Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[BFG]

 

On the subject of Alanna, if removing the bond is so simple (and the cavalier way Eqwene uses and removes her bond with the seanchan woman who's name escapes me makes it seem so) why did she wait so long to remove the bond with Rand?

 

She didn't want to.

 

It's also possible that the other person needs to be present for the bond to be 'ended' safely. 

 

Leilwin is present when Eg releases the bond, as is Rand when Alanna releases the bond.  This is different to when Lan's bond is passed around, because they're just passing the AS end of the bond (and Moiraines reason for doing this is to stop Lan from committing suicide in the Waste, which would be his choice if freed from the bond entirely), not dissolving it from his end.  (We see from Elayne bonding Birgette that the weave is something placed on the warders mind, with some sort of connection between them), it doesn't have to be a complicated procedure, it just needs them both present.   

[Pilz]

Or, she was BA and could only break her oath in the hour of her death.  That is speculation that Verin's letter gave her that advice. 

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

Or, she was BA and could only break her oath in the hour of her death.  That is speculation that Verin's letter gave her that advice. 

 

Great point. Thanks!

[BFG]

 

Or, she was BA and could only break her oath in the hour of her death.  That is speculation that Verin's letter gave her that advice. 

 

Great point. Thanks!

 

Yup, like this idea

[Edsel]

Okay, first off let me say that I loved the book.  I loved the fast pace, the frenetic and shifting POV's, and the lameness with which many people died.  It all rang true of a great, vast Last Battle.  So these are just random frustrations, not book bashings....but I was definitely perturbed by a few things that weren't included.  

 

For one, I'm thinking of Nynaeve and Moiraine.  I know they were their roles as "Powerade" for Rand were logical... but it left them without much else to do.  I appreciate Moiraine's role in facilitating Rand's Peace, the Seal breaking, and the Marshalling of the armies so he could move on to his real purpose... and I enjoyed the fun "tea" exchange"... but after having her gone so long... I just wanted more.  By the same token, I appreciated Nynaeve's healing of Talmanes.... showing once again just how powerful she is... and her herbal remedies with Alanna... and her not being stupid enough to miss that something is going on with the Bond Girls not "crying over their Bier"... but I missed a showdown with Moggy...  I mean Moggy's end was a weak imitation of Elaida's, even with the full circle of the leash coming back to her.  I just love Nynaeve, and wanted more.

 

Another disappointment was the handling of Verin's letters.  I mean really, it's suddenly so important for me to know that there are male pillow friends in Book 14 of a series (the final book) that I need to be told twice!?! ...I couldn't be trusted to figure that out??  But I don't get to have even hints of Verin's contingencies????  I think the former, not the latter, was better fodder for fan speculation.  One is world building and should have been handled earlier in the series...the other is part of a main character's story arc and was ignored.  I'm not asking for copies of the letters... in fact I LOVED the offhanded way that we found out that Rand figured out Alsalam's predicament from hints from "a friend".  It was an immediate, joyful "Ah Verin!" moment.  I just wish that Galad's and Alanna's letters had received similar treatment. All I needed was a couple of lines for each:

 

"A son of...Tigraine...who went into the Waste...Son of a Maiden.  Born on Dragonmount...."  Oh, Light.  He hadn't trusted the Tar Valon witch, and her urgings to question Elayne about al' Thor's mother seemed a trivial thing when his sister had the armies of the Light to marshall... it hadn't seemed the right thing to discuss.  Light.

 

OR:

 

Galad watched as Child Bornhald approached Goldeneyes.  He hadn't entirely trusted the words of the Tar Valon witch, but Dain had confirmed them.  Perrin deserved the truth, and he was pleased that he hadn't had to order Bornhald to it.  A man should approach the Last Battle with a clean conscience.  It was the right thing to do.

