The Black Tower (Full Spoilers)

[fionwe1987]

Well, the oath is 'I will not use the One Power as a weapon' except blah blah blah, not Saidar. The interpretations of the oaths seem pretty specific to the teaching of the WT with that one, especially the definition of weapon. But the most pertinent fact is that they are generally not mass murdering psychopaths, and with the DO gone there will be less of an inclination towards that.

So the Asha'man are not mass murdering psychopaths, but the Aes Sedai are, and the Aes Sedai will use this reasoning to justify not lending the Oath Rod to the Asha'man? 

[TristanWebb]

 

Well, the oath is 'I will not use the One Power as a weapon' except blah blah blah, not Saidar. The interpretations of the oaths seem pretty specific to the teaching of the WT with that one, especially the definition of weapon. But the most pertinent fact is that they are generally not mass murdering psychopaths, and with the DO gone there will be less of an inclination towards that.

So the Asha'man are not mass murdering psychopaths, but the Aes Sedai are, and the Aes Sedai will use this reasoning to justify not lending the Oath Rod to the Asha'man? 

What are you talking about? I am saying that the AS couldn't use either half of the OP as a weapon and that the Tower interprets weapon very loosely so they probably couldn't force a channeling warder to do it either.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

Well, the oath is 'I will not use the One Power as a weapon' except blah blah blah, not Saidar. The interpretations of the oaths seem pretty specific to the teaching of the WT with that one, especially the definition of weapon. But the most pertinent fact is that they are generally not mass murdering psychopaths, and with the DO gone there will be less of an inclination towards that.

So the Asha'man are not mass murdering psychopaths, but the Aes Sedai are, and the Aes Sedai will use this reasoning to justify not lending the Oath Rod to the Asha'man? 

What are you talking about? I am saying that the AS couldn't use either half of the OP as a weapon and that the Tower interprets weapon very loosely so they probably couldn't force a channeling warder to do it either.

By the spirit of the Oaths, no. But Aes Sedai have become very practiced at sticking to the letter of the Oaths and ignoring the spirit. And the Oath's clearly say "I" will not use the One Power as a weapon.

[Charred Knight]

Why would the Asha'man want to have an Oath Rod?  It doesnt really work since everyone expects an Aes Sedai to lie anyway so the only thing that comes out of it is that you die in half the time.  I suspect that in 400-500 years the leader of the Asha'man is still going to be Logain Ablar showing the youngsters a thing or two.

[Suttree]

Why would the Asha'man want to have an Oath Rod? It doesnt really work since everyone expects an Aes Sedai to lie anyway so the only thing that comes out of it is that you die in half the time

It does work in the sense that people know they can't tell an outright lie.

 

Regardless we don't know what the life expectancy is know that AS have the plan to release themselves at a certain age.

[Kahsm]

I think this might be relevant here-ish.

 

But Pavera channeling while in their double-bond link. There a discussion about the mechancis of that somewhere already? They even said "You used my talent" because she wove the gateway the way Androl would... that seems even more crazy than just being able to weave while linked...

 

Plus I'm a little surprised they never got back to that... Would have really helped rand had he just double bonded Nyn and Mori so they could still use the power and not be so useless.

[Vambram]

I think this might be relevant here-ish.

 

But Pavera channeling while in their double-bond link. There a discussion about the mechancis of that somewhere already? They even said "You used my talent" because she wove the gateway the way Androl would... that seems even more crazy than just being able to weave while linked...

 

Plus I'm a little surprised they never got back to that... Would have really helped rand had he just double bonded Nyn and Mori so they could still use the power and not be so useless.

 

 

As far as I know, nobody but Androl and Pevara knew about their double bonding of one another. I do not recall if they shared what they did with anyone, or what some of the benefits were of this double bonding.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

 

 

 

Well, the oath is 'I will not use the One Power as a weapon' except blah blah blah, not Saidar. The interpretations of the oaths seem pretty specific to the teaching of the WT with that one, especially the definition of weapon. But the most pertinent fact is that they are generally not mass murdering psychopaths, and with the DO gone there will be less of an inclination towards that.

So the Asha'man are not mass murdering psychopaths, but the Aes Sedai are, and the Aes Sedai will use this reasoning to justify not lending the Oath Rod to the Asha'man? 

What are you talking about? I am saying that the AS couldn't use either half of the OP as a weapon and that the Tower interprets weapon very loosely so they probably couldn't force a channeling warder to do it either.

By the spirit of the Oaths, no. But Aes Sedai have become very practiced at sticking to the letter of the Oaths and ignoring the spirit. And the Oath's clearly say "I" will not use the One Power as a weapon.

 

Yes, and telling someone else to use the power as a weapon is an AS attempting to use the power as a weapon.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

 

Well, the oath is 'I will not use the One Power as a weapon' except blah blah blah, not Saidar. The interpretations of the oaths seem pretty specific to the teaching of the WT with that one, especially the definition of weapon. But the most pertinent fact is that they are generally not mass murdering psychopaths, and with the DO gone there will be less of an inclination towards that.

So the Asha'man are not mass murdering psychopaths, but the Aes Sedai are, and the Aes Sedai will use this reasoning to justify not lending the Oath Rod to the Asha'man? 

What are you talking about? I am saying that the AS couldn't use either half of the OP as a weapon and that the Tower interprets weapon very loosely so they probably couldn't force a channeling warder to do it either.

By the spirit of the Oaths, no. But Aes Sedai have become very practiced at sticking to the letter of the Oaths and ignoring the spirit. And the Oath's clearly say "I" will not use the One Power as a weapon.

 

Yes, and telling someone else to use the power as a weapon is an AS attempting to use the power as a weapon.

