Mat's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[BFG]

And a little off topic. I have a question. I asked this in another thread, but it never got answered. Does anyone know if an a'dam will work on a male channeler if controled by another male who can channel/learn? I know if a male who can learn does it with a female damane they both die, but we've never seen a man controling another man

 

I don't know if it's ever been asked in Q&A but I'd assume not - the a'dam works by creating a corrupted circle between the channelers, whereas men can't link. I think it's stated somewhere that sometimes the Empress (prior to Tuon) sometimes forced her nobles to try the a'dam and generally nothing happened but sometimes they'd die screaming, I think this was with them in control of the link, because I think it's mentioned that the damane die as well and only teh Empress has so many to risk wasting (or some such).

 

 

Back on topic, I agree Tuon does care for Mat - when she's planning on rejoining Mats army Min calls her up (by id-ing Moggy) and Tuon says something similar to 'for once I can do what my heart wants' or something - she wants to go back and help Mat.

 

I also think Mat was a lot better in this book.

[myifanw]

 

Yeah, I'm sure I'm rather biased here.  I've long hated Tuon.  I'm not some huge Egwene fan, but I've been waiting the whole series for someone to say the things Egwene said to her in AMOL.  I wish that scene had been a little more eloquent, but it had some raw power to it nonetheless.  I did recognize passages like the one you quoted as giving her some inner humanity, but all she actually expresses seems to be the qualities I mentioned before.  It seemed like Jordan might have been slowly bringing here around by having Mat soften her up.  I wonder if her imperious demeanor would have continued the way it did in AMOL if he'd still been at the helm.  In the end though, I'm never going to get over the damane thing.  Without that being resolved, I'm pretty much left feeling that she and the Seanchan are a brutal people of confused and superstitious traditions that sorely need to be kicked in the brain.  Every other culture in the series that I can think of evolved more than the Seanchan over the course of the series, and none needed reevaluation of their customs more.  I can't really blame them for being who they are, but I always felt like their harmful traditions should be a more salient point between Mat and Tuon, since he should be able to see them for what they are.

completely agree. Mat wouldn't look past the Damane/Aes Sedai on a chain thing. that's irredeemable. That's like saying "she's a really wonderful person who loves me, so I can look past the whole part about her being a slave-owner. That's just the society she grew up in" uh, no. that does not fly for me. 

There is at least one line about how he did not like the idea, and was trying to convince her to change. Think it was right after he had to catch a domane himself.

[Suttree]

I know a lot of people dislike her for being Seanchan, and a sul'dam at that, but remember not all sul'dam are like the one that caught Egwene.  Like Tuon, a lot of them actually care about damane and treat them well.  Hell they down right spoil them most of the time and a lot of damane are really truly happy.  They are not a bad people, just different.  Yes, they have some bad people, but every society does.  The world isn't so black and white.  Hell, give me a choice between being a leashed damane to a caring sul'dam or a regular servant to some Cairhien or Tairan noble and I'd choose the leash with out hesitation.

 

You can not possibly be serious. You would rather be turned into something sub human and have your very identity stripped away(in many cases beaten out of you, if you think even the good sul'dam don't do so while training you are kidding yourself) over being a servant!?!? The scenes of them being given "treats" and purring up to get pet on the head, and begging to be leashed again are absolutely stomache churning.

[flinn]

I would think the outriggers would go much more into the damane politics.

 

There really wasnt any time at all to even get invested in that.

[Edynol]

I don't know if it's ever been asked in Q&A but I'd assume not - the a'dam works by creating a corrupted circle between the channelers, whereas men can't link. I think it's stated somewhere that sometimes the Empress (prior to Tuon) sometimes forced her nobles to try the a'dam and generally nothing happened but sometimes they'd die screaming, I think this was with them in control of the link, because I think it's mentioned that the damane die as well and only teh Empress has so many to risk wasting (or some such).

Yeah I know about the empress doing that with nobles, which is what I was addressing with men who can learn, as it's obvious that those nobles who died were men who could learn.  But yeah, I know it shouldn't be possible for a man to link with another man without a female, but also it shouldn't be possible to force another channeler into a circle, so maybe an a'dam would bypass the requirement for a female to link two men.  I guess we'll have to wait til someone asks BS or Harriet in the next Q&A, if they have one.

[BFG]

yup should have been a full stop between Q&A and but.

 

Afraid I just have speculation.

[Edynol]

You can not possibly be serious. You would rather be turned into something sub human and have your very identity stripped away(in many cases beaten out of you, if you think even the good sul'dam don't do so while training you are kidding yourself) over being a servant!?!? The scenes of them being given "treats" and purring up to get pet on the head, and begging to be leashed again are absolutely stomache churning.

