Rand's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[muddasssir]

 

@mitsobar.

the possibility of a body swap between rand and moridin was hinted many times

throughout the wheel of time series via foretelling,dreams and prophecies,so no,

i don't believe it was a cop out.

let me quote one of egwene's dreams as far back as a crown of swords:

the dying man dream,

"a man lay dying in a narrow bed,and it was important he not die,yet outside a

funeral pyre was being built,and voices raised songs of joy and sadness"....

 

Fair enough on that then.   I did not do a full re-read before picking up aMoL so there are countless small things I do not remember from before that may relate to now.

 

Personally I would of preferred if he had not survived.

there was a scene in ToM where Tam says something like that wheel cannot be that cruel to not give him peace after all the sacrifices. Of course I am paraphrasing, but there was something to that effect

[Rhienne]

 

You read it wrong, she asked if she was getting one and he said he was only giving them to people he cares about. It is a sick burn.

No, you didn't capture the tone right. The way you say it is 'yeah, I ONLY give it to people I care about' when he said 'I'll give gifts to those I care about' in a way that seems like he could give one to cads.

 

 

I definitely read it that he wasn't giving one to Cads.

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

Now that Rand can supposedly manipulate the pattern, does that mean that he could possibly manipulate threads of the pattern? Bring back people from the dead? Create new threads? Erase time? Weave the pattern to his own will?

[Viperswhip]

 

 

You read it wrong, she asked if she was getting one and he said he was only giving them to people he cares about. It is a sick burn.

No, you didn't capture the tone right. The way you say it is 'yeah, I ONLY give it to people I care about' when he said 'I'll give gifts to those I care about' in a way that seems like he could give one to cads.

 

 

I definitely read it that he wasn't giving one to Cads.

It was written in such a way to let those of us who dislike her read it the way we want, and for the people that like her to read it in a more positive fashion. It was a perfect piece of writing for such a divisive character.

[oddbit]

At the end of the book Rand isn't mortal anymore.  He has evolved beyond life and death.  He actually developed the ability to step outside creation, outside of reality.  He can weave with the basic elements of creation itself.

 

He is not the Avatar of the Creator anymore than he is the Avatar of the Dark One.  He is the force in-between.  He is the Galactus of Randland.  

 

He didn't die at the end of AMOL because he couldn't.  The world was broken.  Society is on the verge of total colapse.  Shara just lost its ruler and most of its ruling class.  Seanchan is in chaos, the empress is dead, the land is fractured by civil war.  Randland is in chaos, Caemlyn, the center of civilization is completely destroyed. Most of the people are starving.  Even after the breaking, and the dreadlords were put down, society still reverted from a golden age greater than we can dream of in our world, to something akin to the dark ages of Europe.  How much further would it fall after Tarmon Gai'don?

 

The Dragon will stay in the world until he can repair the damage and set the world on a course to recovery.  Eventually, he will leave and sleep until he is needed again.  Then, when the world is in a Golden Age, and people are evolving beyond the understanding of evil, he will return and inspire men to open a bore, as LTT the destroyer, and the cycle will begin anew, until Rand comes back to repair the world.

 

The purpose of the Dragon is to maintain the balance.  RJ obviously believed in balance more than anything, the symbol of his world is the yin and yang after all.  As for the arguments Rand should have killed the DO, ok, fine I'll consider that after you tell me how to make a coin with only one side.  Our brains are hardwired to define everything by its opposite.  Life vs. death, matter vs. space, here vs. gone, pain vs. joy, and yes, good vs. evil.  I don't think we're capable of comprehending one without the other.  That was the point of the story, we define  our selves by our choosing between good and evil.

 

The DO never wanted to kill Rand, it would serve no purpose.  In fact, he went to great lengths to keep Rand alive, even going so far as to kill (as Shaidar Haran), some of the Forsaken that put him in too much danger.  Rand was the Avatar of the Dragon. The DO can't kill the Dragon, because the Dragon is stronger than the DO.  He has to be, he is the mechanism the Creator made to put the DO back into his prison, and restore the balance. The DO can only win by corrupting him, by convincing the Dragon to break the wheel, something even the DO can't do.

