Not In The Book Discussion (Full Spoilers)

[MountaineerWV]

 

Its not a great example- stadium is better suited as an example for an army using gateways since you can have multiple 'exits'.  But the point is we're just taking numbers for granted. I'd like to hear a drill sergeant or somebody with some experience training marching and troop movements chime in on how many troops you could march by a given location in columns of two in an hour.

I was not a drill, but I do have several years or marching and coordinating troop movements. The flow rate is relevant, but not nearly as relevant as the bottlenecks on either side of the gateway. A basement on one side and a path of limited width on the other. There is no marshalling area on either side to group thousands and thousands of trollocs.

 

Anyway, like was said - this is what happened, so no point arguing. I suppose if the first 1,000 or so shadowspawn to exit were Fades, they could easily secure the area. Once a foothold was established of that strength, it would be incredibly difficult to root them out.

[Sabio]

In an earlier book after the Cleansing, there was a meeting of the Forsaken, and one of them states that without the Taint, the Forsaken that channeled Saidin weren't as tightly bound to the D.O.

 

I thought that would foreshadow one of them, Demandred would have been my choice, turning back to the light.

Demandred was too full of hate to ever turn back.  He could never be on the same side as LTT.  Lanfear was the only one I could remotely see turing to the light, but in the end we saw Lanfear only loved Lanfear, turning to the light would of meant helping others.  That was never in her nature.

[mbuehner]

 

 

Its not a great example- stadium is better suited as an example for an army using gateways since you can have multiple 'exits'.  But the point is we're just taking numbers for granted. I'd like to hear a drill sergeant or somebody with some experience training marching and troop movements chime in on how many troops you could march by a given location in columns of two in an hour.

I was not a drill, but I do have several years or marching and coordinating troop movements. The flow rate is relevant, but not nearly as relevant as the bottlenecks on either side of the gateway. A basement on one side and a path of limited width on the other. There is no marshalling area on either side to group thousands and thousands of trollocs.

 

Anyway, like was said - this is what happened, so no point arguing. I suppose if the first 1,000 or so shadowspawn to exit were Fades, they could easily secure the area. Once a foothold was established of that strength, it would be incredibly difficult to root them out.

 

Thanks thats great incite!  I don't worry too much about the basement, channelers can expand into other building with total ease and they may have just rushed out fades in front and secured the whole block. The marshaling areas would be the islands in the ways... the bridges to the waygates are the only real bottle neck and that can be treated as one long bottleneck of the same width.

 

And we have precedent for Trollocs suddenly flooding far better guarded cities- at Fal Dara several hundred shadowspan got in at the Dog Gate before the alarm could be raised. At the stone of Tear TWO armies of shadownspawn got full run of the place before resistance could really be brought to bear.

 

I don't think its the initial rush that is really that questionable- its so open to circumstances we can only imagine. Now the number of trollocs you can bring through per hour under ideal conditions is a bigger question, since that dictates how big of an army you are going to face after X many days. So trolloc per hour through a waygate is really relevant to the larger war.

[wintermute]

It has been confirmed that the River of Souls PoV is Demandred

 

Nice. I was hoping for Luc/Isam, but Demandred makes a lot of sense now that we know what he was up to. He even has a love interest for that short story.

[bimber]

I love BS work and will keep following all his stories... i love this book in all but kinda makes me feel due to other books he was working on at the same time that he somewhat was loosing focus on the ending here coz as you progress at the end you get the feeling that everything is hard pressed and somewhat zipped short with lots of stuff missing that could have made this ending so much more.... or maybe we all just had high expectations for the end of this epic journey 

either way am glad we got the ending so cant really complain much about BS

what makes me sad we didnt get more of is some of the death scenes were just too simple like death of Siuan she was IMO one of the key figures and still dont get how she died ...it was like when Min warned her she would die if not close to Gareth she knew she would die so you kinda expect she would do one last heroic thing but all that happened was...hey Siuan came to help..were is she...oh there she is dead -.- 
so then i hoped to see Gareth as her warder go nuts and charge and as a great legendary general inspire the troops around him one last time but not even that all we got he went nuts and charged and died..

it all kind leaves for me a bitter taste in my mouth they deserved a better ending 

