies of all the signatories of the Dragon's Peace, including the White Tower. If they launch an attack now, it will be as a unified body, not alone, as they did in the vision.

 

It remains the same. In the vision the Aiel attacked the Seachan on their own but crucially they were not losing.It was a stalemate.Whatever loses the Aiel took the Seachan took as well. The war only changed when the other lands entered the war which allowed the Seachan to farm damane by the hundreds from the others.That is what caused the loss.

That is still completely different from how it will go now. If the Aiel alone caused a stalemate, then Aiel and all the other nations together can sweep away the Seanchan before they can do anything. And unlike when the other nations joined the Aiel, this time the Aiel can coordinate strategy right from the beginning, and not have to worry about everyone doing things their own way.

Plus the Aiel attacked after decades after the LB which allowed them to rebuilt strength.Right now at the end of LB they are decimated.The AS are decimated.Hundered of channelers from the BT and WO;s and Sea folk are missing in the last book for the LB so it is doubtful they will appear to fight the Seachan.The Seachan are without doubt the strongest force in Randland now they hardly took loses as they entered only at the end of the LB when there was no Forsaken using balefire to wipe tens of thousands.

The Seanchan bore the brunt of destroying the millions of Trollocs left at the end. They took a major beating too. And who says the Aiel will attack before recuperating, and letting their allies recuperate as well?

[Edsel]

Wow... such vitrol for the Seanchan! LOL...  My 2 cents worth on a couple of issues, which I guess is worth about as much as 2 U.S. cents...

 

We don't know that Hawking was against anything that Tuon was doing with Seanchan.  He bent the world to his thumb.  He looked at Mat and said it would be enjoyable to try to kill each other in Battle.  He was from a much, much earlier and harder period...  And after Tuon's off screen meeting with him, she didn't indicate in any way to Mat that she had any thoughts about changing her culture.  In fact, she now teases that she can kill Mat since she has an heir.... oh... like it would be enjoyable to try... oh, just like Hawking's conversation with Mat.  Hmmmmm....

 

Rand admired the Seanchan after his trip through their lands.  They brought peace and stability to areas that had long been without either.  No, he didn't like the enslavement of the damane... but he questioned his vitrol against the Seanchan.  Perhaps we should question ours?  We admire the Romans... aren't the Seanchan the Romans of Randland?  They absorb other countries but allow them to keep their cultures.  They have slaves who can rise to power.  Only their treatment of Damane is different... and are the Aes Sedai without "sin"??... kidnapping rulers... beating Rand... nonconsentual spiritual circumcision of male channelers for years??  Two wrongs don't make a right... I'm just saying I don't like the White Tower any more or less than the Seanchan.  I didn't want Nynaeve to join...just pass the test and then say, "no, thanks!". ;o)

 

Even in Avi's future viewing the Seanchan became part of the peace treaty... and though the Seanchan had contingency plans, Avi's kids knew they intended to try to keep the treaty.  Just because the evil's of Avi's children may be changed for good doesn't mean the original Seanchan intentions may be changed for bad.

 

Tuon and Mat will be busy retaking the original Seanchan continent.  Mat would be bored silly post Last Battle in Randland.  He's still a battle master.... that was given him in Finnland...it's not part of his ta'veren nature... and in his own POVs he was so grateful to be gone from the Two Rivers.  He and Egwene were the two who wanted to be away from that small town!!  Rand, Perrin, and Nynaeve were more proud of their homeland.  Beslan and others will be taking care of Randland Seanchan.  They will keep the peace.

 

I have hope that eventually the evils of Damane slavery will be abolished... but in our world we've had slavery since well before the Romans, and we still haven't eradicated it in some form or another from the face of the earth.  Even though all the civilized nations are against it.  Just sayin' I think it's at lease a couple thousand years away for the Seanchan, however unfortunate.