Yep.  Getting to lounge around and be pampered without having any real responsibility what so ever is my idea of heaven.  Are you saying you'd rather be some disposable servant who gets used as a plaything and then discarded like your nothing for little pay and nothing to show for it?  You think they have anymore of an identity than a damane?  Nobody who cares for you or really even acknowledge your existence?  And if you're a woman, get knocked up by some noble then just casually murdered and tossed in a ditch so his wife doesn't find out?  Yeah.  I'd much rather be on a leash and have someone who genuinely cares about me.

[Suttree]

 

 

You can not possibly be serious. You would rather be turned into something sub human and have your very identity stripped away(in many cases beaten out of you, if you think even the good sul'dam don't do so while training you are kidding yourself) over being a servant!?!? The scenes of them being given "treats" and purring up to get pet on the head, and begging to be leashed again are absolutely stomache churning.

Yep.  Getting to lounge around and be pampered without having any real responsibility what so ever is my idea of heaven.  Are you saying you'd rather be some disposable servant who gets used as a plaything and then discarded like your nothing for little pay and nothing to show for it?  You think they have anymore of an identity than a damane?  Nobody who cares for you or really even acknowledge your existence?  And if you're a woman, get knocked up by some noble then just casually murdered and tossed in a ditch so his wife doesn't find out?  Yeah.  I'd much rather be on a leash and have someone who genuinely cares about me.

There is absolutely zero comparison between the two. For one thing as a servant you can up and leave whenever you want. You can travel to make a better life for yourself(outside of the two worst examples you can come up with in Randland, there are other opportunities). Bottom line you still keep your humanity, you are not turned into an animal and you still have free will. I honestly pity anyone who would give that up for "pampering"(with the occasional beating and rape thrown in).

[Agitel]

In most of the nations of Randland, the common classes retain a large degree of rights (which is what I think has made the monarchic system maintainable in this world). Outside of maybe Tear, and maybe even not there, people don't live in serfdom. They are emancipated.

[Edynol]

There is absolutely zero comparison between the two. For one thing as a servant you can up and leave whenever you want. You can travel to make a better life for yourself(outside of the two worst examples you can come up with in Randland, there are other opportunities). Bottom line you still keep your humanity, you are not turned into an animal and you still have free will. I honestly pity anyone who would give that up for "pampering"(with the occasional beating and rape thrown in).

You're right in that there is no comparison between the two.  I guess it comes down to taste.  I myself don't mind being leashed and dominate as it is .  And you make it sound a lot easier than it actually is for a servant to just up and leave for something better.  Even in today's world, here in the land of opportunity, it is hard to just leave crappy job and find something better.  And those two worst examples I gave are actually the most common.  There are very few nobles who treat their servants with any semblance of dignity.  and those who do are few and far between.

[Treebeard]

I can not believe what i am reading someone that want to be a damane rather than a human being , you know some of them are being "mutilated , as there is no need for hands feet's or tongues  to bee able to channel" (The world of The Wheel of Time)

[Suttree]

 

 

There is absolutely zero comparison between the two. For one thing as a servant you can up and leave whenever you want. You can travel to make a better life for yourself(outside of the two worst examples you can come up with in Randland, there are other opportunities). Bottom line you still keep your humanity, you are not turned into an animal and you still have free will. I honestly pity anyone who would give that up for "pampering"(with the occasional beating and rape thrown in).

You're right in that there is no comparison between the two.  I guess it comes down to taste.  I myself don't mind being leashed and dominate as it is . 

Yes! That was awesome. Quote of the day for sure. =)

[Edynol]

 

 

 

There is absolutely zero comparison between the two. For one thing as a servant you can up and leave whenever you want. You can travel to make a better life for yourself(outside of the two worst examples you can come up with in Randland, there are other opportunities). Bottom line you still keep your humanity, you are not turned into an animal and you still have free will. I honestly pity anyone who would give that up for "pampering"(with the occasional beating and rape thrown in).

You're right in that there is no comparison between the two.  I guess it comes down to taste.  I myself don't mind being leashed and dominate as it is . 

Yes! That was awesome. Quote of the day for sure. =)

Heheh.  Thanks.  Your prior post was just was I was hoping for so I could post that. XD Sorry if it seemed I was actually being serious before that. :)

[Mr. Micawber]

Yeah, but you have a safe word, and you can always choose. I don't know if you get what's going on here. This isn't BDSM. To borrow a phrase from a far greater author, it's "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever."

[Edynol]

Yeah, but you have a safe word, and you can always choose. I don't know if you get what's going on here. This isn't BDSM. To borrow a phrase from a far greater author, it's "If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever."

lol.  I don't get what's going on here?  Sure, okay.  I am clueless.

 

Anyways, back on topic.  I don't think a lot of people truly understand Tuon and the Seanchan.  And it's not their fault they are the way they are, it's Ishy's, for the most part.  Remember he poisoned Hawkwing's mind against Aes Sedai, and from that stemmed the belief that all channelers were responsible for the breaking and were dangerous.  If you recall, even those in the Two Rivers believed that all Aes Sedai were responsible for the breaking, except maybe Tam, but they weren't so gung ho about like others were, like Whitecloaks, Tear, and Seanchan.  So see in Seanchan, they believed that in collaring channelers, they were actually protecting the world.

