Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Hopefire]

Considering we know the ultimate victory of the Shadow is in fact nothingness, I think you might be on to something, bro

I agree. The corrupt futures aren't the Dark One's goal. The corrupt futures were used to try to drive Rand towards accepting 'compromise,' while that compromise is actually victory. The corrupt worlds are the compromise.

[jack of shadows]

the battle between rand and the dark one was beautifully written with a satisfying conclusion,

my problems are with the aftermath,it left me happy,sad and mostly bitter.

my heart went out for two people,nynaeve and tam.

with nynaeve,we always knew where we stand,there is not a shred of ambiguity about her,

she arrived to the meeting at the field of merrilor with perrin,her message loud and clear:

i stand with rand!

she fought with rand at the gates of hell,and tried to heal him when(she thought) he was

dying,and it almost broke her.

tam stood with a torch in hand,slumped shoulders,tears in his eyes and a few words of goodbye....

a few hours later,

our legendary hero woke up with a new body,a bag full of coins,a good sword and....

and then rode away!!!!not a word to nynaeve or tam or his three girls, absolutly nothing.

[DukeBob]

The DO is essential for life. How can you have happiness without sadness. Opposites are required.

 

I had a thought regarding Rand no longer being able to channel. We know that the TP is blocked by the bore. Do we know if Moridin ever used the OP? He may have only ever had access to the TP.

 

As for the body swap. The DO has been doing this since day one with the forsaken. Why wouldn't the Creator have the same ability? Rand died. The Creator brought him back into Moridin's body.

 

Lastly perhaps Rand's new ability is the Creator's version of the TP.

[Guest AgDragon01]

I think Rand is an emergent Creator, or at least an avatar of the Creator.

 

1. The DO calls him Adversary.

2. The Creator and the DO fight each other using the pattern, as Rand and the DO fight each other.

3. The DO shows Rand a version of the world without Light. It makes sense that Rand as the Creator would show the DO a version of the world without Dark

4. In the turning of the wheel as described by the philosopher guy that got massacred by the gholam (herid? I forget his name), in one turn the people find the DO sealed up by the Creator and release him, in another turn Lews Therin seals him up by patching the bore, and in the next turn, the DO has to be sealed up again by the Creator. Rand does this, and it seems to be a drastically different type of sealing than the imperfect patch at the end of the War of Power.

5. The Creator's voice is heard from Rand in at the end of the Eye of the World, and again in MoL when Rand is about to enter Shayol Ghul.

6. The obvious point, he lights his pipe using thought alone.

 

I think Nakomi is another such avatar from previous turn of the wheel, and I think Rand will live a simple life of obscurity, wandering the earth for eternity until he's needed to play a very small role in the next turning of the wheel, just as Nakomi did. I feel like it makes sense mythologically, as the Dragon is a symbol of transcendence. Rand is right when he says something to the affect of the Dark One not being the point. The point is about getting to a place where the Creator emerges within the everyman, in this case Rand. The actual sealing up of the Dark One seems to almost be an afterthought.

[flinn]

Since there is no Lan arc that I see, and it does involve the Rand/DO confrotation I will put it here...

 

How did the DO not know Lan was alive?

He is the Ruler of the Grave and considering he was bragging about taking the King of Nothing, you would think it was confirmed.

[Lonewolf-VII]

I don't quite understand the body switch/ merge at the end but I I guess thats the point. The whole thing about balance of light and dark, Rand and Morodin becoming one and the same is what I took from it.

 

Maybe the ending shows that now there's an equal balance of good and evil in the world (creator and DO both now outside existence) so it becomes something new entirely and that's what we also see with the main character, the wanderer, free to determine his own path finally free of the weave.

[WhiskyJack]

The DO is essential for life. How can you have happiness without sadness. Opposites are required.

 

I had a thought regarding Rand no longer being able to channel. We know that the TP is blocked by the bore. Do we know if Moridin ever used the OP? He may have only ever had access to the TP.

 

As for the body swap. The DO has been doing this since day one with the forsaken. Why wouldn't the Creator have the same ability? Rand died. The Creator brought him back into Moridin's body.