 

Tuon has been trained to be the Empress in almost as extensive a fashion as the Damane have been trained to be obedient.  Not sure we can hold it against her completely... and she does love Mat... she tells Min that she has given her permission to do what her heart wants.  She's been trained to put the Empire first, however.

[Thrasymachus]

Heh, I was wondering if someone would bring up the planned outriggers.  The simple fact is that we don't know what those outriggers would have been about, except in the most general terms of being about Mat and Tuon and and their attempts to rebuild the Seanchan Empire.  We don't know whether those attempts would have succeeded, or what form they would ultimately have taken.    It could easily have been a story of an Empire in decline, with Mat working against Tuon to undermine the whole basis of Seanchan society.  In any event, there are no longer going to be any outriggers.  Whatever RJ had in mind, and again, nobody really knows, not Brandon, and probably not Harriet or Maria, it's now moot.  As things currently stand, the Seanchan are doomed.  Either they have to change so radically that they're no longer the Seanchan, or they'll be swept away.

[Suttree]

Rand admired the Seanchan after his trip through their lands. They brought peace and stability to areas that had long been without either. No, he didn't like the enslavement of the damane... but he questioned his vitrol against the Seanchan. Perhaps we should question ours?

He saw stabily in Altara a land that couldn't control anyting outside of it's capital city. Regardless we know that peace and stability is at least in part false just more Seanchan propganda. People are not in fact content and happy. Kared mentions putting down "numerous" rebellions in his time with the DW guards and we have seekers discussing "sedition" in various districts. In Randland proper both Arad Doman and Tarabon are in revolt. So while yest they provided stability to one country that had never such it is not near what the Blood would have you believe and it comes at far too great a cost.

 

They have slaves who can rise to power.

That is the smallest 1% that can rise to such levels. The rest are not treated well and they can be bought and sold like cattle. Keep in mind that per the BWB Seanchan is a place where:

 

The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

Only their treatment of Damane is different...

This is obviously not true. There is quite a bit different but even the treatment of damane alone is enough to show how wrong they are. They quite literally strip a persons very identity and turn them into something sub human. One day your daughter or son will wake up, fail a test and be ripped away never to be seen again. We have seen the results of the torture and reconditioning and it is beyond sickening. The practice is abhorent and needs to stop. End of. There is no comparison between this and anything the AS have done.

 

and are the Aes Sedai without "sin"??... kidnapping rulers... beating Rand... nonconsentual spiritual circumcision of male channelers for years??

Whether the AS are without sin is utterly beside the point. They have been the main bastion against the shadow for 3,000 years and have saved the world a couple times over. In regards to severing men there was no other option pre-cleansing and we know Cadsuane at least had a method that integrated men back into society post severing and allowed them to live almost a normal life span.

[Edsel]

 

Rand admired the Seanchan after his trip through their lands. They brought peace and stability to areas that had long been without either. No, he didn't like the enslavement of the damane... but he questioned his vitrol against the Seanchan. Perhaps we should question ours?

He saw stabily in Altara a land that couldn't control anyting outside of it's capital city. Regardless we know that peace and stability is at least in part false just more Seanchan propganda. People are not in fact content and happy. Kared mentions putting down "numerous" rebellions in his time with the DW guards and we have seekers discussing "sedition" in various districts. In Randland proper both Arad Doman and Tarabon are in revolt. So while yest they provided stability to one country that had never such it is not near what the Blood would have you believe and it comes at far too great a cost.

 

>They have slaves who can rise to power.

That is the smallest 1% that can rise to such levels. The rest are not treated well and they can be bought and sold like cattle. Keep in mind that per the BWB Seanchan is a place where:

 

The society is based on the concept that everyone has a place in which to serve, and everyone should be in their place.

Only their treatment of Damane is different...

This is obviously not true. There is quite a bit different but even the treatment of damane alone is enough to show how wrong they are. They quite literally strip a persons very identity and turn them into something sub human. One day your daughter or son will wake up, fail a test and be ripped away never to be seen again. We have seen the results of the torture and reconditioning and it is beyond sickening. The practice is abhorent and needs to stop. End of. There is no comparison between this and anything the AS have done.