[MattHildenbrandt]

 

Anyways, back on topic.  I don't think a lot of people truly understand Tuon and the Seanchan.  And it's not their fault they are the way they are, it's Ishy's, for the most part.  Remember he poisoned Hawkwing's mind against Aes Sedai, and from that stemmed the belief that all channelers were responsible for the breaking and were dangerous.  If you recall, even those in the Two Rivers believed that all Aes Sedai were responsible for the breaking, except maybe Tam, but they weren't so gung ho about like others were, like Whitecloaks, Tear, and Seanchan.  So see in Seanchan, they believed that in collaring channelers, they were actually protecting the world.

This seems to be one of the most forgotten elements of the whole Seanchan arc. I bring it up every time somebody mentions them, and figuratively speaking, get the blank stare. It's refreshing seeing somebody else remember it.

[Edynol]

Yeah I loved that line too!  lol.  Even Rand laughed!  I also loved Talmanes' arc in the story.  It was awesome to get a few POVs from him.

 

Edit: Like wise.  I think the Seanchan are the most misunderstood people in the series.  To me, one of the other major focuses on this story, right there with the whole balance theme, is that 1st impressions are often wrong.  Don't judge someone by their actions until you learn the reasons of those actions.

 

Also, I like that Talmanes got promoted from minor character to major support character.  He deserved it.

[batcaver]

Snowball,

 

You really need to get this information to Leigh Butler. She seems to have NO IDEA about cultural context. 

 

Cultural context doesn't absolve you in the slightest.

[Frost Wynters]

I liked Mat in this one. He seemed more "himself" especially in The Last Battle.  It made me wonder if this part was done mostly by Jordan (because Sanderson has done a piss poor job of writing him)

 

 I think it would've been cool, if Demandred and Mat had fought each other at least once. ( perhaps with Demandred on the ropes and having to gateway out).

 

Could've done without the Hinderstrap townspeople.  That seemed like Brandon being an ass and trying to be funny or something.

 

I would've liked to have seen the Hawkwing and Tuon meeting.  Though i believe that, had the outriggers come out, we'd have seen the scene.

[papertiger]

Batcaver,

 

Sure it does! I mean, here's a culture that's been warped by Ishmael himself repeatedly over the past millenium. They set up a corrupt but internally justified and horrifically efficient powerbase. You can't expect them to wipe all that out in less than a generation, even with the revelation of the damane/sul'dam.

 

It's hardware/software. The Seanchan have been running Windows Vista for a thousand years. Give them a break! 

[Edynol]

I think the Hinderstrap idea was freakin brilliant!  I mean, think about.  You are trapped in a village, and know that every night you and everyone else is going to go mad and slaughter each other.  Now here's an opportunity that a) prevents everyone from killing each other at night, b) allows you to help defend the light while also sparing other people from death, and c) lets you get some revenge on the shadow over and over again for what it put your people through.  I'd be right giddy if I were in their shoes at that time.

[mrdravid]

Do we have much discussion in the seies about how the Seanchan damane feel about being collared initially? The reactions that we get are Randland characters that need to be broken, but there was a Sharan that was collared in AMOL and there was surprise that the Sharan didn't have to be broken.

 

Obviously different cultures have different responses to channelling. Maybe the Senchan damanes with a different expectation of what it means to be able to channel have a different response to being collared?

[papertiger]

The Hinderstrap idea is also the exact kind of thing Mat would come up with...which is what made it so awesome!

 

What a trickster.

[papertiger]

Mr David,

 

There are a number of scenes where Rand or Nynaeve attempt to free Seanchan channelers, only to have them run around screaming to be collared again. I'd imagine that the Seanchan channelers who become damane feel the same way that male channelers used to; they are monsters who must be protected from themselves.

 

I wonder if any of them wished they'd been sul'dam instead. The testing has to be so similar that some of them had to find a connection between the two.

 

Also, Alivia seems to be the exception to the rule. 

[Edynol]

Do we have much discussion in the seies about how the Seanchan damane feel about being collared initially? The reactions that we get are Randland characters that need to be broken, but there was a Sharan that was collared in AMOL and there was surprise that the Sharan didn't have to be broken. Obviously different cultures have different responses to channelling. Maybe the Senchan damanes with a different expectation of what it means to be able to channel have a different response to being collared?

There is a little bit insight into that.  Most people in Seanchan who discover they can channel willingly turn themselves over to being collared because they believe its the right thing to do so they don't harm their families or beloved empire.  There are exceptions, like Alivia, but for the most part, Seanchan damane enjoy being collard.  At least those with kind and caring sul'dam.

 

The Hinderstrap idea is also the exact kind of thing Mat would come up with...which is what made it so awesome!

 

What a trickster.

Yep!  I cheered out loud at that.