No it is not. She is not using the OP in that case at all. She's asking someone else to do it. Aes Sedai ask people to lie for them all the time. In fact, in aMoL, Egwene even establishes that Gawyn can indeed lie for her. If she does ask him to lie for her, she won't be violating the first oath.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

 

 

 

 

 

Well, the oath is 'I will not use the One Power as a weapon' except blah blah blah, not Saidar. The interpretations of the oaths seem pretty specific to the teaching of the WT with that one, especially the definition of weapon. But the most pertinent fact is that they are generally not mass murdering psychopaths, and with the DO gone there will be less of an inclination towards that.

So the Asha'man are not mass murdering psychopaths, but the Aes Sedai are, and the Aes Sedai will use this reasoning to justify not lending the Oath Rod to the Asha'man? 

What are you talking about? I am saying that the AS couldn't use either half of the OP as a weapon and that the Tower interprets weapon very loosely so they probably couldn't force a channeling warder to do it either.

By the spirit of the Oaths, no. But Aes Sedai have become very practiced at sticking to the letter of the Oaths and ignoring the spirit. And the Oath's clearly say "I" will not use the One Power as a weapon.

 

Yes, and telling someone else to use the power as a weapon is an AS attempting to use the power as a weapon.

No it is not. She is not using the OP in that case at all. She's asking someone else to do it. Aes Sedai ask people to lie for them all the time. In fact, in aMoL, Egwene even establishes that Gawyn can indeed lie for her. If she does ask him to lie for her, she won't be violating the first oath.

 

That's actually a good point. They do learn how to take skirt around their oaths. I guess the people of Randland will have to rely on the Ashaman not to be sociopaths. Although, many a man has done something stupid for a pretty girl. ;)

[Kahsm]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll buy that explanation if it is stated in the encyclopedia-- I think if that is the case, it is likely to be in there. If not... still plausible, but I still think it is more likely to end up being an extension of the WT, or related to non-AS female channelers.

 

Somewhat unrelated, but I think it would be interesting if some men didn't want to become Asha'man and tried to join the WT as male Aes Sedai. It would create some interesting problems, and though don't think it will happen (just a random muse), that is not explicitly shot down by Brandon saying that hte Asha'man will remain separate.

 

Who would train them? Fish and Birds and all that.

 

 

It could be that Aes Sedai like Pevara stay on at the BT to train new female Asha'man, and some Asha'man warders in the Tower stay on to teach new male Novices. Both Towers could become competing organizations of men and women, preventing any one organization from getting supreme power. You'd also have Wise Ones beginning to add men, and male Windfinders among the SF.

 

 

 

I can't really see either the WT or the BT allowing any of it's members to start training channellers who will be apart of the other organisation. And seeing as Brandon said that no men will start using the oath rod, it pretty much rules out men joining the WT. However I agree, that male channellers will show up  amongst the Sea Folk and Aiel, although they'll need the Asha'man to train the first ones. So Logain could probably strike a nice deal there.

 

Some interesting pieces on the Black Tower/Asha'man

 

 

 

INTERVIEW: 2013

Twitter 2013 (WoT) (Verbatim)

 

KAMARILE SEDAI (23 JANUARY 2013)

Brandon, does the Oath Rod continue to be used in the Fourth Age? If so, for what purpose?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (23 JANUARY 2013)

 

So far as I know, yes. And for the same purpose.

 

RAJ IYER

Do other groups start using the Rod too?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

Do you think the Aes Sedai are likely to let others manhandle one of their ter'angreal?

 

KAMARILE SEDAI

Did men start to use the Oath Rod too, or did it continue to be only women?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

No men. Neither group would like that. The Asha'man are NOT male Aes Sedai. RJ was clear about this in the notes.

 

KEITH MARTIN

Will the White and Black Towers reunite to form one Aes Sedai again?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

RJ was clear to me that the Asha'man were not Aes Sedai, and were not going to become them.

 

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

That said, a united male/female Aes Sedai will come again someday.

 

FOOTNOTE

Brandon is probably not referring to the 4th Age in his last tweet; more likely he's talking about the next turning of the Wheel.

 

Count me in favour of a Grey Tower. 

 

Both Towers need to shed their skins. Both institutions have been tainted, literally and figuratively. 

 

While it is obvious that neither institution will be dissolved or combined - at least not any time soon in the 4th Age - I would like to think a third party would eventually arise. 

 

It is already in the making with Pevara and Androl - possibly even Teslyn, as she seems to find the WT an uncomfortable place now, and Reds have always been interested in male channelers - and the like. 

 

However, with the Black Tower the only male institute, it will be very hard for any males to establish outside of the BT in any real capacity. Still, I would like to see both parties put away their titles as Aes Sedai and Asha'man and become something different. The Asha'Sedai, I call it.

 

 

 

The thing is, for a "Grey Tower" to rise up, you would need to have a huge amount of Asha'man and Aes Sedai desert their respective towers. Otherwise, if they're too few, you can be certain that Logain or Cadsuane (or whoever comes after them) will squash that immediately.

 

So I really think that a Grey Tower would have to come through cooperation between the Asha'man and Aes Sedai. They wouldn't unite entirely, but they would be two, distinct, parts of a whole. Like this  .

 

 

Uhh, Wise Ones didn't need Aes Sedai to teach them. So why would Aiel MCs need the black tower? Might be easier, but certainly not necessary.

 

And for a grey tower you just need a third faction. A couple AS and AMs to do their own recruiting and teaching. And if social diversity claims are correct (an arguable point in itself), they'd be the stronger for it, and others may defect towards them. Like a new political party ;)

 

Plus the MCs may get into the WT through a back door. If AS are going to be bonding men... I'm sure they'd need a new training ground for MC warders that did channeling stuff on top of the grounds where they train the regular Warders. And at that point you'll have men learning to channel in the White Tower... and they'll just keep merging from there.