 

Lastly perhaps Rand's new ability is the Creator's version of the TP.

 

 

Channeling is linked to one's soul.

[Amandera]

Lastly perhaps Rand's new ability is the Creator's version of the TP.

Umm, Creator's version of the TP is OP.

[dogf00d]

 

The only problem I have with it is was his god powers in ToM.  I also would probably have him die at the end, but the ending was still awesome as written.

God powers in ToM? You hadn't seen nothing yet lol

 

How about the fact he can either alter reality with his mind now, or he is a pyrokinetic.

I think this is something definitely up for speculation.

 

It's one of the things that is kinda niggling at me in the end. He can no longer channel, nor touch the new power.... but he could unconciously conjure up the wind and light his pipe with a thought? I wasn't sure if it was some kind of inference that when he transferred bodies and used "Light" instead of the 5 powers, that he now had access to something else? Creator power in some respect? I'm not sure lol.

 

Edit: AgDragon01, I think you hit the nail on the head completely. I just didn't read your post lol.

[flinn]

He can fully manipulate the pattern now... Did you see him take hold of the pattern and work it? 

You notice how grass and blooms were popping up at Shayol Gul?

He burned himself out and cannot channel, he doesnt need to, he can bend the pattern to fit his needs.

[John Everyman]

*double post*

[John Everyman]

I was definitely left with a "Jesus" impression at the end.  And we thought TOM Rand was Jesus Rand.

 

So, I'm guessing he'll spend his days traveling the land, seeing new places, meeting new people, and performing the occasional miracle.  Not a bad way to go.  I wonder, though, if he's now immortal, or if he has a normal, non-channeler life span.

 

Interesting that Egwene seemingly becomes part of the pattern, and Rand becomes a more mundane kind of walking God.  Are kids have finally grown up

[dogf00d]

I was definitely left with a "Jesus" impression at the end.  And we thought TOM Rand was Jesus Rand.

 

So, I'm guessing he'll spend his days traveling the land, seeing new places, meeting new people, and performing the occasional miracle.  Not a bad way to go.  I wonder, though, if he's now immortal, or if he has a normal, non-channeler life span.

 

Interesting that Egwene seemingly becomes part of the pattern, and Rand becomes a more mundane kind of walking God.  Are kids have finally grown up

Yeah I got that feel as well really.

 

As much as I don't mind the idea of him walking off into obscurity, it also bothers me with the implications.

 

Min, Aviendha and Elayne are just going to forget about it? I have a feeling Min will follow him as the other two are so duty bound. But what about his kids? Including the ones that he's supposed to have other than the twins? Or will Rand just pop up one day with God powers and decide to play daddy in secret or something? I dunno, it bugged me a little to say the least lol.

[John Everyman]

Oh, and just to add my piece to the "sealing the Dark One" choice...

 

... my main argument for killing the Dark One was that it would just doom the world to another cycle.  That said, I personally got the impression that, with using saidin, saidar and the TP all at once on his seal, that the seal became permanent.  I don't know if that was outright stated, but that was definitely the impression I was left with.

 

 

 

 

@dogf00d

Yeah I got that feel as well really.

 

As much as I don't mind the idea of him walking off into obscurity, it also bothers me with the implications.

 

Min, Aviendha and Elayne are just going to forget about it? I have a feeling Min will follow him as the other two are so duty bound. But what about his kids? Including the ones that he's supposed to have other than the twins? Or will Rand just pop up one day with God powers and decide to play daddy in secret or something? I dunno, it bugged me a little to say the least lol.

 

Yeah.  I imagine Rand will still interact somewhat with his old friends (Nynaeve and Moiraine aren't stupid, they'll notice Moridin has disappeared, and Rand speculated that they might follow him at different points), but I think he will stay out of the worlds affairs.  Perhaps irresponsible, especially if it turns out he's immortal, but he's earned at least some rest.

[John Everyman]

 

Yeah it was weird that Rand's seeming extra powers in ToM were then apparently reconned(using an item of power at Maradon, heartbeat trick to find DF's, Brandon quote about Rand powering up as of KoD) Its like they all of a sudden decided they didn't want the power up post TGS epiphany but wanted to save it for the end in AMoL.

