Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[TristanWebb]

Even without the pattern bending, Rand is immortal now. He regained the memories of his past lives, so he is basically his TAR self living in the real world, he knows when he dies he will be spun out again. Rand living or dieing really has little effect if he wins, as any of the main characters can pretty much just visit him in TAR.

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

It just occurred to me that Rand is basically a living great library of lost knowledge.  It would be awesome if he used his free time to write an anonymous book detailing the methods that the Aes Sedia of the Age of Legends used to create wonders. He could describe the processes and use drawings to illustrate how to weave the threads.

[Suttree]

Even without the pattern bending, Rand is immortal now. He regained the memories of his past lives, so he is basically his TAR self living in the real world, he knows when he dies he will be spun out again. Rand living or dieing really has little effect if he wins, as any of the main characters can pretty much just visit him in TAR.

Rand only had LTTs memories aside from that brief moment on DM. Haven't done a reread on AMoL yet. Did that change at SG?

[SpankyMcJedi]

I see lots of postulating, and a few outright declarations, but let's face it.  We'll never know what exactly happened.  The method of the body swap is never spelled out, the impossible pipe is almost a throwaway line, and Alivia was the biggest red herring ever.  RJ goosed us all.  And I'm fine with that.

[nolirion]

 

Even without the pattern bending, Rand is immortal now. He regained the memories of his past lives, so he is basically his TAR self living in the real world, he knows when he dies he will be spun out again. Rand living or dieing really has little effect if he wins, as any of the main characters can pretty much just visit him in TAR.

Rand only had LTTs memories aside from that brief moment on DM. Haven't done a reread on AMoL yet. Did that change at SG?

As I understood is last Pov he don't even have those memory anymore .

[Guest Rocker480]

So, Rand can directly influence the pattern and does so to light his pipe. It is almost like the Real Pattern can be controlled by him in the same way others can control Tel'aran'rhiod. Here is my question...why doesn't he make it so he can channel again? Or is he really happy with being unable to channel for the rest of his life? I don't think he needs to channel again, if he has (arguably) Tel'aran'rhiod control over the real world. As Perrin would nonchalantly say: meh,"it's only a weave."

simple why would he want to or need to? If he can get what he wants just by willing it. Channelling only let other channeller sense him.

[Kahsm]

He was happy about not being able to channel even before he did the thing with his pipe. I suppose it's supposed to be because the OP to him represents all the shit he had to go through and deal with and so it's finally, officially over. Which I'm not sure I buy given how the loss of the OP is supposed to drive most men to suicide... Even for those who were hunted by Aes Sedai for a long time and hated that they could channel, I think we're lead to believe they still were depressed at the loss... so I'm skeptical of if that was the proper reaction...

 

I also think having one pipe light for a guy then jumping to "He can manipulate the world like Neo in the matrix" might be a bit of a logical stretch...  For example, at first I wondered if it was just a "wink" from the creator (or the wheel if you want to pull "the creator does not get involved"). Like when someone holds out a light for a guy who put a cig in his mouth and is patting his pockets for a lighter.

[Jascob]

As Rand rides off at the end, he wonders who, of his three loves, will follow him.  This attitude bothered me because: 

 

1.  Elayne has a kingdom to rebuild and Rand's children to raise...without him, apparently.  Not likely to be in a traveling mood.  

 

2.  Aviendha has no feet.  Makes it hard to travel.  Maybe Rand could of helped her out with that before leaving?  I suppose she could hobble after him when she recovers.  

 

3.  Min is Doomseer to the Crystal Throne, as far as Tuon is concerned, and her running off will probably have consequences.  Plus, it would negate Mat's argument that having her next to Tuon would help smooth relations with Seanchan.  

 

I get that riding off into the sunset is a nice ending, but leaving these three behind, much less expecting any one of them to follow him, seems absurd.  

[Vambram]

Does Rand know about Min's fate, and does the ending of the book even reveal whether or not Min will be remaining with Mat and Tuon?

