Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[jack of shadows]

@thehoovedone1,

"so it is logical to conclude that neither side can win."

according to robert jordan,there are degrees of victory and i agree.

in my opinion,rand won a very resounding victory this time,the bore was completely

obliterated,not just sealed-it doesn't exist anymore:"purity.light itself.this didn't repair,

it didn't patch,it forged anew".

rand also left in his wake a peace treaty,a black tower,an academy in cairhien(and soon

all over randland),a lake of sweet water in rhuidean and clean saidin.

on a personal level,rand did manage to stay alive,got a new body,has three amazing lovers

including(well,almost)six children and some very interesting new powers.what more do we

need to annouce him the victor?

 

thousands years into the future,a new lanfear is going to drill the bore yet again,the pattern will

take the same corrective actions as always and the dragon will ride once again on the winds

of time.....but it's still a long way away.

[InfinLuminous]

But based upon RJ's quotes, the Dragon could fight for the Shadow and it doesn't even matter in the grand scheme of things. The DO's prison is still sealed anew by someone else. Kind of destroys the importance of the Dragon. I suspect RJ didn't even really have a grasp in his own world, which is incredibly disappointing.

[Sabio]

I think this goes into the many worlds type of thing.  If Rand goes over to the shadow in world A then he fights for the light in world B.  Which is why I think the world can keep turning since if the DO killed off everyone on this world, that on other worlds mankind would be thriving.  At least that's how I looked at it. 

[Suttree]

May have been linked already somewhere but I haven't seen it. Interesting back notes on Rand and the struggle against the DO. Cool to see how things evolved over the years.

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlNahMUCAAA-CTg.jpg

[damandred]

Great stuff, very interesting.

[jack of shadows]

@infinluminous,

you know,the more i think about it,the more i realize how absosutely right you are.

the dragon should have been the eternal constant,the one and only soul permanently faithful to the light.

judging from the only dragon we know(and it's the same soul over and over again) i find the notion of

a rogue dragon utterly inconceivable,i could envision rand standing on top of dragonmount and destroying

the world in a fit of rage,but bowing and serving someone like elan morin?not in a million years(even lanfear

couldn't sway rand from his path and she pushed his buttons a lot better).

in your previous post you wrote:(in case of dark dragon)"someone else(or a group of people)would need to

stop the do from breaking free....",so i tried to imagine rand telling all the rulers at the field of merrilor meeting

that he had enough and he is leaving them to their own devices.

could anyone else take control of the situation and lead the forces of light instead of rand? i highly doubt it,

the only thing that comes to mind is a massive headless chicken dance,don't get me wrong,i am not diminishing

their(forces of ligh)contributions,they fought bravely for land and future,but they needed their dragon,he was

their symbol,their figurehead and their battle cry:"RAND WOULD PRESERVE THEM,IF THEY COULD GIVE

HIM ENOUGH TIME".

let me conclude my post with your words:"i suspect rj didn't even really have a grasp in his own world,which is

incredibly disppointing".

[Sabio]

But again with the many worlds thing, anything is possible.  The dragon isn't the creator he is man, so he isn't perfect and he has the same temptations and weaknesses as others.  Rand strength in the end was how he was brought up.  What if Taim had taught him, look out for yourself and might makes right.  But again with the many world thing happening if the dragon stayed true to the light in world A why wouldn't there be a world that he said you know what the shadow is offering me a better deal. 

[jack of shadows]

@sabio,

my previous post is about the dragon's redundancy.i am well aware that the dragon

is only human and quite capable of making mistakes on his own.

lews therin never turned to the shadow and always served the light,but he made mistakes

and his mistakes caused an unmitigated disaster,tragic but understandable,like i said,

he was only human after all.

according to robert jordan,there were times when the dragon crossed over to the dark side

and the outcome of the(then)last battle was a draw.

this statement renders the dragon superfluous,we already know that the dark one never managed

to break free completely,or never managed to subjugate the whole world to his reign of terror,so in

times when the dragon turned dark,the light forces were able to circumvent a dark dragon by

replacing him with someone else.is this even possible?i highly doubt it.

signs of impending apocalypse(last battle)will always bring the dragon back into play(and let me remind

you,it's always the same soul),so why bother if the dragon is dispensable?

in my opinion,robert jordan didn't think this one all the way through.