 

AND MAYBE:

 

Alanna became aware of Nynaeve fussing over her wounds. Though her thoughts were foggy, they still strayed to Verin's betrayal.  It had to be a betrayal.  She had given directions to the farm in Sheinar, and when the man in black had taken her, he had known it was she who held Rand's bond.  Did he know of the others?  She winced, though Nynaeve was a gentle as possible...  Verin, a Darkfriend...or could she have had some other purpose?....what were her other words?  There will come a time when in service to the Light, you will need to release Rand's bond.  Do not be spiteful... he cannot help his resentment, and the wrong was yours.  You will know the time...

 

OK... not a writer here...and these are my own fantasies, but we could have been given SOMETHING!!!  Just a hint...and then let us speculate over the details!!

[jjp]

I am going to pretend that each of those things happened. Silly how simple it is.

[Whatagoon]

 

God thats so irritating.  The entire series is over - it's time to be open about this stuff and stop playing little games so readers can try to figure things out.

Why?  Jordan obviously wanted to leave more than a few mysteries to the series as it ended, so that his world would feel more like a living, breathing thing rather than just words in a book. 

 

It's frankly annoying to see people who just want to be spoon-fed everything about the stories.  The explanations are there, in the books.  Just use your head a bit.

It is a massive world, we don't expect every single question one could imagine to be answered. BUT we have also been reading these books where many details, points of view, side trips, moments are the norm. I get the fast paced drop everything the last battle is here. But once it is done take a breath and realize that you have spent thousands of pages crafting a world that involves detail. And respect that if your readers have stayed with you for all these books then they probably appreciate details.

[Whatagoon]

Okay, first off let me say that I loved the book.  I loved the fast pace, the frenetic and shifting POV's, and the lameness with which many people died.  It all rang true of a great, vast Last Battle.  So these are just random frustrations, not book bashings....but I was definitely perturbed by a few things that weren't included.  

 

For one, I'm thinking of Nynaeve and Moiraine.  I know they were their roles as "Powerade" for Rand were logical... but it left them without much else to do.  I appreciate Moiraine's role in facilitating Rand's Peace, the Seal breaking, and the Marshalling of the armies so he could move on to his real purpose... and I enjoyed the fun "tea" exchange"... but after having her gone so long... I just wanted more.  By the same token, I appreciated Nynaeve's healing of Talmanes.... showing once again just how powerful she is... and her herbal remedies with Alanna... and her not being stupid enough to miss that something is going on with the Bond Girls not "crying over their Bier"... but I missed a showdown with Moggy...  I mean Moggy's end was a weak imitation of Elaida's, even with the full circle of the leash coming back to her.  I just love Nynaeve, and wanted more.

 

Another disappointment was the handling of Verin's letters.  I mean really, it's suddenly so important for me to know that there are male pillow friends in Book 14 of a series (the final book) that I need to be told twice!?! ...I couldn't be trusted to figure that out??  But I don't get to have even hints of Verin's contingencies????  I think the former, not the latter, was better fodder for fan speculation.  One is world building and should have been handled earlier in the series...the other is part of a main character's story arc and was ignored.  I'm not asking for copies of the letters... in fact I LOVED the offhanded way that we found out that Rand figured out Alsalam's predicament from hints from "a friend".  It was an immediate, joyful "Ah Verin!" moment.  I just wish that Galad's and Alanna's letters had received similar treatment. All I needed was a couple of lines for each:

 

"A son of...Tigraine...who went into the Waste...Son of a Maiden.  Born on Dragonmount...."  Oh, Light.  He hadn't trusted the Tar Valon witch, and her urgings to question Elayne about al' Thor's mother seemed a trivial thing when his sister had the armies of the Light to marshall... it hadn't seemed the right thing to discuss.  Light.

 

OR:

 

Galad watched as Child Bornhald approached Goldeneyes.  He hadn't entirely trusted the words of the Tar Valon witch, but Dain had confirmed them.  Perrin deserved the truth, and he was pleased that he hadn't had to order Bornhald to it.  A man should approach the Last Battle with a clean conscience.  It was the right thing to do.