 

As for Aviendha, I am betting that she will be able to be fully Healed, probably by someone as skilled as Nyneave or Sumeko. 

[Guest Frédéric Fivet]

 

The overall message is that if Rand kills the Dark One he kills all evil in the world. Thereby removing the option to choose evil from everyones lives. This means that they lose their free will and are nothing but puppets.

But the Dark One is no longer touching the Pattern. The Wheel still spins, the Pattern still weaves.

 

There is both good and evil in their world. Free will and choice remain.

 

Yet the Dark One does not.

 

Rand's just doomed the world to another cycle and another battle.

Indeed man... That' s how it was before Mierin discover with other Aes Sedai the Dark One's prison...

[jack of shadows]

@xxx47

"rj lifted this straight from eastern mythology".

can you be more specific? is it chinese mythology?(time to broaden my horizon beyond

the wheel of time saga).

back to rand's,i don't want him to play an important role in the fourth age,he's done enough,

but he can help.

one ot the biggest dangers after a great war is famine and starvation,using "the voice",rand

can help with "the growings".

at the funeral pyre,tam asked the same question i'm asking now:"is this your gift to us,son?

he wondered.a final one?"

will rand walk away from his land after such a devastating aftermath without contributing even

a little?

but most of all,i wish him many years of happiness with his three lovers,he earned it.

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

As Rand rides off at the end, he wonders who, of his three loves, will follow him.  This attitude bothered me because: 

 

1.  Elayne has a kingdom to rebuild and Rand's children to raise...without him, apparently.  Not likely to be in a traveling mood.  

 

2.  Aviendha has no feet.  Makes it hard to travel.  Maybe Rand could of helped her out with that before leaving?  I suppose she could hobble after him when she recovers.  

 

3.  Min is Doomseer to the Crystal Throne, as far as Tuon is concerned, and her running off will probably have consequences.  Plus, it would negate Mat's argument that having her next to Tuon would help smooth relations with Seanchan.  

 

I get that riding off into the sunset is a nice ending, but leaving these three behind, much less expecting any one of them to follow him, seems absurd.  

 

It's funny when people imply that Rand is selfish or something like a "dead-beat dad." He just stepped in for the Creator and saved the world from a primordial evil that is as vast and timeless as the universe. Rand deserves some time off. His kids will be just fine. Anyway, Traveling makes long-distance relationships as convenient as cohabitation.

[Jascob]

 

As Rand rides off at the end, he wonders who, of his three loves, will follow him.  This attitude bothered me because: 

 

1.  Elayne has a kingdom to rebuild and Rand's children to raise...without him, apparently.  Not likely to be in a traveling mood.  

 

2.  Aviendha has no feet.  Makes it hard to travel.  Maybe Rand could of helped her out with that before leaving?  I suppose she could hobble after him when she recovers.  

 

3.  Min is Doomseer to the Crystal Throne, as far as Tuon is concerned, and her running off will probably have consequences.  Plus, it would negate Mat's argument that having her next to Tuon would help smooth relations with Seanchan.  

 

I get that riding off into the sunset is a nice ending, but leaving these three behind, much less expecting any one of them to follow him, seems absurd.  

 

It's funny when people imply that Rand is selfish or something like a "dead-beat dad." He just stepped in for the Creator and saved the world from a primordial evil that is as vast and timeless as the universe. Rand deserves some time off. His kids will be just fine. Anyway, Traveling makes long-distance relationships as convenient as cohabitation.

So, I misread the part where Rand wonders which one will "follow" him?  I must have also missed the part that suggests he is just taking a short vacation and plans to return; would you give page cites to support your theory, please?  

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

 

 

As Rand rides off at the end, he wonders who, of his three loves, will follow him.  This attitude bothered me because: 

 

1.  Elayne has a kingdom to rebuild and Rand's children to raise...without him, apparently.  Not likely to be in a traveling mood.  

