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What is the Horn of Valere?


Torome
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We know what the Horn does and its significance, but my question is:  Is it a ter'angreal? 

 

For the most part, 'magical' artifacts are divided up into the three angreal, sa'angreal(just really powerful angreal), and ter'angreal.  Now, we all know what ter'angreal are and do(which varies), but for some reason I can't see the Horn as being 'just another ter'angreal'.  I don't think I have ever read a character saying that it is ter'angreal for that matter; which is odd since the term seems to be used constantly for almost every other item that does something outside the realm of common physics.  

 

It is said to be from before the AoL, so before the power was consciously harnessed, yet the inscription is in the Old Tongue.  Aside from that fact I would have said that it an artifact of the Wheel itself and beyond simply a ter'angreal.  I'm sure this has been gone over before but I haven't seen too many theories on the Horn itself since I am so new to DM.

 

 

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It is not a ter'angreal. It's older than AoL so we don't know exactly what it is, but we do know that the inscription in the OT was added in AoL.

 

Keep in mind that Eye of the World was not a ter'angreal either. So not every 'magical' thing has to be a *angreal.

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Is not the Eye of the World a well? A well might not be a ter'angreal but it is rather close, it is just something to hold some of the Power in the physical world, like a One Power battery. The Portal stones are from the first age, perhaps the horn is from then as well.

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It could be a key to bring souls back after they die, however, only the strongest souls, those who become heroes, die, then become heroes again, whose thread in the pattern shine the brightest, can be called back. This may be why the Heroes of the Horn wait in TAR; once recalled by the horn they cannot return completely to the Realm of the Dead. Of course I'm probably completely wrong but it is something to think about

 

Another question, was the Horn used in the War of Shadows, and if not, why not?

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The Horn of Valere is simply a Pattern-level object in my mind. If channeling draws the essence of the Sea of Souls (collection of all souls not currently spun into the Pattern) and uses it to alter the Pattern in the same way thought (the essence of the soul of the individual in T'A'R') alters the structure of Tel'Aran'Rhiod, then Pattern-level objects weave the very structure of the Pattern to perform tasks, as opposed to ter'angreal which draw from the Sea of Souls just as channeling does.

 

You could say ter'angreal are objects which impose the will of mankind on the Pattern, and Pattern-level objects are those which impose the will of the Pattern on mankind.*

 

*Actually, no, you couldn't. It was still mankind who created the Pattern-level object, so it'd be more accurate to say ter'angreal impose the will of makind on the Pattern by weaving the essence of humanity, while Pattern-level objects impose the will of mankind on the Pattern by weaving the essence of the Pattern itself.

Edited by Hadilmir
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The Horn of Valere is simply a Pattern-level object in my mind. If channeling draws the essence of the Sea of Souls (collection of all souls not currently spun into the Pattern) and uses it to alter the Pattern in the same way thought (the essence of the soul of the individual in T'A'R') alters the structure of Tel'Aran'Rhiod, then Pattern-level objects weave the very structure of the Pattern to perform tasks, as opposed to ter'angreal which draw from the Sea of Souls just as channeling does.

 

You could say ter'angreal are objects which impose the will of mankind on the Pattern, and Pattern-level objects are those which impose the will of the Pattern on mankind.*

 

*Actually, no, you couldn't. It was still mankind who created the Pattern-level object, so it'd be more accurate to say ter'angreal impose the will of makind on the Pattern by weaving the essence of humanity, while Pattern-level objects impose the will of mankind on the Pattern by weaving the essence of the Pattern itself.

 

Where's all that coming from?

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I believe RJ said that the Horn was known in the AoL, but it was more of a novelty museum piece. They had the legends, but nobody really believed it. It wasn't until after the war and foretellings made specific mention of it that it was given any importance. Sort of like if say Exacalibur was placed in a museum. At the outbreak of WW3, who would go running for it? It would probably be the last thing on peoples minds.