I like this perspective. As the "dragon" in reference of biblical text almost always is in reference to Lucifer or Satan and yet the Dragon is also a Jesus figure in WoT. In reference to your statement about  him inspiring the bore.. I think it was more indirect than that through his relationship with Lanfear and his complacency, pride, and arrogance. Arrogance that he could seal up that bore without sufficient help leading to the breaking. And then later as Rand thinking that he could just remove free will. Make people do what is right. Make them be good. Remove any temptation. Kill the DO.

 

 

 

In regard to killing the DO (as many seem to wish Rand had), many have said it but we need balance and the DO affects the pattern to create adversity, an option for choice of good or ill and for ill to occur so we can understand what good is.

 

It is clear that we need adversity in life to appreciate lack of it and the good. There is much today that is good that we take for granted because we don't see a lot of adversity or lack of these good things. Like methods of transportation, heating and cooling and insulated homes, food that we don't have to pick or hunt ourselves, bread we don't have to bake, water that just pours from a tap. How often do you marvel at these wonders? For they are pretty amazing. What if one of them was suddenly gone and now you had to do the work for it? How much more would you then appreciate the work that went into it whether it was yours or not? That adversity brought about appreciation but without that realization we can become complacent even develop a sense of entitlement. That we deserve it because it always has been there for us.  

 

Now imagine if there was the One Power that could do even better! And had tools that stored the OP for those whom can't channel can use! The AoL was a Golden Age but also must have been rather depressing and frivolous for some. If everything is handed to you and all is created what work is there to do? Where do you get the satisfaction of a job well done? What is there to keep us all from becoming spoiled little children that think they deserve all this splendor? We know that in our day today, suicide and depression are on the rise and much of that is because people don't feel needed, important, wanted, or that they make a difference. I can only imagine what it was like for those in the AoL. It could be horrible. 

 

So even in a time of a "Golden Age", a time when good is on the rise more than ill, we need some adversity to humble us, to bring us back to roots, to remind us where things come from, the labor required, the efforts, and talents, and materials given and sacrificed, the importance of one another and how strong and frail we can be. This is what balance is. It is knowing the good because we have seen the bad. Fear is only a memory of pain but it is good to remember because it is from it that we grow. Balance is a wonderful thing and thankfully Rand learned that.

[1qq]

 

 

 

You read it wrong, she asked if she was getting one and he said he was only giving them to people he cares about. It is a sick burn.

No, you didn't capture the tone right. The way you say it is 'yeah, I ONLY give it to people I care about' when he said 'I'll give gifts to those I care about' in a way that seems like he could give one to cads.

 

 

I definitely read it that he wasn't giving one to Cads.

It was written in such a way to let those of us who dislike her read it the way we want, and for the people that like her to read it in a more positive fashion. It was a perfect piece of writing for such a divisive character.

Yes, it could be taken either way.

[jack of shadows]

@muddasssir.

"there was a scene in tom where tam says something like that:

the wheel cannot be that ruel to not give him peace after all the sacrifices..."

 

can you tell where in tom? i just don't remember tam saying something like that,

or something to that effect.

[TristanWebb]

It is at the meeting between Rand and Tam just before he runs off to do VoG. It is just a theory that Tam has, but knowing BS it was pretty blunt foreshadowing.

 

EDIT: This is not correct, went looking for the quote. Will check some other places.

 

I can't find it, but I am sure it is there somewhere, can't remember the exact quote though so it is hard.

 

Double Edit: turns out is was correct after all, see below.

[jack of shadows]

@benevolentcow,

thank you,you pointed me in the right direction,

this quote is indeed from the gathering storm,not towers of midnight:

"rand,i think you can survive this.

i can't imagine that the pattern won't give you some peace,considering the

service you're doing for us all"

[jack of shadows]

i just finished rereading the poweful scene between rand and mierin in the

dreamshard and noticed something crucial:

all the forsaken were lews therin contemporaries,and he knew(probably)

most of them personally for hundreds of years.

for them,the dragon reborn was lews therin in a different body,and rand al thor

was never a factor(not a big one anyway).

but the truth is very different,"the truth that,down deep,it was not lews therin

who made rand's core,it was the sheepherder,raised by tam"

rand al thor was always rand al thor with lews therin memories nothing more,

unfortunately for them,the forsaken and especially lanfear,never really understood this.

well,it took me awhile to understand this myself....lol.