 

2.  Aviendha has no feet.  Makes it hard to travel.  Maybe Rand could of helped her out with that before leaving?  I suppose she could hobble after him when she recovers.  

 

3.  Min is Doomseer to the Crystal Throne, as far as Tuon is concerned, and her running off will probably have consequences.  Plus, it would negate Mat's argument that having her next to Tuon would help smooth relations with Seanchan.  

 

I get that riding off into the sunset is a nice ending, but leaving these three behind, much less expecting any one of them to follow him, seems absurd.  

 

It's funny when people imply that Rand is selfish or something like a "dead-beat dad." He just stepped in for the Creator and saved the world from a primordial evil that is as vast and timeless as the universe. Rand deserves some time off. His kids will be just fine. Anyway, Traveling makes long-distance relationships as convenient as cohabitation.

So, I misread the part where Rand wonders which one will "follow" him?  I must have also missed the part that suggests he is just taking a short vacation and plans to return; would you give page cites to support your theory, please?  

 

I didn't mention a short vacation. He could take some time off for the next 40 years if he likes. He may very well have to fight the Last Battle again and again and again in future lives without end. His fate is to be something like a Norse hero in Asgard. They fight to the death every day and are resurrected every night to feast before going to battle again. Apparently, Rand's soul is always the one reborn to save the world even though he's just an ordinary person (with super power), not the incarnation of the Creator. I would argue that no one in Rand's world has any grounds whatsoever to call him selfish--when it is Rand's soul alone that bears the weight of the world. That's opinion, so no citations are necessary. 

 

But to your original question, Min would be the natural one to follow him if that means running away from everything. 

[Entreri]

Everyone, including the Forsaken and Shai'tan can thank their very existence to the Dragon Reborn.   WoT is an interesting prison.

[XXX]

@xxx47

"rj lifted this straight from eastern mythology".

can you be more specific? is it chinese mythology?(time to broaden my horizon beyond

the wheel of time saga).

back to rand's,i don't want him to play an important role in the fourth age,he's done enough,

but he can help.

one ot the biggest dangers after a great war is famine and starvation,using "the voice",rand

can help with "the growings".

at the funeral pyre,tam asked the same question i'm asking now:"is this your gift to us,son?

he wondered.a final one?"

will rand walk away from his land after such a devastating aftermath without contributing even

a little?

but most of all,i wish him many years of happiness with his three lovers,he earned it.

 

Buddhist and Hindu mythology. 

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

It just occurred to me that Rand is basically a living great library of lost knowledge.  It would be awesome if he used his free time to write an anonymous book detailing the methods that the Aes Sedia of the Age of Legends used to create wonders. He could describe the processes and use drawings to illustrate how to weave the threads.

I think that would be too much outside interference, as that would GREATLY change people's lives everywhere, possibly even expedite a new AoL. And then the cycle would go on again, pattern needs to balance out good with bad, yadda yadda, we all know where that goes

[mike hunt's here]

What does Rand need gold for?  His new superpowers should do the trick.

 

If not - he looks like Moridin and can tell DFs to serve him while the Great Lord rests for a comeback.

[Alia]

Did anyone else get that funny feeling about "What if" when Rand lit his pipe? Like, the resemblance to Tel'aran'rhiod is obvious. Did anyone else get that weird feeling of "I wonder if this really happened? I wonder if Rand isnt asleep... or still in Tel'aran'rhiod?" Because thats honestly where my mind went...

[lilltempest]

 

@Entreri

 

Sorry to clarify by most I meant the posters that spend considerable time writing in depth theories. Dom, Davian 93, Terez etc. Now that doesn't make them correct, but it certainly shows you havent been proven right about anything(in fact I should we talk about who was right about the nature of the wheel and "last battle", or how about Rand needing Egwene despite your claims to the contrary ;). Especially when your point is contradicted by facts in AMol. Should be interesting to ask Brandon about.