 

There's so many ways that a grey tower can happen, I just can't see the prejudice of tainted men holding through the entire age when it's in all their best interests to work together.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

I can't really see either the WT or the BT allowing any of it's members to start training channellers who will be apart of the other organisation.

What choice would they have? They're not possibly idiotic enough to start something that could lead to the two Towers warring.

 

Which is why neither Tower would take the risk of "stealing" the other Tower's channellers in the first place. If an Asha'man or an Aes Sedai start training channellers for the other Tower, than they'll be seen as traitors. If the WT tries to protect a rogue Asha'man from the BT, and vice verca, then the BT can call the Aiel in. One way or another things won't end in a pretty manner. And it's the Tower who tried to "steal" channellers in the first place that will be at fault.

 

 

 

And seeing as Brandon said that no men will start using the oath rod, it pretty much rules out men joining the WT. However I agree, that male channellers will show up  amongst the Sea Folk and Aiel, although they'll need the Asha'man to train the first ones. So Logain could probably strike a nice deal there.

I'm very mistrustful of Brandon's answer on the OR. For one thing, there's a major issue. If an Aes Sedai asks her Asha'man warder to use the OP to kill someone she dislikes, what does the Tower do? Sure, it could call for both the AS and the AM to be executed, but that's problematic with respect to jurisdiction. And the point of the Oaths is totally defeated if people worry that the Aes Sedai will simply outsource (!!!) their killing to their Asha'man Warders.

Plus, I don't really see the Aes Sedai electing an Amyrlin who'll die or retire soon. Add to that, Brandon's point about Aes Sedai disliking others using their ter'angreal ignores events in the books. They gave up the Bowl, they temporarily loaned Dream ter'angreal to Windfinders, and later gave those away. Egwene even convinced them that its pointless to try to keep all ter'angreal by bringing up the point of Asha'man who may have the Talent to make them. Brandon clearly forgot that. 

I'd like him to clarify this, actually.

 

 

If an Aes Sedai wants an Asha'man warder to kill someone with the OP, the Asha'man would have to agree to do so in the first place. And if he does, he'll have the BT to answer to. Rand was pretty clear the Asha'mann warders are Asha'man first, Warders second. So to me the jurisdiction lies with the BT. But really I'm pretty sure the WT and BT would be of one mind on an Asha'man who murdered an innocent man.

 

The Aes Sedai could always ask their Warder to kill people for her. The only thing that's changed is that they now have access to far more lethal Warders. But a regular Asha'man is just as lethal as a Asha'man Warder. If the first isn't swearing oaths, why should the second?

 

As for the Aes Sedai not lending terangreals, the key point is Egwene. She recognized that they couldn't keep the monopoly on objects of the power. It just wasn't feasible since other groups would no doubt learn how to make them. She was even willing to give them some of the Tower's, either temporarily, or permanently, if she got something in return of course. With Egwene gone it's not a certainty that the Aes Sedai will continue that policy.

 

Also, electing an Amrylin who might die soon could be a good move for an Aes Sedai who wants to rise to the position herself soon. With the Last Battle finished, and Egwene gone, there's no guarantee that the Aes Sedai won't return to the Great Game.

 

 

 

 

Well, the oath is 'I will not use the One Power as a weapon' except blah blah blah, not Saidar. The interpretations of the oaths seem pretty specific to the teaching of the WT with that one, especially the definition of weapon. But the most pertinent fact is that they are generally not mass murdering psychopaths, and with the DO gone there will be less of an inclination towards that.

 

So the Asha'man are not mass murdering psychopaths, but the Aes Sedai are, and the Aes Sedai will use this reasoning to justify not lending the Oath Rod to the Asha'man? 

 

 

Whether the Aes Sedai would be willing to lend the Oath Rod or not, why would the Asha'man willingly bind themselves anyway? They'd be giving up half their live, and restricting themselves, and for... what? You said above you weren't very trustful of BS answer about the OR. While I can understand that about this question:

 

KAMARILE SEDAI (23 JANUARY 2013)

Brandon, does the Oath Rod continue to be used in the Fourth Age? If so, for what purpose?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (23 JANUARY 2013)

So far as I know, yes. And for the same purpose.

 

 

 

 

For this one on the other hand, he definitely seems certain of his answer:

 

 

 

KAMARILE SEDAI

Did men start to use the Oath Rod too, or did it continue to be only women?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

No men. Neither group would like that. The Asha'man are NOT male Aes Sedai. RJ was clear about this in the notes.

 

 

 

No men means no men. There's no ambiguity there.

 

 

 

 

Why would the Asha'man want to have an Oath Rod? It doesnt really work since everyone expects an Aes Sedai to lie anyway so the only thing that comes out of it is that you die in half the time

It does work in the sense that people know they can't tell an outright lie.

 

Regardless we don't know what the life expectancy is know that AS have the plan to release themselves at a certain age.

 

 

But how many people have the guts to tell an Aes Sedai to speak clearly with no twisting of words? The oaths made people trust Aes Sedai less not more. Besides I feel like the oaths follow the same principle as the adam, although not to the same extent obviously.

 

Are the Aes Sedai actually going to follow that plan though? The last I remember was Romanda saying she would die an Aes Sedai... Well I suppose she was right about that, but who says the other Aes Sedai won't be similarly against giving up the oaths if it means giving up being Aes Sedai.

 

 

 

The thing is, for a "Grey Tower" to rise up, you would need to have a huge amount of Asha'man and Aes Sedai desert their respective towers. Otherwise, if they're too few, you can be certain that Logain or Cadsuane (or whoever comes after them) will squash that immediately.