[sicofthis]

Just finished the Book today and Ive only read the first few pages of this thread.

 

Here are some of my interpretations

 

1) Rand could see the whole pattern and knew that his vision without the dark one was true. You cannot have good without evil, light without darkness, energy without the void.

 

2) Rand entered the void where he could spin the potential threads by touching the darkness. He was able to leave (re-enter the pattern) by his will. His understanding gave him control.

 

3) He held the darkone trapped, he understood the dark one and his power. Rand and the dark one seemed to have the similar abilities within the void. By understanding the dark one swaping his soul into another body as the dark one could with a fallen chosen was a simple matter.

 

4) I believe Rand wanted to not be able to channel, So when swapping bodies he willed the pattern to make it as if he never could.

 

5) Rand has an understanding of the pattern now and can directly control it.

 

[jack of shadows]

@sicofthis,

"rand has an understanding of the pattern now,and can directly control it".

so,is he immortal now?

can he bend the pattern to his will and live forever?

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

@sicofthis,

"rand has an understanding of the pattern now,and can directly control it".

so,is he immortal now?

can he bend the pattern to his will and live forever?

according to theories floating around, and if he wished to do so, then yes.

[Guest rzr0241]

I just finished AMOL and have been taking it all in.  I started reading the series in the mid 90's so some of it is blury, but on pg 872 when Moridin chose to stab his own hand instead of throwing the knife at Rand or somebody else why did that cause Rand to drop Callandor? what was the link between them I cant recall.

[Suttree]

I just finished AMOL and have been taking it all in.  I started reading the series in the mid 90's so some of it is blury, but on pg 872 when Moridin chose to stab his own hand instead of throwing the knife at Rand or somebody else why did that cause Rand to drop Callandor? what was the link between them I cant recall.

The link between the two was established in Shadar Logoth when they crossed streams of balefire. Since then we are shown many times when they mirror each others thoughts and pain.

[sicofthis]

@sicofthis,

"rand has an understanding of the pattern now,and can directly control it".

so,is he immortal now?

can he bend the pattern to his will and live forever?

 

Perhaps

He was always strongly affecting the pattern. Near the end the cloulds parted for him and he could prevent this if he liked. Maybe he just learned a finer control over his effects. In the last two books alot of things he was capable of seemed like the world of dreams abilities.

 

Edit: The book is about balance. The true power (the darkones power) should have an opposite, "creators power"? Who knows maybe thats what made things live around rand to balance the darkness on the world. It may not need to be drawn upon to be used.

[Kahsm]

Things grew around him cause he has "the voice" and was singing. Mat hears it when Rand faced Tuon. No reason to believe that when Rand came down from VOG and made the apple trees blossom it was some other mechanism when he could have just been singing then too. It's another trick like the DF radar. Use what you got to make it look like you're even more special.

Now he sang quite a bit with Thom, so I assume while there's no "the song", there must be a special way to invoke "the voice". So his VOG revelations reminded him he could do that.

 

Rand is far more "pedestrian" than he puts himself forward as, it was part of what made him awesome... showmanship.  For example, Rand at Tarwin's Gap specifically talks about nudging the storm along because it's easier to direct lightning than pull it from nowhere. Basically what I said in my Maradon Analysis. Just gotta learn to do things efficiently.

 

I still don't get why the dude tore his eyes out at Maradon though, clearly not the heartbeat trick. Feel free to explain that to me.

[Whatagoon]

With the Horn being sounded at Shayol Ghul, TAR and reality became one. In fact, even before it was sounded from Perrin's perspective we see Rand/Moridin/Nynaeve/Moiraine in TAR and reality from Thom's view confirming the thinness of the Pattern there.

I don't recall reading/knowing this, that when the horn is sounded TAR and reality become one. Where is this stated? Just curious if it is assumption or fact.

 

I actually read a theory that the bore is in TAR. This makes sense to me so far. If there is a dark one in every world, affecting every world, if Rand's battle affects other worlds, Lanfear being adept at TAR and the one who first drilled into the bore, Perrin being able to see / talk to Rand & girls at Shayol Ghul when he is in TAR, and so on as stated in the theory (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=95&theo=2852#30114).