 

and are the Aes Sedai without "sin"??... kidnapping rulers... beating Rand... nonconsentual spiritual circumcision of male channelers for years??

Whether the AS are without sin is utterly beside the point. They have been the main bastion against the shadow for 3,000 years and have saved the world a couple times over. In regards to severing men there was no other option pre-cleansing and we know Cadsuane at least had a method that integrated men back into society post severing and allowed them to live almost a normal life span.

 

As I said,  I'm not a proponent of Seanchan ways... just saying that it's deeply ingrained and change will take time.  AND, if Mat first steers them towards the retaking of Seanchan and the united forces of Randland still cross their territories, it will be Randland and the Aiel who break the treaty.  And that is exactly what I see Mat doing.  He's not going to want to take up the day to day responsibilies of Prince Consort in Randland anyway... he's going to want to enjoy the game of retaking Seanchan as Battle General. You seem to see the Seanchan as probably breaking the treaty first.  From Avi's vision, and with Mat's influence, I don't see that happening, even if they consider contingencies.  Avi was definitely more horrified with her descendants misleading the world about the contingencies than she was about the contingencies themselves.  As Tuon as argued many times, one should only be tried for what they do... not what they are capable of or what they consider.  I agree that these books mark the beginning of the end of the institution of damane... I just think it's going to take much longer many others of you. 

 

My personality is much more Nynaeve's in regards to what I see as right or wrong...like her, much of it has to do with my small town, even bucolic upbringing. But I have to say that the books themselves would not have been as enjoyable without Tuon and the Seanchan...even if I don't like everything they do.  And being like Nynaeve, I'm not sure I could be as calculating as Elayne, Egwene, or Tuon... whether to be the bastion of the light (kidnapping? really?) like the AS or to protect my Empire like Tuon.  That's why I'm not a leader.  But as a reader,  I'm just able to enjoy Tuon's role in the book...and admit that Egwene and Elayne often irritated me.

[XXX]

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

[Elan Tedronai]

One of the greatest failures of rand. Not finishing off the seanchan when he had the chance back in TGS.

 

For all of lews therin's moral deificiencies, he would have wiped out this slave dealing baffoons

[fionwe1987]

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

[Edsel]

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

In altered scenario there may not even be a war.  Period.  We already know the future is changed in that the Dragon's Peace does not allow the Seanchan to enter Arad Doman... only part of Almoth Plain... so in altered version they won't be in Arad Doman for Padra (who may no longer be named Padra) to skirmish with them and instigate the Aiel to go to war with them... plus the Aiel are also part of the Dragon's Peace in altered version, and should by their honor and valor only punish the Seanchan IF they break the peace.  There also may be no Oncala to withhold letters stating that the Seanchan are only considering breaking the peace in case the Randlanders break it first.  So Oncala (if she remains Oncala) will probably not encourage the nations to war with the Seanchan unless they break the peace...  Even in unaltered scenario Ronam held the old Empress... Tuon... as a woman of  honor and said that an agreement was almost reached with her (concerning the Wise Ones, I'm sure)... In altered scenario who says Tuon may not actually come to just such an agreement?  Are you so sure Mat can't convince her to keep the peace?  I am willing to bet on him.  Call me a sucker for love.... and I do think she loves him.  AND... the next Empress will be Mat's daughter.  Don't you think he might teach her to continue keep the peace??  Again, I think the demise of the damane will happen over a long, long, long period and from within.  

 

Plus Rand wants the peace.  And with his new powers, can't he just will it so?  LOL ok that last part was just me being facitious.....