 

AND MAYBE:

 

Alanna became aware of Nynaeve fussing over her wounds. Though her thoughts were foggy, they still strayed to Verin's betrayal.  It had to be a betrayal.  She had given directions to the farm in Sheinar, and when the man in black had taken her, he had known it was she who held Rand's bond.  Did he know of the others?  She winced, though Nynaeve was a gentle as possible...  Verin, a Darkfriend...or could she have had some other purpose?....what were her other words?  There will come a time when in service to the Light, you will need to release Rand's bond.  Do not be spiteful... he cannot help his resentment, and the wrong was yours.  You will know the time...

 

OK... not a writer here...and these are my own fantasies, but we could have been given SOMETHING!!!  Just a hint...and then let us speculate over the details!!

I quite liked those! Exactly the little off hand details that we have grown used to in WoT and a nice way to answer some admitedly smaller but pervasive questions. Might just make these canon in my head :)

[Whatagoon]

One minor thing I would have liked to see, would have been Lan's reaction when Mat told him that Jain Farstrider died clean.

Agree.

[Whatagoon]

 

 

Just my personal opinion here:

Nakomi is the renamed child that Avi will bear.

from the future? She met nakomi before knowing about her children

Oh I like this idea about Nakomi being Avi's renamed kid.

Wasn't there some speculation that Aviendha could time travel? Unknowingly? I remember reading a post about it but can't recall the consensus.

If there is a time traveling weave, or if it is related to the world of dreams, then Nakomi, as Avi's kid, can come back in time to prompt her mom to reenter the columns, thus beginning the process to save the Aiel. And for helping pull Rand out, either she was helping her father when needed or simply wanted to see him again, or both.

[Tharand]

How did Alanna get captured?

 

What was in Verin's letter to Alanna?

 

Although I also would want to know what Verin wrote to Alanna, I am not as curious as to why she was there.

 

Being one of the main Green Ajah characters, her whole purpose is to be there during the Last Battle and fight. This is probably also why Rand is not surprised when he feels Alanna in the north or doesn't react when he notice that one of his bonded females are in pain (although he doesn't know it is her).

 

I don't believe she is BA - then we would have had hints and it doesn't match the viewings. Rather I am leaning to a) she was over confident in her Green Ajah role and ability to play a role helping Rand win the Last Battle and easily captured (if one is fool enough to travel to SG alone, that could easily happen with Graendal and Moridin haning around...) or b) the sacrifice lamb theory - this implies that Verin gave her to the DF as they would want one of Rands women in pain during the Last Battle knowing that Rand would not react as strongly to this as if it was Min who would otherwise be the most likely candidate to kidnap.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

I think there is a hint that Alanna's BA. During the defense at the Two Rivers - lead by Perrin - Verin tells Perrin that he donwanna trust Alanna. ;)

 

Seriously, she tells Perrin not to trust her. Although, that could just be normal old Aes Sedai talk, it could also be Verin telling him to watch out for her as she knows she's a BA. Why she didn't put her in the book of BAs she gives to Egwene is a whole other question if she knew, though.

[Edsel]

I think there is a hint that Alanna's BA. During the defense at the Two Rivers - lead by Perrin - Verin tells Perrin that he donwanna trust Alanna. ;)

 

Seriously, she tells Perrin not to trust her. Although, that could just be normal old Aes Sedai talk, it could also be Verin telling him to watch out for her as she knows she's a BA. Why she didn't put her in the book of BAs she gives to Egwene is a whole other question if she knew, though.

I'm not sure she was BA, but if she was, perhaps Verin didn't put her in the list because either A) she could never confirm it, or B) she had tested Alanna, as she had Cadsuanne, and felt that she was sure Alanna would end up returning to the light and/or that she could use Alanna in some way to help Rand... as a sacrifice of one of the Bond Girls or whatever.  She is Verin, after all... she doesn't have to tell Egwene everything that she knows.  The frustrating thing is that Alanna's motivation could be explained by being BA or not...  she could have bonded Rand because she thought it would move her up in the esteem of the Shadow.... or she could just have been an overconfident, cougarish Green... she does seem "hurt" when he is bonded with other women on his own and pushes her to the back of his mind.  Just a little more hinting would have been nice.