 

So if the bore and battle were in TAR then could Rand's new powers of lighting his pipe by affecting reality be an after effect of this or a newly learned trait? In TAR you make something real by belief, just as he lit his pipe by believing it was.

 

Did Alivia simply help Rand die by setting up his new life with clothes, horse, money, escape? Or did she preform a weave to transplant minds? My first impression was that she performed a weave but was not directly stated so opinions abound! :) Still doing catch up on all the pages so forgiveness is previously answered.

[wRAR]

 

With the Horn being sounded at Shayol Ghul, TAR and reality became one. In fact, even before it was sounded from Perrin's perspective we see Rand/Moridin/Nynaeve/Moiraine in TAR and reality from Thom's view confirming the thinness of the Pattern there.

I don't recall reading/knowing this, that when the horn is sounded TAR and reality become one. Where is this stated? Just curious if it is assumption or fact.

 

I actually read a theory that the bore is in TAR. This makes sense to me so far. If there is a dark one in every world, affecting every world, if Rand's battle affects other worlds, Lanfear being adept at TAR and the one who first drilled into the bore, Perrin being able to see / talk to Rand & girls at Shayol Ghul when he is in TAR, and so on as stated in the theory (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=95&theo=2852#30114).

 

So if the bore and battle were in TAR then could Rand's new powers of lighting his pipe by affecting reality be an after effect of this or a newly learned trait? In TAR you make something real by belief, just as he lit his pipe by believing it was.

 

Did Alivia simply help Rand die by setting up his new life with clothes, horse, money, escape? Or did she preform a weave to transplant minds? My first impression was that she performed a weave but was not directly stated so opinions abound! :) Still doing catch up on all the pages so forgiveness is previously answered.

We don't have any evidence that Alivia did anything beyond providing items for Rand.

[jack of shadows]

@the_underage_asha'man,

"according to theories floating around and if he wishes do do so,then yes"

of course he wishes to do so!! come on,we are talking about hundreds and hundreds

of years with three super hot girls lol.

i am absolutly sure that eventually the four of them will find a way to be together.

despite enduring so many hardships,so much heartache,rand still came through.

i wish him only eternity of happiness.

[OneWhoMustBeLeashed]

@ Rand's pipe lighting power

 

Maybe Rand doesn't actually have the power to mold the Pattern anymore. Maybe the effect is better understood as the Creator rewarding Rand for saving the Pattern by granting Rand's wishes. That explantion would get around the difficulty of explaining how a person who cannot channel can access the Creator's power -- when we know only channelers have access to the DO's True Power.

 

Or, maybe Rand still has the power to mold the Pattern, and being burned out or whatever is no obstacle.

[The_Underage_Asha'man]

@the_underage_asha'man,

"according to theories floating around and if he wishes do do so,then yes"

of course he wishes to do so!! come on,we are talking about hundreds and hundreds

of years with three super hot girls lol.

i am absolutly sure that eventually the four of them will find a way to be together.

despite enduring so many hardships,so much heartache,rand still came through.

i wish him only eternity of happiness.

well his happiness depends on his ability to make avi/elayne/min live forever because without his lovers, I think he would not find a lot of happiness. That being said, also take into consideration that if he lived forever, then he would still be living the next time the third age rolled around, which would mess up the pattern because he is still the dragon.

[Radhiën]

I agree with the premise that the world without the dark one would be akin to a world without light.  At the end where we see Rand resealing the Bore, he uses all three powers, the two sides of the One Power as well as the True power, the dark one's own essence, not to patch the hole, but to rebuild the pattern and eliminate the bore.  Thus, as the dark one's essence is a part of the pattern, the absence of the dark one would upset the balance of existence.

[jack of shadows]

@the_underage_asha'man,

you are absolutely right.

moiraine said something that got me thinking:"rand al'thor,such an odd mixture

of self-effacement and pride.did he finally have the balance right?"

judging from the last battle's events,my answer is yes,he did.

this odd mixture of humbleness,pride and above all self control,would not allow

rand to abuse his new powers and abilities.

[XXX]

Rand will not be able to abuse his new powers or abilities. nor will he want to.And he will not play an important role of infact any role in the fourth age.The pattern does not wish it. His role is over.He was a person of the third age now he just spends the rest of his life like an ordinary man.

 

RJ lifted this straight from Eastern mythology.