[XXX]

Heh, I was wondering if someone would bring up the planned outriggers.  The simple fact is that we don't know what those outriggers would have been about, except in the most general terms of being about Mat and Tuon and and their attempts to rebuild the Seanchan Empire.  We don't know whether those attempts would have succeeded, or what form they would ultimately have taken.    It could easily have been a story of an Empire in decline, with Mat working against Tuon to undermine the whole basis of Seanchan society.  In any event, there are no longer going to be any outriggers.  Whatever RJ had in mind, and again, nobody really knows, not Brandon, and probably not Harriet or Maria, it's now moot.  As things currently stand, the Seanchan are doomed.  Either they have to change so radically that they're no longer the Seanchan, or they'll be swept away.

 

If RJ had plans for outriggers involving Tuon and mAt retaking the Seachan homeland then you can bet anything they would have suceeded. It would be like the WoT with DO winning in the end for it to be anything otherwise.

 

I doubt the Seachan were doomed in RJ's mind.

[XXX]

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

 

The unified war from the very start will result in what happened when Andor joined Aiel in Avi;s vision only faster. Logically that is the only conclusion.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

In altered scenario there may not even be a war.  Period.

Of course. This argument is purely hypothetical. No one is denying that the chances of an actual war are remote.

 

 

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

 

The unified war from the very start will result in what happened when Andor joined Aiel in Avi;s vision only faster. Logically that is the only conclusion.

Yes. Very logical. Andor+Cairhein is exactly the same as Andor+Chairhein plus all the other nations, plus the White Tower, plus the Asha'man, plus the Sea Folk. 

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

How about this? 

 

Matt finds it hard to bring peace to Seanchan. As the Aiel are the keepers of the peace in the Dragon Peace, he enlists their aid and brings many of them to the shores of Seanchan where they help bring peace and harmony. 

My guess is as time moves seanchan will become more Randlandian and Randland more seanchan. 

[XXX]

 

 

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

In altered scenario there may not even be a war.  Period.

Of course. This argument is purely hypothetical. No one is denying that the chances of an actual war are remote.

 

> 

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

 

The unified war from the very start will result in what happened when Andor joined Aiel in Avi;s vision only faster. Logically that is the only conclusion.

Yes. Very logical. Andor+Cairhein is exactly the same as Andor+Chairhein plus all the other nations, plus the White Tower, plus the Asha'man, plus the Sea Folk. 

 

 

Yes all of them were smashed by Seachan after a draining war with the Aiel. Imagine what the Seachan would do if they did not have the draining war with the Aiel first. Massacre!!

[XXX]

How about this? 

 

Matt finds it hard to bring peace to Seanchan. As the Aiel are the keepers of the peace in the Dragon Peace, he enlists their aid and brings many of them to the shores of Seanchan where they help bring peace and harmony. 

My guess is as time moves seanchan will become more Randlandian and Randland more seanchan. 

 

Impossible. Tuon never gave up her right to fight for Seachan. The more I think about the it the Dragon peace will lead to Randland's military capacity getting severely weakened over time while huge continents like Seachan(twice as big as Randland?) or Shara (as big as Randland) or the land of the madman will be fighting fit. Eventually they will make a move on Randland and roll the continent over. To be ready to fight you have to fight regularly.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

 

How about this? 

 

Matt finds it hard to bring peace to Seanchan. As the Aiel are the keepers of the peace in the Dragon Peace, he enlists their aid and brings many of them to the shores of Seanchan where they help bring peace and harmony. 

My guess is as time moves seanchan will become more Randlandian and Randland more seanchan. 

 

Impossible. Tuon never gave up her right to fight for Seachan. The more I think about the it the Dragon peace will lead to Randland's military capacity getting severely weakened over time while huge continents like Seachan(twice as big as Randland?) or Shara (as big as Randland) or the land of the madman will be fighting fit. Eventually they will make a move on Randland and roll the continent over. To be ready to fight you have to fight regularly.

 

No doubt. And seeing as the Aiel love to fight and are now the peacekeepers of the Dragon Peace and that the Seanchan are part of the Dragon Peace, I think they're going to end up in Seanchan. Randland, in my opinion, holds some of the most important seeds for the future - 

 

The White Tower - which we're told will one day be unified, men and women

The Aiel - who will once again serve the AS, I think

Rand's Universities - which will help usher in future ages.