 

 

I actually enjoyed that.  One thing that you see so many times throughout the book is that, with an "outsider perspective", characters look different than they do through their own POV's.  In Rand's case, I felt it worked well in conveying that Rand went through an incredible transformation, but it was kept mysterious.  Later, when we get inside his head, we find out that he's exceptional, but still only human.

 

Err, human in the WOT-ridiculously-powerful-channeler way.  As powerful as someone can be, but he has to follow the "rules" like everyone else. 

 

EDIT: Apologies for yet another double post, having problems with the board.

[Azrayne]

The dark one thing felt like a pretty big retcon. I always understood the creator as a deistic God, a hands off builder if you will. He made the pattern, including good, evil, free will, etc. within it, then left it to it's own devices. The dark one existed not as some personification of evil (although he certainly enhanced and abused those tendencies in men to further his goals) but as a destructive counterpart to the creator. The creator builds, the DO attempts to destroy. They were never portrayed as personifications of some kind of dualistic moral system. It felt to me like Sanderson just needed a reason to keep the DO alive, there wasn't, iirc, any insinuation prior to AMOL that the DO's presence was necessary for free will, nor that he had any effect on creation before the Bore.

 

Rand's final scene was a bit confusing as well. At first it seems like the body swap has taken place, with Rand's body dying, but then he says that Moridin burnt in his place, and it sounded like Cadsuane saw Rand's body get up and leave, not Moridin's. Then he still maintains his Fisher King-esque pattern bending powers, despite the insinuation just a few pages earlier that the trio are no longer Ta'Veren. Granted, I've stayed up pretty late to finish it, so maybe it'll make more sense if I read over it with a bit more clarity tomorrow morning.

[Sabio]

 

 

The overall message is that if Rand kills the Dark One he kills all evil in the world. Thereby removing the option to choose evil from everyones lives. This means that they lose their free will and are nothing but puppets.

But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves.

 

There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain.

 

Yet the Dark One does not.

 

Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle.

Yep.

 

I win again, Lews Therin.

But thats th point, it is suppose to happen again and agian.  Rand killing the DO and trying to remake the world as how he wants it would of been as bad as the DO remaking the world.  The pattern and the world need balance.  So yes in the futurethey will orget the DO existsm someone will bore into the DO's prision and things will start all over again. 

[Sabio]

The dark one thing felt like a pretty big retcon. I always understood the creator as a deistic God, a hands off builder if you will. He made the pattern, including good, evil, free will, etc. within it, then left it to it's own devices. The dark one existed not as some personification of evil (although he certainly enhanced and abused those tendencies in men to further his goals) but as a destructive counterpart to the creator. The creator builds, the DO attempts to destroy. They were never portrayed as personifications of some kind of dualistic moral system. It felt to me like Sanderson just needed a reason to keep the DO alive, there wasn't, iirc, any insinuation prior to AMOL that the DO's presence was necessary for free will, nor that he had any effect on creation before the Bore.

 

Rand's final scene was a bit confusing as well. At first it seems like the body swap has taken place, with Rand's body dying, but then he says that Moridin burnt in his place, and it sounded like Cadsuane saw Rand's body get up and leave, not Moridin's. Then he still maintains his Fisher King-esque pattern bending powers, despite the insinuation just a few pages earlier that the trio are no longer Ta'Veren. Granted, I've stayed up pretty late to finish it, so maybe it'll make more sense if I read over it with a bit more clarity tomorrow morning.

No she didn't see Rands body get up and leave, Casuadne says "those eyes confirmed her suspicions".  Rand was in the other body but she suspeeted something was up and seeing the other body sneak away confirmed it.  More then likely Min, Elayne, and Avi not seemingly being sad made casuadne suspicious that soemthing was going on.

[Guest tball]

If Rand can bend the pattern now to make his pipe light, perhaps he bent the pattern to make himself look like Moridin, and Moridin look like him.  Then, they burn Moridin's body so that everyone thinks Rand is dead and he gets to live anonymously.  Eh, probably not.  It makes sense for the bodies to have merged/switched given the whole balefire crossed streams thing that's been going on forever. 