 

So I really think that a Grey Tower would have to come through cooperation between the Asha'man and Aes Sedai. They wouldn't unite entirely, but they would be two, distinct, parts of a whole. Like this  .

Uhh, Wise Ones didn't need Aes Sedai to teach them. So why would Aiel MCs need the black tower? Might be easier, but certainly not necessary.

 

And for a grey tower you just need a third faction. A couple AS and AMs to do their own recruiting and teaching. And if social diversity claims are correct (an arguable point in itself), they'd be the stronger for it, and others may defect towards them. Like a new political party ;)

 

Plus the MCs may get into the WT through a back door. If AS are going to be bonding men... I'm sure they'd need a new training ground for MC warders that did channeling stuff on top of the grounds where they train the regular Warders. And at that point you'll have men learning to channel in the White Tower... and they'll just keep merging from there.

 

There's so many ways that a grey tower can happen, I just can't see the prejudice of tainted men holding through the entire age when it's in all their best interests to work together.

 

 

We don't actually know whether an Aes Sedai taught the first WO or not, but either way you're right it's perfectly possible for them to learn to channel on their own. It's just also extremey dangerous. I said "need" because I'm assuming that the Aiel male channellers wouldn't be stupid enough to risk dying, when they can ask the Asha'man to get them started. It certainly wouldn't have to be a deal that's somehow incredibly restrictive on the Aiel. Logain would know that they'll eventually learn how to channel on their own anyway. Get something out of them while he still can. And save Aiel lives in the process.

 

A couple AS and AM, wouldn't be enough, because they'd have both Towers coming down on them hard. Neither of them is going to tolerate seperatists. You'd have to have huge numbers of AS and AM ready to defect for there to be a legitiate threat to the unity of the Towers.

 

For the WT to gain male channellers, you'd need to have an Asha'man willing to defect from the BT to train channellers at the WT. Which would not only be extremely dangerous, since the BT would never tolerate traitors, it would also be incredibly stupid. A male channeller is going to defect from the BT, basically the only place in the world where he was safe, to join the WT, which is essentially the exact opposite? That doesn't seem very likely to me. Add that to BS saying that Aes Sedai will keep the oaths and that no men will begin taking them, and the idea is nearly burried to me. Not only is extremely unlikely, it's also extremely dangerous, both for the individual, and the organisation. And I imagine survival instincts would be at an all time high following the Last Battle.

 

That said I completely agree that a Gray Tower is the logical step down the road. Whether it's in a more violent manner with seperatist from both Towers, or in a more peaceful manner with both Towers progressively drawing closer together, it's probable that it'll happen. The merge won't be absolute, since according BS the Asha'man and Aes Sedai remain seperate, but it should be sufficient for both organisations to live under one roof, although they may keep the Black and White Towers going as well.

[fionwe1987]

 

 

 

I can't really see either the WT or the BT allowing any of it's members to start training channellers who will be apart of the other organisation.

What choice would they have? They're not possibly idiotic enough to start something that could lead to the two Towers warring.

 

Which is why neither Tower would take the risk of "stealing" the other Tower's channellers in the first place. If an Asha'man or an Aes Sedai start training channellers for the other Tower, than they'll be seen as traitors. If the WT tries to protect a rogue Asha'man from the BT, and vice verca, then the BT can call the Aiel in. One way or another things won't end in a pretty manner. And it's the Tower who tried to "steal" channellers in the first place that will be at fault.

Think of this scenario: young village yokel (Sam) goes to the White Tower to become a Warder. He meets Asha'man Joe, who's a Warder to Aes Sedai Moe. The yokel soon becomes friends with Joe, and within a few years, becomes Warder to Moe's best friend, Toe. When he turns twenty eight, Sam finds out he has the spark, and can channel. Since he's such good friends with Joe, and Toe and Moe are good friends too, Sam asks Joe to teach him how to channel. Soon, Sam can channel, and does it well. But he never went to the Black Tower, since he'd joined the White already. But nor was he ever in need of the BT's learning. His allegiance is all to the WT. Now he goes to the Warder training yard, and tests out recruits for the latent ability, and finds twenty of them. He decides to teach them, and Moe and Toe, decide to campaign with the Hall to let all these men become Aes Sedai. What exactly can the Black Tower do, here? The same can happen in reverse, with a woman who goes to the BT.

 

Or consider this. Joe and Moe marry, and have a son and a daughter. They're twins. To not separate the twins, they decide to train them together, in the White Tower which is their home. And surrounded as they are by the White Tower and its grandeur, both decide they want to stay on there. Or the reverse happens in the BT. All it takes is for one of the Towers to admit one channeler of the opposite gender for the floodgates to open. 

 

 

 

 

And seeing as Brandon said that no men will start using the oath rod, it pretty much rules out men joining the WT. However I agree, that male channellers will show up  amongst the Sea Folk and Aiel, although they'll need the Asha'man to train the first ones. So Logain could probably strike a nice deal there.

I'm very mistrustful of Brandon's answer on the OR. For one thing, there's a major issue. If an Aes Sedai asks her Asha'man warder to use the OP to kill someone she dislikes, what does the Tower do? Sure, it could call for both the AS and the AM to be executed, but that's problematic with respect to jurisdiction. And the point of the Oaths is totally defeated if people worry that the Aes Sedai will simply outsource (!!!) their killing to their Asha'man Warders.

Plus, I don't really see the Aes Sedai electing an Amyrlin who'll die or retire soon. Add to that, Brandon's point about Aes Sedai disliking others using their ter'angreal ignores events in the books. They gave up the Bowl, they temporarily loaned Dream ter'angreal to Windfinders, and later gave those away. Egwene even convinced them that its pointless to try to keep all ter'angreal by bringing up the point of Asha'man who may have the Talent to make them. Brandon clearly forgot that. 