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

 

I think there is a hint that Alanna's BA. During the defense at the Two Rivers - lead by Perrin - Verin tells Perrin that he donwanna trust Alanna. ;)

 

Seriously, she tells Perrin not to trust her. Although, that could just be normal old Aes Sedai talk, it could also be Verin telling him to watch out for her as she knows she's a BA. Why she didn't put her in the book of BAs she gives to Egwene is a whole other question if she knew, though.

I'm not sure she was BA, but if she was, perhaps Verin didn't put her in the list because either A) she could never confirm it, or B) she had tested Alanna, as she had Cadsuanne, and felt that she was sure Alanna would end up returning to the light and/or that she could use Alanna in some way to help Rand... as a sacrifice of one of the Bond Girls or whatever.  She is Verin, after all... she doesn't have to tell Egwene everything that she knows.  The frustrating thing is that Alanna's motivation could be explained by being BA or not...  she could have bonded Rand because she thought it would move her up in the esteem of the Shadow.... or she could just have been an overconfident, cougarish Green... she does seem "hurt" when he is bonded with other women on his own and pushes her to the back of his mind.  Just a little more hinting would have been nice.

 

Agreed. To be honest, I was more than cool with certain elements of the storyline not being summed up for us or for us never finding out, originally. Now, I find it kind of annoying after reading through 14 books, some multiple times. I started this series when I was either 16 or 17, I'm now 39. I think I deserve to know a few things, for crying out loud.

[Zafnib]

I don't know if this qualifies as a subplot, but the whole thing with the would in Rand's side just seemed to vanish.  Was the whole purpose of that just to give him the idea for the cleansing?  It seemed like for most of the series we were literally beaten over the head with the fact that he had an incurable wound.  It seemed almost as if the wound itself was it's own character.  Almost every POV we had from one of the Bond Girls (I really like that, BTW, Kudos to Edsel if he/she came up with it, if not, kudos to whoever did) after they were bonded had an "I can't believe you can stand the pain" thought included somewhere.  Nyneave tried to heal it several times, Flinn tried to head it, Cadsuane even commented on it at one point IIRC.

 

The whole dragon's blood on the rocks of SG prophecy seemed to fall kind of flat to me as well.  He's bleeding a little so he leaves some footprints?  That's it?  How does that save anyone?  Using the TP as a buffer to weave Saidin & Saidar into a prison is what saved everyone, how is his blood involved in that?  Are we back to the Aiel being the "blood of the Dragon" as part of the fighting force protecting SG?  I guess that works, but it seems awfully weak.

[Rhienne]

I don't know if this qualifies as a subplot, but the whole thing with the would in Rand's side just seemed to vanish.  Was the whole purpose of that just to give him the idea for the cleansing?  It seemed like for most of the series we were literally beaten over the head with the fact that he had an incurable wound.  It seemed almost as if the wound itself was it's own character.  Almost every POV we had from one of the Bond Girls (I really like that, BTW, Kudos to Edsel if he/she came up with it, if not, kudos to whoever did) after they were bonded had an "I can't believe you can stand the pain" thought included somewhere.  Nyneave tried to heal it several times, Flinn tried to head it, Cadsuane even commented on it at one point IIRC.

 

The whole dragon's blood on the rocks of SG prophecy seemed to fall kind of flat to me as well.  He's bleeding a little so he leaves some footprints?  That's it?  How does that save anyone?  Using the TP as a buffer to weave Saidin & Saidar into a prison is what saved everyone, how is his blood involved in that?  Are we back to the Aiel being the "blood of the Dragon" as part of the fighting force protecting SG?  I guess that works, but it seems awfully weak.

I think the blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul prophecy was confirmed as being literally just him bleeding on them a bit.  I guess that was at least a little throwback to the wound in his side, but it seems like it could at least have been a bit more dramatic.  Maybe it could have opened up dramatically and Rand had major blood loss or something.  I think anything would have been an improvement on ''Oh, just a normal day with my wound that won't heal dripping blood all over my nice clothes.''