 

I'm not too bothered by him traveling and the girls staying.  Who says he can't visit, or they can't Travel to see him now and then?  How many people still living could really identify Moridin?  Cadsuane isn't going to say anything.

[Wingendosering]

I'm having trouble grasping a lot of the end.

 

The biggest issue I have with this whole book (the only really big glaring issue to me) is Rand's portion of the epilogue.  I just can't believe that he can finally live in peace and decides to not tell Nynaeve, Tam, Mat, or Perrin and abandons his children and Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

Now, into what happened with the dark one itself.  I agree with the 'world without evil' being a horrible place.  Rand explains this by telling the Dark One that he never wins, because only the fight for something you believe in can bring out the best in people.  That implies that the best of everybody can't exist without the DO.  There would be nothing to fight for, nothing to challenge peace and make people treasure it.  So that makes sense to me.

 

What doesn't make sense is Rand's line about the Dark One never having been the issue, Alivia's role, the pipe and the finalization of the body swap.  Here are two theories from me, both somewhat crazy, I'll admit:

 

1.  Androl and Pevara gave us more insight than we'd think.  While they were linked, they entered each others' consciousness.  They became ONE PERSON.  Pevara's POV says she was able to pull back into her own body afterwards.  Is that what Rand and Moridin did, except Rand intentionally pulled back into Moridin's body instead?

 

2.  The DO exists outside the pattern and is a constant force for evil, but isn't necessarily bad.  He's like gravity, he's just contantly present.  The true source of upsetting balance is the Dragon Reborn himself.  LTT inspried many of the Forsaken.  He rejected Mieren, he was a source of fixation for Elan, Demandred seems to be completely unhinged by being 'nearly LTT'.  Sammael and Bel'al are both known to have been jealous of his power.  LTT's Aes Sedai were the ones who drilled into the Bore, craving more power.

 

We see a repeat of this in Rand.  Everywhere he goes, he breaks ties, causes war, incites jealousy, brings out both the best AND worst of the people around him.  In TGS he goes mad and nearly kills everybody atop Dragonmount, proving he could be either the destroyer or the savior.

 

This could explain why Rand wants the world to go on without the Dragon.  He WANTS the dragon to be dead in everybody's mind, because so long as he exists, the threat could come again.  The Dragon is the problem and always has been.

 

---------------------

 

Thoughts?  I know it sort of flies in the face of the good vs evil mantra this series seems to hold, but it did occur to me after putting the book down.

[Duskfire]

The biggest issue I have with this whole book (the only really big glaring issue to me) is Rand's portion of the epilogue.  I just can't believe that he can finally live in peace and decides to not tell either Nynaeve, Lan, Mat, or Perrin and abandons both his children and Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

Well, he hasnt told any of them by the end of the book. In my mind, if the book had hypothetically gone into the future a bit, I like to think Rand would have told some characters at some point. Maybe not straight out, but left a sign, a little wink to say, "hey, I am still around." That, or the girls would eventually say something.

 

Not sure on the father issue. Hard to be incognito when you are trying to raise a family. Its not like either of their kids would go wanting for education and attention and whatnot though, so maybe they could get by without their father.

[MarkDiLillo]

I think its evident that everyone who cares deeply about Rand will come to suspect that he turned out okay eventually.  Nynaeve suspects something, Cadsuane figured it out (despite this being a Brandon addition, I liked it), and the girls are not even attempting to act like they're grieving.  For all real purposes, Lan and Moiraine and some of the other characters aren't Rand's personal friends and his association with them is over now that he's played his role as the Dragon Reborn.

 

Tam is the only one left entirely in the dark, but I'd like to think that Rand will let him know first and foremost at some point in the future.  Mat and Perrin don't seem to care though which I felt was a little odd about the ending.

[Lonewolf-VII]

I guess it's ok to leave us guessing as to whist will come next. Will rand run into the old gang? Maybe. Would anyone mistake him for one of the forsaken? Possibly.