[Sabio]

The DO never managed to get humanity to lose hope and give up.  Which for the DO is victory.  The dragon had turned to the shadow and in a military sense wiped out the forces of good.  But as Rand pointed out that really isn't what the DO wants.  He wants to break the spirit of man, make them beg for mercy etc... No matter how big Dem's army was, how many people Dem killed the forces of light never ran or begged.  SO the DO might of conquered the forces of good at times but he doesn't treat that as the victory he wants.  If Rand died or turned there we be no sudden second dragon showing up to save the day.  The forces of light would fight to the bitter end but would not have their spirits broken. 

[damandred]

 

I find Jordan's quotes very troubling. If the Dragon has gone over to the Shadow before (and thus the Shadow claims a "lesser" victory but not a complete victory), then that means someone had to stop both the Dark One AND the turned-Dragon to avoid the Dark One breaking free completely. If that is the case, then the Dragon almost seems superfluous in the grand scheme of things. The Dragon is obviously not the only person capable of preventing the Dark One from breaking free and sealing him away again. Someone (or a group of people) is capable of not only re-sealing the DO, but defeating an evil Dragon while doing it!! Jordan's quotes render the Dragon/CoL almost meaningless.

This is a problem i also have. Thats why i maintain that the Rand/third age dragon has never been turned and Isamael/RJ had to of been refering to a LTT/AoL dragon as that one isnt so vital. Were someone else could patch up the bore, only the DR can forge it anew.

That would solve the problem for me, but leaves more questions like, how do souls who have gone over to the DO escape to be reborn.

Just thought id bump up this old post as i think it answers the problem of a dark dragon quite well, even if i do say so myself!

[damandred]

Double

[Mr Ares]

@sabio,

my previous post is about the dragon's redundancy.i am well aware that the dragon

is only human and quite capable of making mistakes on his own.

lews therin never turned to the shadow and always served the light,but he made mistakes

and his mistakes caused an unmitigated disaster,tragic but understandable,like i said,

he was only human after all.

according to robert jordan,there were times when the dragon crossed over to the dark side

and the outcome of the(then)last battle was a draw.

this statement renders the dragon superfluous,we already know that the dark one never managed

to break free completely,or never managed to subjugate the whole world to his reign of terror,so in

times when the dragon turned dark,the light forces were able to circumvent a dark dragon by

replacing him with someone else.is this even possible?i highly doubt it.

signs of impending apocalypse(last battle)will always bring the dragon back into play(and let me remind

you,it's always the same soul),so why bother if the dragon is dispensable?

in my opinion,robert jordan didn't think this one all the way through.

It's worth remembering that Moridin was willing to manipulate the Dragon into inadvertently aiding the Shadow, he didn't need him to switch sides. Why couldn't the Light use the same trick? The Dragon is a useful tool, but it's possible to win without him on your side.

[jack of shadows]

@mr ares,

"why couldn't the light use the same trick?"

would you care to elaborate on that?

it's also worth remembering that moridin wasn't the only manipulator around,

rand was surrounded by a bunch of manipulators from day one.lol.

[Mr Ares]

@mr ares,

"why couldn't the light use the same trick?"

would you care to elaborate on that?

it's also worth remembering that moridin wasn't the only manipulator around,

rand was surrounded by a bunch of manipulators from day one.lol.

There were a lot of manipulators, but who else had Moridin's agenda? He was willing to use Rand to further the Shadow's agenda even if he didn't turn to the Shadow - most of the others trying to manipulate him were on the side of the Light, trying to further either their own plans or those of the Light. The Shadow typically wanted him turned or dead or would just work around him.

 

We see that there are three ways to win Sha'rah - control the Fisher and guide him to the goal line, let the enemy control him but leave them with moves that benefit you, or kill 'em all. While the Shadow does make attempts to turn Rand or kill him, they also make attempts to use him to their advantage without turning him - TGS is a good example, where Rand came close to the edge but not to joining the Shadow. The thing is, this sort of plan isn't available to only one side (even if the specifics, such as the TP, were). If the Dragon became a Darkfriend, but was forced into a position where his actions helped the Light, then a Dark Dragon could be a tool of the Light. Consider that a Rand who was close to destroying the world was bad for the Light despite being on their side - but a Dragon who sought to preserve or protect the world, despite being sworn to the Shadow, might hamstring the Shadow and inadvertantly give hope to the Light. Imagine if Rand had joined the Shadow, but Elayne, Min and Aviendha hadn't - they would still be tools that could be used against him, to distract him, to restrain his more destructive urges for fear of hurting them, that sort of thing. Or perhaps he could be convinced that his greatest threats lay within the Shadow, leading him to civil war while the Light has a chance to regroup. So I think that even if Rand turned to the Shadow, people good enough at pulling his strings could make him take actions that ended up helping the Light. Given that your actions might serve either side, regardless of which side you're nominally on, the Dragon can both go over to the Shadow and still be vital for the Light to win.