[Zafnib]

But was the wound mentioned at all, even during the sword fight with Moridin?  I don't even remember it being mentioned.  The closest I can think of is when he woke up in the tent and noted that he was free of pain...even then I don't think there was a specific mention of the wound in his side.

 

Yes, it would have been better if during their swordfight, Moridin had pierced the old wound (which he originally gave him in the first place, how cool would that have been?) so he starts bleeding and then he is faced with the option to stop and get healed or continue on and weave the prison.  If he makes a conscious choice to continue even though he knows he is bleeding to death, at least then his blood on the rocks is significant.

 

I almost put that in my original post, but I didn't have the books handy and I was afraid that had actually happened and I didn't catch it.  It seemed so obvious that it should have been there I thought maybe I missed it and would get flamed.

[jjp]

It was pretty specifically mentioned when he was on his way to the pit. Rand even thinks about the prophesy being fulfilled looking at it. It was just kinda, "hmm interesting."

[Edsel]

I don't know if this qualifies as a subplot, but the whole thing with the would in Rand's side just seemed to vanish.  Was the whole purpose of that just to give him the idea for the cleansing?  It seemed like for most of the series we were literally beaten over the head with the fact that he had an incurable wound.  It seemed almost as if the wound itself was it's own character.  Almost every POV we had from one of the Bond Girls (I really like that, BTW, Kudos to Edsel if he/she came up with it, if not, kudos to whoever did) after they were bonded had an "I can't believe you can stand the pain" thought included somewhere.  Nyneave tried to heal it several times, Flinn tried to head it, Cadsuane even commented on it at one point IIRC.

 

The whole dragon's blood on the rocks of SG prophecy seemed to fall kind of flat to me as well.  He's bleeding a little so he leaves some footprints?  That's it?  How does that save anyone?  Using the TP as a buffer to weave Saidin & Saidar into a prison is what saved everyone, how is his blood involved in that?  Are we back to the Aiel being the "blood of the Dragon" as part of the fighting force protecting SG?  I guess that works, but it seems awfully weak.

On coining "The Bond Girls"... thanks... I just kept thinking of Mr. Perfect 6'6" standing on Dragonmount with sword raised high and three hot, capable women in various poses around him with knives, spear, or a cutting look and raised chin... LOL... Edsel

[Winespring Patron]

I realize that there simply wasn't space in AMOL to have every warm hearted, feel good closure scene between characters but I was really hoping that Mat and Nynaeve got a closing scene together.  It would have been nice to have Nynaeve tell Mat how proud she was of him and that he was there when everyone needed him the most.  The potential for having two relatively at odds characters reconcile would have made an excellent follow-up to Nyn's loyal defense of him when she first met Tuon.  Of course, Mat would've probably spoiled the tender moment by trivializing his role or apologizing for making her tenure as village Wisdom more of an ordeal than necessary.

[Edsel]

I realize that there simply wasn't space in AMOL to have every warm hearted, feel good closure scene between characters but I was really hoping that Mat and Nynaeve got a closing scene together.  It would have been nice to have Nynaeve tell Mat how proud she was of him and that he was there when everyone needed him the most.  The potential for having two relatively at odds characters reconcile would have made an excellent follow-up to Nyn's loyal defense of him when she first met Tuon.  Of course, Mat would've probably spoiled the tender moment by trivializing his role or apologizing for making her tenure as village Wisdom more of an ordeal than necessary.

More Nynaeve in general would have been nice!  

[Suttree]

 

I realize that there simply wasn't space in AMOL to have every warm hearted, feel good closure scene between characters but I was really hoping that Mat and Nynaeve got a closing scene together.

Wasn't space?! As if we needed scene after scene of that video game esque battle porn where trollocs were chopped down like fodder? There was more than enough room for scenes like that.

[Azeraph]

Where did the Ogier come from? I can't remember?

[Knivy]

Either a mirror world or some place like finnland, i forgot which.

[Magus sedai]

Maybe the royal seanchan going to the ToM was Matt and the seed slays an ancient wrong could have been the cleansing or the destruction of Aridol, not sure I need to do some research so don't rip my post to bad