 

An epilogue book could be written similar to New Spring but it could ruin everything by being super boring. Unless there were a few encounters here and there. There's obviously bound to be some aftermath to all that carnage. But I think it should end here with a bit of mystery.

[Sabio]

I'm having trouble grasping a lot of the end.

 

The biggest issue I have with this whole book (the only really big glaring issue to me) is Rand's portion of the epilogue.  I just can't believe that he can finally live in peace and decides to not tell Nynaeve, Tam, Mat, or Perrin and abandons his children and Min, Elayne, and Aviendha.

 

Now, into what happened with the dark one itself.  I agree with the 'world without evil' being a horrible place.  Rand explains this by telling the Dark One that he never wins, because only the fight for something you believe in can bring out the best in people.  That implies that the best of everybody can't exist without the DO.  There would be nothing to fight for, nothing to challenge peace and make people treasure it.  So that makes sense to me.

 

What doesn't make sense is Rand's line about the Dark One never having been the issue, Alivia's role, the pipe and the finalization of the body swap.  Here are two theories from me, both somewhat crazy, I'll admit:

 

1.  Androl and Pevara gave us more insight than we'd think.  While they were linked, they entered each others' consciousness.  They became ONE PERSON.  Pevara's POV says she was able to pull back into her own body afterwards.  Is that what Rand and Moridin did, except Rand intentionally pulled back into Moridin's body instead?

 

2.  The DO exists outside the pattern and is a constant force for evil, but isn't necessarily bad.  He's like gravity, he's just contantly present.  The true source of upsetting balance is the Dragon Reborn himself.  LTT inspried many of the Forsaken.  He rejected Mieren, he was a source of fixation for Elan, Demandred seems to be completely unhinged by being 'nearly LTT'.  Sammael and Bel'al are both known to have been jealous of his power.  LTT's Aes Sedai were the ones who drilled into the Bore, craving more power.

 

We see a repeat of this in Rand.  Everywhere he goes, he breaks ties, causes war, incites jealousy, brings out both the best AND worst of the people around him.  In TGS he goes mad and nearly kills everybody atop Dragonmount, proving he could be either the destroyer or the savior.

 

This could explain why Rand wants the world to go on without the Dragon.  He WANTS the dragon to be dead in everybody's mind, because so long as he exists, the threat could come again.  The Dragon is the problem and always has been.

 

---------------------

 

Thoughts?  I know it sort of flies in the face of the good vs evil mantra this series seems to hold, but it did occur to me after putting the book down.

I like you theroies, I think maybe the dragon is reborn to set the pattern right when its needed.  My theory was if everyone htinks Rand is dead he can have some piece and quiet finally.  If they knew he was alive he wouldn't be able to go anywhere without people flocking around him etc....  As the worlds savior people would be wanting him to do all sort of things and I think you are right about where ever he goes trouble might follow.  The dragon would still be a target for any DF left out there and so would his ladies.  Now everyone can live is relative safety.   I think he just wants a nice peaceul quiet life.  I don't understand his casual view on wonder if any of the women will follow him.  Considering one is caring his children you would think he would have some concern.

[Guest Austin Newell]

Hello, long time lurker, first time poster here.

 

My feelings on Rand's attitude during the epilogue has to do with the final lesson he received from Tam. Rand was frustrated and weighed down from the loss of his hand. Losing it made Rand feel like he lost the ability to do one of the only things that ever brought him piece throughout the books, his sword fighting abilities. Tam's advice to Rand over this frustration was to "Let go." We see a reference to this during Rand's battle with the DO when he is on the verge of giving up.  This I feel was the final aspect that allowed Rand to finish his job. He let go. He let go of his regrets, his perceived failures, his burdens. He also let go of the sense of responsibility to everyone. His need to try and ensure that everyone did as they should and his need to protect everyone. Rand's leaving without letting anyone know is his way of relinquishing the world to the care of others. Letting himself trust in the decisions of others and their ability to lead the world to a better place. Rand knows that the people he leaves behind will be able to cope in his absence. This doesn't mean that he has abandoned them or that he doesn't care anymore, Rand just knows that they will be better off finding their own way instead of needing to rely on him.