 

 

Rand needed Egwene as much as Mat, Perrin, Lan, Oliver...Nature of the Wheel?

 

Trying to pivot?

 

Let's wait for more answers from Brandon and other stuff that is released.

 

And have you noticed the Egghead worshipers stress how Rand needs Egwene (more than anything, apparently, since they see her as the end-all-be-all in the WoT universe) yet ignore the fact that she needed him even more than he needed her? Hell, the Aes Sedai in LoC said it best (from chapter 49):

 

Merana trembled, the folded letter crumpling in her

fist. “Don’t you see?” she shouted. “You talk as if we can go

on as before, as if nothing has changed. There is an embassy from

Elaida in Cairhien, from the White Tower. That is how al’Thor

must see it. We need him more than he needs us, and I fear he knows

it!”

 

 

For a moment, shock covered every face save

Verin’s. Verin only nodded thoughtfully, smiling a small,

secretive smile. For a moment, every other face was full of wide

eyes, stunned. Those words seemed to ring in the air. We need

him more than he needs us. They did not need the Three Oaths

to know it for truth.

 

I envy your patience trying to argue with some people, but it really is pointless. Best to state your opinion and move on, because some refuse to move an inch or admit someone else may have a valid opinion if it disagrees with the "popular" consensus. Reminds me a great deal of high school, really...

[lilltempest]

 

As Rand rides off at the end, he wonders who, of his three loves, will follow him.  This attitude bothered me because: 

 

1.  Elayne has a kingdom to rebuild and Rand's children to raise...without him, apparently.  Not likely to be in a traveling mood.  

 

2.  Aviendha has no feet.  Makes it hard to travel.  Maybe Rand could of helped her out with that before leaving?  I suppose she could hobble after him when she recovers.  

 

3.  Min is Doomseer to the Crystal Throne, as far as Tuon is concerned, and her running off will probably have consequences.  Plus, it would negate Mat's argument that having her next to Tuon would help smooth relations with Seanchan.  

 

I get that riding off into the sunset is a nice ending, but leaving these three behind, much less expecting any one of them to follow him, seems absurd.  

 

It's funny when people imply that Rand is selfish or something like a "dead-beat dad." He just stepped in for the Creator and saved the world from a primordial evil that is as vast and timeless as the universe. Rand deserves some time off. His kids will be just fine. Anyway, Traveling makes long-distance relationships as convenient as cohabitation.

 

And let's be honest, here...the only one of the three who honestly wanted Rand around for anything other than a roll in the hay was Min, and now she has her own thing going on and doesn't "need a man". Elayne never had the decency to tell him she was pregnant and led the world to believe, right up until TG, that she had been knocked up by a nasty rapist DF. She doesn't want him around, he doesn't need the abuse she'd dole out, so it's best he stay away until she gets horny again and decides to go see him. Her twins (his children) will be raised in a way he probably won't agree with (the boy has to be a mindless, spineless lapdog slave to the girl, just like Gawyn was raised to be to Elayne) and he would not be allowed any say in the matter at all since he would never be treated as Elayne's equal and, instead, would have to accept being her mindless lapdog with no say so in his children's raising. After saving the world, I think he deserves better.

 

Besides, we've been beaten over the head with the fact that the females run the show for the children and the men are little more than sperm donors unless the mother doesn't survive (sad to say, it's probably a good thing Kari wasn't around and Tam raised Rand himself). Especially when dealing with the queen of Andor, who has no use for a man unless he's properly beaten down and submissive. Rand has no place with Elayne at all, and, really, no place with Aviendha either. Min was his only shot at a "normal" relationship and family life and that went to the sewer once Tuon recruited her as Doomsayer. I don't see how Rand can be blamed for any of this, or faulted for wanting a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

[lilltempest]

Why Rand was thinking that he doesn't intend to stay alive after SG yet he had made preparations for his false death?