Also how did Moghedien stay alive she just got blasted by a canon from close range? and she got out of it with just some bruises not even missing legs or arms really? for me her death at that point would have been one cool scene and fitting and funny i loved it but got so annoyed when she stayed alive why would she be kept alive? yeah ok if we got future books with Mats and Tuons stories in sanchian she might be making some trouble in future but since we wont get those why not just kill her off...

and another thing if Rand knew he will stay alive and told Alivia to get him clothes and gold why did she need to steal it? Rand had chests full of coins and gold

Also why was Mat told he was considered to be invited to be one of the horn heroes and told he turned down...but we didnt get anymore info as to why? yeah Mat said he wouldnt like to be one of them but still something more would have been nice...

and what did Arthur tell Tuon and feel sad we didnt even see her thank Mat for that

just feel so many things were left out :(
sorry for the long post

[Guest Uca]

Ok, this is killing me. I came here because I figured it would be killing others, too, but no one seems bothered by it, which suggests I just missed it somewhere. 

 

WHAT HAPPENED TO GRAENDAL?! Yes, stabbed by a spear by Aviendha. Yes, her compulsion weave backfired and she ended up compelled to/by/for Aviendha. Then what?! We know an "ugly Aes Sedai" carried Aviendha back to camp. I'm gonna assume that was Graendal. But there is no THEN WHAT after that. I don't enjoy open endings to Forsaken. Not a fan of Moggy's end, but accept it as an ending. We know what happened. Sul'dam takes her and makes her a damane. Not much escaping that. (Unless you're Egwene... So... gah, that's a loose end of "eventuality" but whatever.) We have no ending for Graendal, unless I missed something?

[MountaineerWV]

Ok, this is killing me. I came here because I figured it would be killing others, too, but no one seems bothered by it, which suggests I just missed it somewhere. 

 

WHAT HAPPENED TO GRAENDAL?! Yes, stabbed by a spear by Aviendha. Yes, her compulsion weave backfired and she ended up compelled to/by/for Aviendha. Then what?! We know an "ugly Aes Sedai" carried Aviendha back to camp. I'm gonna assume that was Graendal. But there is no THEN WHAT after that. I don't enjoy open endings to Forsaken. Not a fan of Moggy's end, but accept it as an ending. We know what happened. Sul'dam takes her and makes her a damane. Not much escaping that. (Unless you're Egwene... So... gah, that's a loose end of "eventuality" but whatever.) We have no ending for Graendal, unless I missed something?

She compelled herself into basically being braindead. I would assume that the WT is going to analyze her and see if the can capture any and all knowledge she may have from AoL. I doubt they will execute her. What did the WT do with Mesaana? She's in a similar situation.

[Guest riley]

So in KoD and CoT there are references made to the Great Stump but the issue wasn't tackled in TGS or ToM. I guess I'm just curious if it will be addressed in aMoL since it was skipped over in the previous books plot lines. I'm not really trying to read what y'all have said since I haven't read aMoL yet but if someone could PM me an answer it would be appreciated.

[Draynur]

Maybe I just missed it and it is infact in the book, but what sword does Rand give to Tam, it keeps going over how the sword used to be important or belong to someone great but not who or how he got it?

Maybe I just missed it and he just retrieved it from Drangonmount when he destroyed the Choden Chal and the sword belonged to LTT?

[Suttree]

Maybe I just missed it and it is infact in the book, but what sword does Rand give to Tam, it keeps going over how the sword used to be important or belong to someone great but not who or how he got it?

 

It is Justice, Artur Hawkwing's sword. Some workers found it under a submerged statue and gave it to Rand.

[Draynur]

Thanks!

[Vardar]

 

 

 

 

Its not a great example- stadium is better suited as an example for an army using gateways since you can have multiple 'exits'. But the point is we're just taking numbers for granted. I'd like to hear a drill sergeant or somebody with some experience training marching and troop movements chime in on how many troops you could march by a given location in columns of two in an hour.

I was not a drill, but I do have several years or marching and coordinating troop movements. The flow rate is relevant, but not nearly as relevant as the bottlenecks on either side of the gateway. A basement on one side and a path of limited width on the other. There is no marshalling area on either side to group thousands and thousands of trollocs.

 

Anyway, like was said - this is what happened, so no point arguing. I suppose if the first 1,000 or so shadowspawn to exit were Fades, they could easily secure the area. Once a foothold was established of that strength, it would be incredibly difficult to root them out.

 

Several hundred at fal dara? More like several dozen.