[Finnssss22]

Wrong! If Rand is turned to the Shadow, there is no way for the light to win. RJ expressed this in numerous interviews.

 

Robert Jordan:

Think of it this way. The bell is about to ring for the fifteenth round, and the Light is so far behind on points the only way to win is a knockout. Our boy is game, but he's wobbly on his legs and bleeding from cuts over his eyes. Now he has three minutes to pull out his best stuff and deliver the punch of his life. The Dark One has taken a few shots, but nothing that has really damaged him. He's still dancing on his toes and talking trash. His head shots can fracture a skull, and his body punches can break ribs. And now he's ready to unveil his surprises. You didn't think all it would take is for Rand to show up at the Last Battle, did you? According to the Prophecies, the Light has no chance without him, but his presence doesn't ensure victory, just that the Light has a chance. Gotta stiffen your legs and blink the blood out of your eyes. Gotta suck it up and find that punch. Three minutes to go, and you gotta find that knockout. That's your only chance.

Robert Jordan:

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

[Suttree]

 

Robert Jordan:

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Clearly there are degrees of victory for both sides. It seems rather pedantic to quibble over how to classify a draw/being able to "stay in the game".

[Finnssss22]

 

Robert Jordan:

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Clearly there are degrees of victory for both sides. It seems rather pedantic to quibble over how to classify a draw/being able to "stay in the game".

 

That's not what he's arguing though. He's arguing that even if Rand was turned to the Shadow, that the forces of Light might be able manipulate him enough to still win. THAT is clearly not an option according to RJ. A tie is the best they could hope for in that situation.

[Mr Ares]

 

 

Robert Jordan:

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Clearly there are degrees of victory for both sides. It seems rather pedantic to quibble over how to classify a draw/being able to "stay in the game".

 

That's not what he's arguing though. He's arguing that even if Rand was turned to the Shadow, that the forces of Light might be able manipulate him enough to still win. THAT is clearly not an option according to RJ. A tie is the best they could hope for in that situation.

Actually, those quotes don't say I'm wrong.

[jack of shadows]

@mr ares,

"there were a lot of manipulators,but who else had moridin's agenda?"

you did raise an interesting point,but moridin was hardly the only one with dark agenda,

mesaana did the same thing to rand albeit indirectly,instead of manipulating rand she

manipulated elaida to do her bidding,but the end result was still the same.

in a journey full of hardships,heartaches,heartbreaks and creator-knows what else,

dumai's wells had(arguably) the most profound effect on rand's state of mind.

[Mr Ares]

@mr ares,

"there were a lot of manipulators,but who else had moridin's agenda?"

you did raise an interesting point,but moridin was hardly the only one with dark agenda,

mesaana did the same thing to rand albeit indirectly,instead of manipulating rand she

manipulated elaida to do her bidding,but the end result was still the same.

in a journey full of hardships,heartaches,heartbreaks and creator-knows what else,

dumai's wells had(arguably) the most profound effect on rand's state of mind.

Well, Dumai's Wells was a result of things getting out of hand for everyone - so the damage Mesaana caused was more by accident than design. If Mesaana actually had Rand in hand, she might well have just handed him over to Shai'tan.

[Finnssss22]

 

@mr ares,

"there were a lot of manipulators,but who else had moridin's agenda?"

you did raise an interesting point,but moridin was hardly the only one with dark agenda,

mesaana did the same thing to rand albeit indirectly,instead of manipulating rand she

manipulated elaida to do her bidding,but the end result was still the same.

in a journey full of hardships,heartaches,heartbreaks and creator-knows what else,

dumai's wells had(arguably) the most profound effect on rand's state of mind.

Well, Dumai's Wells was a result of things getting out of hand for everyone - so the damage Mesaana caused was more by accident than design. If Mesaana actually had Rand in hand, she might well have just handed him over to Shai'tan.

 

There's more than a case to be made that Dumai's Wells was ALL orchestrated by Demandred as a result from his meeting with the Great Lord in the prologue.

He was working with Mesaana and he was Taim's master so to speak.

As we discover later, the DO's main plan was to unbalance Rand and set him on the path to be turned to the Shadow. No single event furthered that goal more than Dumai's Wells, that was the beginning of Dark Rand.

Seems to be more by design than accident as evidenced by the very last paragraph of the book...