 

This is, quite honestly, something that I credit Cadsuane with. When the two of them spoke, she basically told him that he should make plans in case he lived and to stop being so certain he was not going to make it out alive. I think that, despite him still not liking her (for good reason, though I'd like to have seen her apologize to him and him do the same back to her for the way they treated each other), he valued her advice and took it to heart. Even people you dislike may have valuable advice. At that point, Rand was wise enough to realize that truth and see that Cadsuane was right, no matter what transpired between them before.

[Alia]

@ liltempest

 

Wow. Did you read the sections in this book where he and Elayne ate together? And where she defends him to Egwene? At all? How about Avis POV in the books before where her feelings are abundantly plain for all to see? Im sorry but that entire thing was offensive. In this last book especially Id say that men and women were equal in everything....

[Alia]

Besides, Elayne may change how things are- certainly Gawayn did when he left her side. And not once did she yell at him for that. For that matter, Morgause prized her lovers FOR standing up to her. As Elayne did to Rand. As for Avi, honestly I feel sorry for her. Due to her own duty and honor she got ONE night with the man that she loved. One. Ok tech two but the one she refuses to think about.  And from that one night she has to worry about any children she might have ruining her people. Honestly, Im not suprised that they are covering for Rand- they are sheilding him from all the nonsense that would happen if anyone discovered he lived. Besides, Elayne and Avi especially will probably live for at least 3 centuries barring death from another means. Its possible that they did go to him in the end- surely they werent around during the viewings Avi had of the next generation or two.

[lilltempest]

I am interested to hear your thoughts on Rand's new powers and when they started.

 

And, since you actually requested my opinion on something, I'll give it...

 

I believe his new powers began after his epiphany on Dragonmount, but I don't think he realized it because he was still locked into the same mindset all channelers have, which is that channeling is the only tool that matters (it's what would've gotten Egwene killed in ToM had Perrin not given her a lesson in the realities of TAR). That said, I believe it's possible that his powers had always been there to some extent or another (perhaps those abilities are part of the Dragon soul, but are latent until he accepts them/realizes them). The time he spent with the DO outside the Pattern, creating test realities as one would in TAR, might have been the spark he needed to start using his abilities in the real world.

 

Furthermore, I believe that the "tricks"/"miracles" in ToM, after his epiphany, were a mixture of tricks (like him using the Voice to cause life to grow in front of Tuon, which wasn't really a trick but made him appear as powerful as the Creator  himself to Tuon, who wouldn't have known Rand could use the One Power to do such a thing) and him actually being able to see/use the Pattern in a new way (DFs not being able to look him in the eye and jumping out of windows because they couldn't handle his 'light'). In ToM, I was torn between thinking it was merely him being able to manipulate his ta'veren nature (for example, Egwene recognizing that they couldn't force him to stay in the WT, and that a circle of 13 couldn't hold him) and believing him to have, if not Jesus like powers, something close.

 

After reading the end of the aMoL, I see it more as an aspect of the Dragon soul - I don't think another soul could withstand being yanked out of the Pattern with the DO, nor would any other soul be able to create test realities as Rand did. Once he thought he was no longer able to channel, he used those same abilities to light his pipe. I do wonder if he's channeling without realizing it, though, just as his children with Aviendha are able to do when she goes through the test to become a Wise One. They had to get that ability to channel without embracing/grasping the True Source somewhere, and they did not get it from Aviendha.

 

All of that said, it certainly does make Cadsuane correct about Rand having to learn laughter and tears before he went to battle the Dark One, and not just because he might have succumbed to the idea that the world was better off completely destroyed (or without the DO, so people would be mindless automatons). The thought of having a manic depressive Rand, with anger management issues and unable to trust anyone around him (while refusing to allow himself to feel love for fear of being hurt), able to do what a channeler can do (even when burned out), is a scary thought, indeed. Cadsuane still went about it wrong, and was a jerk, but her end goal was correct, especially considering Rand's "new" powers.