 

Thanks thats great incite! I don't worry too much about the basement, channelers can expand into other building with total ease and they may have just rushed out fades in front and secured the whole block. The marshaling areas would be the islands in the ways... the bridges to the waygates are the only real bottle neck and that can be treated as one long bottleneck of the same width.

 

And we have precedent for Trollocs suddenly flooding far better guarded cities- at Fal Dara several hundred shadowspan got in at the Dog Gate before the alarm could be raised. At the stone of Tear TWO armies of shadownspawn got full run of the place before resistance could really be brought to bear.

 

I don't think its the initial rush that is really that questionable- its so open to circumstances we can only imagine. Now the number of trollocs you can bring through per hour under ideal conditions is a bigger question, since that dictates how big of an army you are going to face after X many days. So trolloc per hour through a waygate is really relevant to the larger war.

Several hundred? Several dozen is more like it. Not at fal Dara

[Kil]

Some characters who didn't appear that I had hoped to see, but don't think have been mentioned so far: Caraline Damodred. Areina. Merana. That one raken pilot who had the POV when the gateway exploded. I seriously expected it to be her flying Mat and Olver there at the end.

[MountainDancer]

The biggest thing missing from the book was a single sentence.     If Brandon would have added this single sentence, then the book's ending would have been much more satisfying.

 

and the missing sentence from the final chapter is:   "Rand thought that he would visit the Tinkers first to teach them the song"

 

without this missing sentence, we really don't know if he ever teaches the song to any one!

[clu7ch]

I am hoping this information makes it's way to the encyclopedia, but I want to know some things about the Snakes and Foxes and wishes certain people made. I was hoping for that :( 

 

Also would have liked to see Eggy come back immediately as a horn hero, but iirc, there aren't any channelers in the group. Odd thing, really. 

 

Would have also liked a sentence where hawkwing noticed his sword in Tam's hands. I like details and that would have been baller. 

 

Also, anyone else think a few things were (probably purposefully) left out? Hawkwing's conversation with Tuon, the entire thing with SH being the DO, etc. 

[Sabio]

The biggest thing missing from the book was a single sentence.     If Brandon would have added this single sentence, then the book's ending would have been much more satisfying.

 

and the missing sentence from the final chapter is:   "Rand thought that he would visit the Tinkers first to teach them the song"

 

without this missing sentence, we really don't know if he ever teaches the song to any one!

Ever heard of napster, Rand will get sued if he gives songs away for free.  +)

[Sabio]

So are the Aiel pissed that Rand never actually spit in sightblinders eye, or at a spot he might of thought if the DO had eyes they might be?  I think that means he has Toh to the aiel again.

[Dan al'Thor]

didnt go through all 20 pages so I'm not sure if this has been touched upon but

 

What happened to Dobraine?

[Alternate34]

Maybe I missed this in an earlier book, but did we ever get a definitive answer on who ordered the attack on Algarin's manor? The Taim reveal as Forsaken offers the proof missing from the theory but it still seems a bit late. And by late, I mean his "coming out" in the Prologue. He would have needed to Forsaken mark prior to then. Which is plausible except for the fact that apparently these Forsaken meetings were frequent and he was not attending them before.

[pattikins]

O.K., back to Nakomi if you don't mind.  I will assume that the grey-haired Aiel woman at the beginning of the epilogue is her.  That's all we get??  Really???  

 

Since my one and only looney theory was not completely shot down (that Nakomi is Rand's mother, Shaiel, either having somehow survived her wounds and childbirth on Dragonmount or appearing as some sort of guardian angel, interested equally in the future of the Aiel and in her son), I choose to cling to it.  Despite everything anyone has ever flamed here on the subject.  It will at least give me something to talk to Matt Hatch about if I ever have the pleasure of dining with him and other theory-wogs again.

 

 Last time, I just smiled and thought: What a nice guy.  I sure wish I cared one whit for theories and such.  I just like a good story and am happy to watch it unfold as it will.

 

While that is true, I was about to make a big stink about Min's robotic and unsatisfying appearances in the first two thirds of Memories.  She snapped out of it and became Min again, but I agree with all that has been said about her in this thread so far.  I will add that I never believed her lack of jealousy, being as she was written as Rand's constant companion for quite a long time and not exactly a doormat.  "Viewings" shouldn't change human nature so thoroughly, and this did not ring true for me.  She should at least have been struggling with feelings of inadequacy in comparison to the near-perfect Elayne and the statuesque and awesome Aviendha.  What red-blooded non-Aiel woman in love would really be so accommodating?  So, another thing missing in Memories were realistic emotions from Min concerning Rand as well as any satisfying Nakomi clarification.