I'd like him to clarify this, actually.

 

 

If an Aes Sedai wants an Asha'man warder to kill someone with the OP, the Asha'man would have to agree to do so in the first place. And if he does, he'll have the BT to answer to. Rand was pretty clear the Asha'mann warders are Asha'man first, Warders second. So to me the jurisdiction lies with the BT. But really I'm pretty sure the WT and BT would be of one mind on an Asha'man who murdered an innocent man.

I'm sure they'd be of one mind. But the WT way has been to preempt the harm to its reputation by asking its channelers to take Oaths. The BT way, which can evolve, obviously, is to punish perpetrators of crimes. In this case, though, the crime can still happen even though the WT tried to preempt it. Which should show them the uselessness of having the Oaths. All it would take for an Aes Sedai to violate the Oaths is to find a likeminded Asha'man and take him on as a Warder. What's the point of the Oaths, then?

 

The Aes Sedai could always ask their Warder to kill people for her. The only thing that's changed is that they now have access to far more lethal Warders. But a regular Asha'man is just as lethal as a Asha'man Warder. If the first isn't swearing oaths, why should the second?

I'm saying neither should, and nor should the Aes Sedai.

As for the Aes Sedai not lending terangreals, the key point is Egwene. She recognized that they couldn't keep the monopoly on objects of the power. It just wasn't feasible since other groups would no doubt learn how to make them. She was even willing to give them some of the Tower's, either temporarily, or permanently, if she got something in return of course. With Egwene gone it's not a certainty that the Aes Sedai will continue that policy.

I'm willing to bet "but Egwene Sedai said..." is going to be a phrase the next few Amyrlins are going to hear a lot. Remember that the Novices and Accepted hero worshipped her. And she left them all alive, and took any number of traditional AS to their deaths with her. The Tower is soon going to be inundated with women whose idea of Aes Sedai is Egwene al'Vere. The changes are not even going to be gradual, because of that.

Also, electing an Amrylin who might die soon could be a good move for an Aes Sedai who wants to rise to the position herself soon. With the Last Battle finished, and Egwene gone, there's no guarantee that the Aes Sedai won't return to the Great Game.

They already are. But Cadsuane is no idiot. She doesn't have a death wish. Even if she decides to retire and remove the Oaths, she'll still be alive, and not even in her middle years. I'm not even sure there's a mechanism for an Aes Sedai to step down as Amyrlin, but not go into retirement as a farmer in Salesin, away from all the politics. She'll definitely be a disrupting force. 

 

 

 

 

Well, the oath is 'I will not use the One Power as a weapon' except blah blah blah, not Saidar. The interpretations of the oaths seem pretty specific to the teaching of the WT with that one, especially the definition of weapon. But the most pertinent fact is that they are generally not mass murdering psychopaths, and with the DO gone there will be less of an inclination towards that.

 

So the Asha'man are not mass murdering psychopaths, but the Aes Sedai are, and the Aes Sedai will use this reasoning to justify not lending the Oath Rod to the Asha'man? 

 

 

Whether the Aes Sedai would be willing to lend the Oath Rod or not, why would the Asha'man willingly bind themselves anyway? They'd be giving up half their live, and restricting themselves, and for... what?

I agree they won't want to be bound. But their lives won't be cut in half if they have the option to retire. And what happens if Aes Sedai who had Asha'man Warders decided to go to the Black Tower when they retire? After all, when they retire, they stop being AS. But their significant others would still be Asha'man. Effectively, the Tower would be shipping its most experienced women, at the prime of their lives, to other places, while the BT will continue to retain its best. Its a huge competitive disadvantage the likes of Cadsuane will spot immediately. Which is why I find the continued use of the OR weird. And maybe Brandon was giving a sneaky answer. What does he mean by "Same purpose"? The same purpose it was used for in the Third Age? Or the same purpose as the Second Age?

You said above you weren't very trustful of BS answer about the OR. While I can understand that about this question:

 

KAMARILE SEDAI (23 JANUARY 2013)

Brandon, does the Oath Rod continue to be used in the Fourth Age? If so, for what purpose?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (23 JANUARY 2013)

So far as I know, yes. And for the same purpose.

 

 

 

 

For this one on the other hand, he definitely seems certain of his answer:

 

 

 

KAMARILE SEDAI

Did men start to use the Oath Rod too, or did it continue to be only women?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

No men. Neither group would like that. The Asha'man are NOT male Aes Sedai. RJ was clear about this in the notes.

 

 

 

No men means no men. There's no ambiguity there.

 

 

Exactly. And I find that if men definitely don't use the OR, then AS continuing to do so makes no sense. That puts a great deal of doubt on his point about AS continuing to use it as before.

[Kahsm]

Think of this scenario: young village yokel (Sam) goes to the White Tower to become a Warder. He meets Asha'man Joe, who's a Warder to Aes Sedai Moe. The yokel soon becomes friends with Joe, and within a few years, becomes Warder to Moe's best friend, Toe. When he turns twenty eight, Sam finds out he has the spark, and can channel. Since he's such good friends with Joe, and Toe and Moe are good friends too, Sam asks Joe to teach him how to channel. Soon, Sam can channel, and does it well. But he never went to the Black Tower, since he'd joined the White already. But nor was he ever in need of the BT's learning. His allegiance is all to the WT. Now he goes to the Warder training yard, and tests out recruits for the latent ability, and finds twenty of them. He decides to teach them, and Moe and Toe, decide to campaign with the Hall to let all these men become Aes Sedai. What exactly can the Black Tower do, here? The same can happen in reverse, with a woman who goes to the BT.