 

LoC Epilogue:

Demandred knelt in the Pit of Doom, and for once he did not care that Shaidar Haran watched his trembling with that eyeless, impassive gaze. "Have I not done well, Great Lord?"

The Great Lord's laughter filled Demandred's head.

[Occams whiskey bottle]

 

 

 

Robert Jordan:

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once—you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

 

Clearly there are degrees of victory for both sides. It seems rather pedantic to quibble over how to classify a draw/being able to "stay in the game".

 

That's not what he's arguing though. He's arguing that even if Rand was turned to the Shadow, that the forces of Light might be able manipulate him enough to still win. THAT is clearly not an option according to RJ. A tie is the best they could hope for in that situation.

Actually, those quotes don't say I'm wrong.

 

 

My interpretation has been that The Dragon Reborn is the gatekeeper so to speak. He's always there to battle the Dark One. If the Dragon wins then pack up your bags, go home and have some cake. However, if The Dragon loses or switches sides then the Dark One still has to convert everyone else. He would need to beat everyone down into submission to win, which is why in the earliest pages of Eye of the World everyone is "denying the Dark One" because in actuality the Dark One can only win if you stop fighting him. The Dragon winning makes everything easier even though for the Dark One to win he would need to learn to herd cats...

[Mr Ares]

 

 

@mr ares,

"there were a lot of manipulators,but who else had moridin's agenda?"

you did raise an interesting point,but moridin was hardly the only one with dark agenda,

mesaana did the same thing to rand albeit indirectly,instead of manipulating rand she

manipulated elaida to do her bidding,but the end result was still the same.

in a journey full of hardships,heartaches,heartbreaks and creator-knows what else,

dumai's wells had(arguably) the most profound effect on rand's state of mind.

Well, Dumai's Wells was a result of things getting out of hand for everyone - so the damage Mesaana caused was more by accident than design. If Mesaana actually had Rand in hand, she might well have just handed him over to Shai'tan.

 

There's more than a case to be made that Dumai's Wells was ALL orchestrated by Demandred as a result from his meeting with the Great Lord in the prologue.

He was working with Mesaana and he was Taim's master so to speak.

As we discover later, the DO's main plan was to unbalance Rand and set him on the path to be turned to the Shadow. No single event furthered that goal more than Dumai's Wells, that was the beginning of Dark Rand.

Seems to be more by design than accident as evidenced by the very last paragraph of the book...

 

LoC Epilogue:

Demandred knelt in the Pit of Doom, and for once he did not care that Shaidar Haran watched his trembling with that eyeless, impassive gaze. "Have I not done well, Great Lord?"

The Great Lord's laughter filled Demandred's head.

 

Taim went to Dumai's Wells on his own initiative, after discovering Rand was missing and tracking him down. And the Shaido were not working for Demandred.

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

On the Asha'man finding Rand in Lord of Chaos, he said that they knew where Rand was. How they did know he began with the following words: "Mazrim Taim is a paranoid S.O.B." [exact quote!]. When finding out of the disappearance of Rand, and a large bunch of Aiel from Cairhien, he followed the route from Cairhien towards Tar Valon by Traveling, until he encountered Elaida's Aes Sedai. From there, he brought in the Asha'man.

 

 

QUESTION

How did Taim track Rand down for the battle of Dumai’s Wells?

ROBERT JORDAN

That ones easy, son! C’mon. At that point, Taim was trying to find him like the devil. He knew pretty much what had happened from the beginning. Things were happening. The Aes Sedai disappeared from Cairhien. Perrin disappeared. Rand disappeared. Taim had an idea that something very bad was going on, and when you can Travel it becomes easier to start tracking out where did these Aes Sedai go and Bingo, we got something very bad going on down here, and I’m gonna come and tear the house down. It’s very easy.

[wotfan4472]

Are you sure Ares?? We know Demandred was involved. How was he???? Taim was an obvious option; in fact the only option we have.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Well, I think it was Graendal or Sammael who said that it was Mesaana's plan, and maybe Semirhage and Demandred, despite how it turned out. [Paraphrased]

 

SO we don't really KNOW he was involved in it. If he was, he wasn't directing Taim directly or else he would have just told him where to Travel to. 

 

Personally I think the idea was to sow discord between the White and Black Tower. Demandred as we are told, uses proxies. The DO gives the whole "Lord of Chaos" order. He probably put some pressure on Taim to find Rand, knowing of Mesaana's plan (of course, if he had acted openly, Mesaana might have been pissed at him interfering and with their whole 'alliance' he wouldn't risk that.) so he planted the seeds in Taim's head and let it roll..