 

I do not think that Randland will be subsumed by Seanchan. My opinion, obviously.

 

Edit to add - who's to say that Tuon is going to live for long? She wasn't in Avi vision. 

[Suttree]

 

 

 

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

In altered scenario there may not even be a war.  Period.

Of course. This argument is purely hypothetical. No one is denying that the chances of an actual war are remote.

 

>> 

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

 

The unified war from the very start will result in what happened when Andor joined Aiel in Avi;s vision only faster. Logically that is the only conclusion.

Yes. Very logical. Andor+Cairhein is exactly the same as Andor+Chairhein plus all the other nations, plus the White Tower, plus the Asha'man, plus the Sea Folk. 

 

 

Yes all of them were smashed by Seachan after a draining war with the Aiel. Imagine what the Seachan would do if they did not have the draining war with the Aiel first. Massacre!!

 

Are you really not seeing the difference between the two situations here?

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

In altered scenario there may not even be a war.  Period.

Of course. This argument is purely hypothetical. No one is denying that the chances of an actual war are remote.

 

>>>> 

 

I don't understand this logic.

 

In Avi's vision the Aiel and Seachan fought a war over several years which landed in a stalemate.Then the Aiel got the other nations to join them in launching an attack on the Seachan who crushed them all.

 

Now how will this change if the Aiel attack along with the other nations from the beginnning.Logically in the first instance the Seachan suffered some loses in their stalemate against the Aiel before they took everyone else on.In the second scenario they will be fighting at full strength from the start. So they should be able to crush everyone more easily.

Let me see if I can boil it down for you:

 

Army X and army Y are in a war. Neither is able to win against the other. Army X is at peace with other nations. Army Y is not precisely a nation, and while nominally allied with other nations, cannot violate their land, or use any of their resources. When they attack the holdings of army X, they need to use Gateways. They themselves have only one major city in a desert waste, and as such, while being brilliant warriors, don't have the logistical depth to defeat the other army. They hold on because of their extraordinary valor.

 

Now, in an altered scenario, army Y has the right to call on the armies of all the nations. They can freely move in all the nations, and are responsible for maintaining peace between them, including the lands of army X. Being able to move through the lands of army X, they can study them, and understand their behaviors. When they attack, they attack with the combined forces of all the nations under them, and get to coordinate the attacks, as they have the mandate to do so. Rather than a few dozen different strategies for a dozen different wars with army X, all the nations are part of one war effort. They don't enter the conflict one at a time, they enter together. 

 

In the first case, army X fights army Y to a standstill. Then Andor-Cairhein joins the war. Then, in indeterminate order, the other nations join in. In the alternate scenario, there is no such time gap. There is no "fighting to a standstill" over several generations. Its a unified war effort from the start. Get it?

 

The unified war from the very start will result in what happened when Andor joined Aiel in Avi;s vision only faster. Logically that is the only conclusion.

Yes. Very logical. Andor+Cairhein is exactly the same as Andor+Chairhein plus all the other nations, plus the White Tower, plus the Asha'man, plus the Sea Folk. 

 

 

Yes all of them were smashed by Seachan after a draining war with the Aiel. Imagine what the Seachan would do if they did not have the draining war with the Aiel first. Massacre!!

 

Are you really not seeing the difference between the two situations here?

 

Apparently, he isn't. Thankfully no army depends on him for success.

[analyticalkeys]

I just really wish we saw the encounter between Hawking and Tuon, but I feel like this was very intentionally left open to us.

[fionwe1987]

I just really wish we saw the encounter between Hawking and Tuon, but I feel like this was very intentionally left open to us.

I'm kind of glad we didn't see it. Given the way other major confrontations have been handled, I can't help but think we were spared the inevitable bungling of storytelling that would have ensued.