 

Or consider this. Joe and Moe marry, and have a son and a daughter. They're twins. To not separate the twins, they decide to train them together, in the White Tower which is their home. And surrounded as they are by the White Tower and its grandeur, both decide they want to stay on there. Or the reverse happens in the BT. All it takes is for one of the Towers to admit one channeler of the opposite gender for the floodgates to open.

^ This. I suspect this would be the most likely route to a grey tower.

 

Though I'm also not going to throw out 3rd tower too quickly either. I think the WT would have come down hard on an upstart in the past. But given the Dragon's Peace, and there already two "towers", what could they really do to a third tower if it started? Get some Land donated to you (or buy it I guess), sign the Dragon's Peace, then the go to the Aiel and tells them the WT is trying to wipe you out.

[Tud]

Regarding the situation with the AS, I think we are missing a very impotant fact, there are now Ash'aman Warders and bonded AS..A large number of the surviving AS are going to be ruled by their lifle long prejudice to fear AM, but seeing the AM warders interact with their AS and interacting wiht the AS who are bonded to AM will gradually wear that prejudice away. You should also remember that Cadsuane is almost unique in her feelings toward AM. She doesn't hate/fear them; she pities them. with the knowledge that the taint is gone and that the madness can be cured, she will be a signifance force in reconcilling the two organziations. The AM don't need to be AS because their role is different. The AS are servants to all. The AM are guardians to all. The fact that each organization has a different role means that they will remain seperate at thsi time. 

 

The question I have is what exactly will the BT do now that The Dragon's Peace has been instituted? The Aiel have been tasked with settling disputes between the nations, but what's the role of the  BT (One of only two nations/ races/ oganizations left out of the Dragon's Peace..The other being the WT) to be? Are they to act as a police force inside each nation, preventing the oppression of people by more powerful people?  

 

Another question is how will they modifiy their training now that it isn't necessary to force growth in Saiden? Will they adopt the more cautious route that the WT takes in training new AM? I presume so but with a major difference: whereas the WT puts out channelers who are too weak, it is my impression that any man who can channel is accepted, no matter how weak (Androl is a prime example).

 

tud

[Aulduron]

Once people have fought and died together, they learn to get along better.

[MasterAblar]

Think of this scenario: young village yokel (Sam) goes to the White Tower to become a Warder. He meets Asha'man Joe, who's a Warder to Aes Sedai Moe. The yokel soon becomes friends with Joe, and within a few years, becomes Warder to Moe's best friend, Toe. When he turns twenty eight, Sam finds out he has the spark, and can channel. Since he's such good friends with Joe, and Toe and Moe are good friends too, Sam asks Joe to teach him how to channel. Soon, Sam can channel, and does it well. But he never went to the Black Tower, since he'd joined the White already. But nor was he ever in need of the BT's learning. His allegiance is all to the WT. Now he goes to the Warder training yard, and tests out recruits for the latent ability, and finds twenty of them. He decides to teach them, and Moe and Toe, decide to campaign with the Hall to let all these men become Aes Sedai. What exactly can the Black Tower do, here? The same can happen in reverse, with a woman who goes to the BT.

 

Or consider this. Joe and Moe marry, and have a son and a daughter. They're twins. To not separate the twins, they decide to train them together, in the White Tower which is their home. And surrounded as they are by the White Tower and its grandeur, both decide they want to stay on there. Or the reverse happens in the BT. All it takes is for one of the Towers to admit one channeler of the opposite gender for the floodgates to open. 

 

It all begins from Joe. You say Sam was ever in need of the BT's learning, but then what do you think it is that Joe gave him. An Asha'man-Warder is an Asha'man first a Warder second. Joe discovers that Sam can channel, then Sam must either go to the BT to learn, or be taught by Joe personally, but if that's the case you can be certain that Logain will still consider him to be an Asha'man, and will make sure that Sam understands that before any training whatsoever is given. Unless Joe does this in secret of course, but that would be an act of betrayal. I very much doubt Joe would start training male channellers outside of the BT without realising the full implications of what he's doing. This isn't something he would undertake lightly. If he decides to betray the BT and raise his own, or the WT's, group of male channellers, and he gets far enough that the floodgates indeed open, that would generate enormous conflict between the BT and WT, it would draw in the Aiel, and could eventually degenerate into war. And Joe? He would still be an Asha'man and subject to the BT's justice, unless the WT tries to protect him, which would generate even more conflict. The Aes Sedai aren't stupid, Toe and Moe would know what Joe's actions could lead to. And Joe would need to have a good reason to betray the BT in the first place considering the enormous danger he would be in by doing so.

 

In the case of the twins it's the same thing. It still begins from Joe. It always starts from an Asha'man or an Aes Sedai. The training will always be originating from the BT or WT. And the Towers don't offer knowledge for free.

 

I'm sure they'd be of one mind. But the WT way has been to preempt the harm to its reputation by asking its channelers to take Oaths. The BT way, which can evolve, obviously, is to punish perpetrators of crimes. In this case, though, the crime can still happen even though the WT tried to preempt it. Which should show them the uselessness of having the Oaths. All it would take for an Aes Sedai to violate the Oaths is to find a likeminded Asha'man and take him on as a Warder. What's the point of the Oaths, then?

 

The way I see it the WT would be in no way responsible for the actions of teh Asha'man. It would be responsible for the Aes Sedai asking her warder to kill someone, but that's always been the case. If someone was looking for justice for what the Asha'man did though, it's to the BT that they should be speaking, not the WT. The WT doesn't preempt the possibility of a crime by an Asha'man-Warder, because it can't. You're right though it is a bit of a mess, and I suspect it would be one of the first things the BT and WT would clear up. However, an Aes Sedai always had the option of telling her warder to kill someone, and frankly the very large majority of people would have no chance against even a regular warder.