 

 And I would have voted for fewer repetetive battles and more wedding scenes/death scenes/reunion scenes. Reading it in about the same time frame as actually passed did convey the feeling of the incredible intensity and relentless horror of battle, and I appreciate that, but I just don't think RJ would have left Egwene and Gawyn's marriage off screen.  

[Winespring Patron]

Supporting (Minor) Characters, a lot of their fates weren't disclosed (I know there wasn't the space for it...):

 

Petra???  Did he have a falling out with Valan Luca and leave the Menagerie? Did some kind of disaster / Bubble of Evil destroy the traveling show and force Petra to find another line of work? He always struck me as a "gentle giant" type, it's hard to imagine him voluntarily choosing to become a soldier in the Seanchan Army. I remember Mat saying that Petra and his wife were saving to buy an inn someday, presumably to retire from the show and operate personally.

 

Setalle Anan: Always liked her character, the way she mistakenly treated Nynaeve and Elayne as trollops (LOC) was hilarious. She was extremely loyal to and protective of Mat; opting to continue serving the forces of the Light instead of taking a Gateway to Illian and rejoining her family. I really hoped she survived Aravine's betrayal at the Gateway to FOM but the odds are against it. The Trollocs and Sharans had several hours to run down and recapture the survivors of Faile's caravan.

 

Juilin Sandar: The thief catcher who thought himself as good as a Lord, the last POV I remember was of him leading a squad of infantry on the WT's counterattack up the West Slope of Polov Heights: If the AS took 50% fatalities in that fight you can imagine how badly the Tower Guards must have fared... Juilin probably won't be pursuing Tar Valon's "Most Wanted" in the Fourth Age!

 

Does anyone else have a favorite minor character that fell into oblivion at the closing of AMOL?

 

[pattikins]

Favorite minor characters? How about: fewer of them is fine with me!  How about: I really liked Bode Cauthon, but who really cares where she ended up?  For the sake of continuity, it wouldn't be right to refrain from introducing more of these minors, necessary or not.  And it gives Bob K. lots more to do.  

[nathabj]

The main things that wasn't in the book that I wanted to see was a real ending. More than just Rand is going travelling. As others have said, does he not want to see his kids? why do the girls get to know, but not his dad. How does Cadsuane figure it out, but not Moraine or Thom. I would've preferred a fake burial that the original people, Mat, Perrin, Moraine, etc, and the girls, and even Caddy knew about, and potentially even a scene years down the line as they are sitting around the fire and Thom telling all the kids (the ones we keep hearing about rom Min) about the last battle. or Loial, or both. I am a sucker for happy endings, but mostly it hurt me that Tam didn't know. And that Mat and Perrin didnt know either. Or seem all that bummed about it. I wish they had. Especially after Hawking's lil pep talk to Mat about Rand saving him.

 

Also, was anyone else bummed that Nyn didn't bring him back from the dead after 3 days? I was super excited about that and it never came. and after all that foreshadowing..

[crhaden]

WTH happened to Amys?

 

Shortly after Aviendha killed Rhuarc, as Graendal duels with Cadsuane and the other light channelers, "a storm of lightning fell around Amys, throwing her to the ground."

A few pages later on the ledge with Graendal - "Aviendha needed help. Amys, Cadsuane, the others."

Aviendha again thinks of Amys after weaving a gateway - "Please, Amys, see it! she thought as she countered Graendal's shield."

 

Page 852 is the last time Amys is mentioned in the book, unless I've missed something through two re-reads. We do see Aviendha talking to Sorilea and Bair about the Rhuidean visions as Nynaeve confronts her about Rand being dead, but no mention of Amys...

 

Are we to assume Amys was killed by Graendal's lightning??? I really wish that had been tied up, especially with Rhuarc dying.

[Vardar]

O.K., back to Nakomi if you don't mind. I will assume that the grey-haired Aiel woman at the beginning of the epilogue is her. That's all we get?? Really???

Wait what? She was mentioned again!?!? I gotta start my reread soon. In finishing up TOM again before I do it. I missed that