 

I'll get to the oaths at the bottom.

 

I'm saying neither should, and nor should the Aes Sedai.

 

Ah, Ok, that makes more sense.

 

I'm willing to bet "but Egwene Sedai said..." is going to be a phrase the next few Amyrlins are going to hear a lot. Remember that the Novices and Accepted hero worshipped her. And she left them all alive, and took any number of traditional AS to their deaths with her. The Tower is soon going to be inundated with women whose idea of Aes Sedai is Egwene al'Vere. The changes are not even going to be gradual, because of that.

 

 You're right to a certain extent I think. It's true a fair amount of the traditionalists died (hard to say how many precisely), and Egwene left a powerful memory. However, those left in charge now are the traditionalists and they will be the ones to teach the youngest novices and accepted. Egwene's memory will make it more difficult to do so of course. Most important though I think will not be the youngest 15-20 year old ones, but rather the middle aged and elderly novices who won't be "blank pages". They're the ones the Aes Sedai won't be able indoctrinate as easely.

 

They already are. But Cadsuane is no idiot. She doesn't have a death wish. Even if she decides to retire and remove the Oaths, she'll still be alive, and not even in her middle years. I'm not even sure there's a mechanism for an Aes Sedai to step down as Amyrlin, but not go into retirement as a farmer in Salesin, away from all the politics. She'll definitely be a disrupting force. 

 

It all depends on whether the oaths are removed or not, whether for all Aes Sedai or just for those retiring. Romanda (who's dead now but still) was very much against it if I recall correctly. I can't remember if the subject was really brought up again later. Didn't Egwene want them to retire into the Kin. That brings them a little too close to Andor.

 

I agree they won't want to be bound. But their lives won't be cut in half if they have the option to retire. And what happens if Aes Sedai who had Asha'man Warders decided to go to the Black Tower when they retire? After all, when they retire, they stop being AS. But their significant others would still be Asha'man. Effectively, the Tower would be shipping its most experienced women, at the prime of their lives, to other places, while the BT will continue to retain its best. Its a huge competitive disadvantage the likes of Cadsuane will spot immediately. Which is why I find the continued use of the OR weird. And maybe Brandon was giving a sneaky answer. What does he mean by "Same purpose"? The same purpose it was used for in the Third Age? Or the same purpose as the Second Age?

 

Why would the Asha'man bind themselves in the first place if only to release themselves later in their lives? The oaths have meaning for the Aes Sedai because they're a tradition. For the Asha'man, it would just be restriction which they're unlikely to care for consider this is the first time in 3000 years that they are free to make full use of their abilities. And then there's the fact that the oaths have plenty of flaws in the first place.

 

I do agree that the bonded Asha'man and Aes Sedai is going to be a huge headache, if Aes Sedai end up releasing the oaths when they retire. The BT and WT could come to some sort of agreement but that won't change the fact that countless former Aes Sedai would be living in the BT. Either the oaths are given up entirely, or else they're kept for life. Anything else just causes a huge mess for the WT.

 

Exactly. And I find that if men definitely don't use the OR, then AS continuing to do so makes no sense. That puts a great deal of doubt on his point about AS continuing to use it as before.

 

The problem is that the oaths haven't made much sense for quite a while. That's why Egwene wanted get rid of them originally. The idea was a good one (although to a close to the principle of the adam for my liking), to gain people's trust, by swearing not to lie, to not use the power as a weapon, and to not make a weapon for a man to kill another with. But by only following the first to the letter, they made people doubt the validity of all three, and distrust in the Aes Sedai grew instead of shrinking. So their original purpose failed entirely, but they were kept because as Siuan explained to Egwene, they became what defined the Aes Sedai. Which I think, is proof that the WT failed in it's purpose, if not entirely then at least significantly so, since what defined them should have been their role as Servant of All. Regardless, the ultimate reason for the oaths continued existence is simply because they became perhaps the strongest of all Aes Sedai traditions, to the point that even Egwene, ended up adhering to them, all the while being acutely aware of their flaws. It's possible therefore that they might be the last of the outdated Aes Sedai traditions to fall. Which is of course a shame because, as you quite righly said, and I entirely agree, they make no practical sense whatsoever.

 

 ^ This. I suspect this would be the most likely route to a grey tower.

 

Though I'm also not going to throw out 3rd tower too quickly either. I think the WT would have come down hard on an upstart in the past. But given the Dragon's Peace, and there already two "towers", what could they really do to a third tower if it started? Get some Land donated to you (or buy it I guess), sign the Dragon's Peace, then the go to the Aiel and tells them the WT is trying to wipe you out.

 

Considering the amount of open land I don't you'd need to buy any. In any case the problem is that the Aiel are supposed to intervene for conflict between two independent nations or organisations. If Illian and Tear start anything up, the Aiel intervene. The BT (I presume they eventually signed it) and WT get pissed off at each other? Bring in the Aiel. But if the conflict is purely between two members of the same organisation then it isn't their problem. If an Aes Sedai tries to betray the WT and set up her own thing that's the WT's business. Even if Asha'man and Aes Sedai are both involved, the conflict remains within the two organisations not between them. Indeed they would probably work together. So no the Aiel wouldn't be called in for these sorts of cases.

 

Regarding the situation with the AS, I think we are missing a very impotant fact, there are now Ash'aman Warders and bonded AS..A large number of the surviving AS are going to be ruled by their lifle long prejudice to fear AM, but seeing the AM warders interact with their AS and interacting wiht the AS who are bonded to AM will gradually wear that prejudice away. You should also remember that Cadsuane is almost unique in her feelings toward AM. She doesn't hate/fear them; she pities them. with the knowledge that the taint is gone and that the madness can be cured, she will be a signifance force in reconcilling the two organziations. The AM don't need to be AS because their role is different. The AS are servants to all. The AM are guardians to all. The fact that each organization has a different role means that they will remain seperate at thsi time. 

 

The question I have is what exactly will the BT do now that The Dragon's Peace has been instituted? The Aiel have been tasked with settling disputes between the nations, but what's the role of the  BT (One of only two nations/ races/ oganizations left out of the Dragon's Peace..The other being the WT) to be? Are they to act as a police force inside each nation, preventing the oppression of people by more powerful people?  

 

Another question is how will they modifiy their training now that it isn't necessary to force growth in Saiden? Will they adopt the more cautious route that the WT takes in training new AM? I presume so but with a major difference: whereas the WT puts out channelers who are too weak, it is my impression that any man who can channel is accepted, no matter how weak (Androl is a prime example).

 

tud

 

I imagine Cadsuane will help heal the rifts between the two groups yes.

 

The WT didn't sign the Dragon's Peace?! You sure of that?

 

I do think the subject of the BT's future and it's purpose is quite interesting. Do we know what happened to all the shadowspawn? They could function as a police force although I imagine they would deal more with criminals. Their role could also expand beyond being Guardians.

 

I imagine the BT will let up a little on the insane training regimen. They might go at the WT's training pace, but I think they'll probably go faster, since they still have some catching up to do. And I definitely think they'll accept weak channellers. The BT is meant to be a safe haven for all male channellers after all, not just the strong ones.

 

Once people have fought and died together, they learn to get along better.

 

Tell that to Egwene and Tuon.

[Aulduron]

It's too late to tell Egwene, but Tuon knows that former marath damane  (as far as most people know) and so many others made the choice to sacrifice themselves for others. Matt will make sure she thinks on that.

[randalthorr]

I'd prefer Aes'aman.  :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some interesting pieces on the Black Tower/Asha'man

 

. 

 

However, with the Black Tower the only male institute, it will be very hard for any males to establish outside of the BT in any real capacity. Still, I would like to see both parties put away their titles as Aes Sedai and Asha'man and become something different. The Asha'Sedai, I call it. 

[Paul H]

This is off the topic of the recent discussion on this thread, but I think it is in keeping with the parameters of the original post.  I have a couple of legitimate questions about events at the Black Tower in AMoL that I hope maybe someone can answer:

 

• Early in the book, Androl tried several times to make a gateway, but couldn't.  Why couldn't he make a gateway to somewhere within the dome of the dreamspike?  I thought that the dreamspike only prevented Traveling from inside to outside and from outside to inside.  But I thought that a channeler could still make gateways from one location inside the dome to another location inside the dome.  Am I wrong about how this worked in ToM?  (My copy of ToM is loaned out, so I can't check right now.)

 

• Just before Lyrelle and the other Aes Sedai enter the Black Tower to claim their 47 warders, there is some mention of a Black Ajah attack against the Black Tower.  Was this a reference to the small battle that took place when Androl broke free and drove out Taim, etc.?  Or was this a reference to a separate battle that happened later, offscreen?  Maybe this attack was originally planned for inclusion in the book, but got cut.  Has Brandon made any comment on this, that anyone is aware of?

 

[Cybertrolloc]

For the first it seems to unravel the OP channeling weave per Androl's PoV. I don't think we get a description of what happens outside to inside (just mentions that it doesn't work) or a short distance hop inside the range of the Dreamspike.

 

As for Ny Traveling there...

[Lisa Campbell]

Perrin was able to travel within the Dreamspike's field in the dream. From other relatives I would also assume, like you, that Androl could have travelled within the field too. I think this was shown in WH (I think - can't be bothered checking it's late but it was "Working Leather" chapter whatever book). I'm pretty sure the Dreamspike was in effect then but Androl was using gateways to cut leather if that helps :-)

[Mr Ares]

Early in the book, Androl tried several times to make a gateway, but couldn't.  Why couldn't he make a gateway to somewhere within the dome of the dreamspike?  I thought that the dreamspike only prevented Traveling from inside to outside and from outside to inside.  But I thought that a channeler could still make gateways from one location inside the dome to another location inside the dome.  Am I wrong about how this worked in ToM?  (My copy of ToM is loaned out, so I can't check right now.)

As was shown in ToM, the Dreamspike prevents all Gateways forming, except those with the "key". It's possible to make T'a'r hops within the dome, but not Travel.

[Paul H]

 

Early in the book, Androl tried several times to make a gateway, but couldn't.  Why couldn't he make a gateway to somewhere within the dome of the dreamspike?  I thought that the dreamspike only prevented Traveling from inside to outside and from outside to inside.  But I thought that a channeler could still make gateways from one location inside the dome to another location inside the dome.  Am I wrong about how this worked in ToM?  (My copy of ToM is loaned out, so I can't check right now.)

As was shown in ToM, the Dreamspike prevents all Gateways forming, except those with the "key". It's possible to make T'a'r hops within the dome, but not Travel.

 

Thanks for clarifying that for me.  I don't remember the rule about even local gateways (to points within the dome) being prevented, and I don't have my copy of ToM right now so I can't check it, but I take your word that this was established in ToM.  I know that Perrin was able to shift within the World of Dreams inside the dome of the dreamspike, as long as he only shifted to another location that was still within the dome, as you mentioned.  So maybe I had just incorrectly assumed that the same rule must apply to gateways.

[Aulduron]

Even if you could open gateways fully with the dome, nobody but Perrin and Forsaken knew about the dome, so nobody thought to try making them close by.

 

I don't think the spike was being used yet when he cut the leather or when Nynaeve came.

 

I'm pretty sure the Black Aja attack was the one shown. The Ashaman probably didn't want to give the Aes Sedai too much information.