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Interview: Apr 20th, 2004

TOR Questions of the Week Part I (Verbatim)

Week 1 Question

Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

Robert Jordan

The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

 

In any case, the story of the Horn was carried on through the Age of Legends in the same way that myths are today, and magnified thereafter though the twisting that occurs in the telling and retelling of a story. And believe me, stories about the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies and everything concerned with them were rife during the Breaking. When everything is going to hell around them, people cling to anything and everything that might offer hope. That is how the Breaking could end with tales of the Dragon Reborn and the Prophecies already on many peoples' lips.

Interview: Oct 4th, 2005

Robert Jordan's Blog: ONE MORE TIME

Robert Jordan

For Randshammer, you might say that mortals made the Horn of Valere. They certainly weren't gods.

Interview: Dec 2nd, 2010

4th Age Podcast Interview with Team Jordan (Verbatim)

Andrew Gelos

One of the questions—and this is a really weird one, at least for me—I was wondering—and obviously we know that if it's pertaining too much to things that are going to be coming out in the books that haven't been released yet, we know that they can't be discussed, and that's completely and totally understandable—but I was really wondering: I've recently started yet another re-read of the series with my wife, and I got to thinking about the Horn of Valere (rhymes with full-AIR)...or Valere (full-EAR)—and once again, I sometimes flip back and forth between the way I originally heard it and the way it probably should be pronounced—but how does the Horn function? Is it actually an old ter'angreal, or is it completely unrelated to the One Power?

Alan Romanczuk

Hmm.

 

MARIA SIMONS

Okay...we don't really know. No one really knows. It's an ancient artifact, probably not a ter'angreal.

 

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Excuse me, Maria, I have to interrupt for just a moment. I actually found some notes on this, in the bottom of Jim's desk.

 

MARIA SIMONS

Oh, really?

 

ALAN ROMANCZUK

I don't know if anyone's interested.

 

VIRGINIA

Oh yes.

 

SPENCER POWELL

Just a little?

 

MARK

Please, please?

 

ALAN ROMANCZUK

The Horn of Valere, as Maria said, it was created by mortals—we know that; Jim has said as much publicly—and the Horn was created in the Age before the Age of Legends, or at least one Age before; it was not known how far back. But I've discovered that the Horn actually was the original Horn played by Dizzy Gillespie. [laughter] It was manufactured by King—it was the silver flare model. And something happened after this Age...there was so much Bebop imbued in this instrument that it took on its own magical qualities, and when it was found during the Age of Legends, the bent bell was refashioned into a curve, and they put in the Old Tongue inscription inside the bell. [laughter]

 

ANDREW GELOS

That is awesome.

 

VIRGINIA

Wow. I never would have guessed that.

 

ALAN ROMANCZUK

Well, it's really obscure. The power of Bebop is unlimited, and it just transformed through the last couple of Ages, to get into Rand's world, with its current...now, originally, when he blew it, musicians would appear.

 

VIRGINIA

AH. Backup band.

 

ALAN ROMANCZUK

But because of the needs of the time, you know, it suddenly became, Heroes would emerge when it was played. So, that's all we can really say about it. Do you have anything else to add, Maria?

 

MARIA SIMONS

No.

 

JENNIFER LIANG

I can't wait until the Theorylanders get ahold of that.

 

VIRGINIA

Oh yeah. So now we know that the Wheel even weaves inanimate objects into the Pattern, and makes use of them as it wishes.

 

MARK

Now, that story I expect to see in the next Great White Book, version two. [laughter]

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Where's all that coming from?

 

"The Horn of Valere is simply a Pattern-level object in my mind."

'tis just me rambling, but there is nothing in the books which expressly supports or invalidates my opinion on the metaphysics of the Pattern. There are quite a few hints though, if I'm to be believed.

 

I've never been fond of the answer quoted above me concerning Bebop, I'm truly uncertain as to whether it is a joke or not at this point.

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I am sure that was a joke. It would take a lot to convince me it wasn't. I know humor/emotion doesn't translate very well textually, but it is pretty apparent, to me, that ALAN ROMANCZUK was just pulling people's legs. Especially since Maria says "we don't know" and Alan says "I found something at the bottom of his desk", implying it was somehow lost or misplaced there. Her "Oh, really?", to me, implies she knows nothing of this, knows Alan's personality, and knows what is coming next is not serious. The "[Laughter]" bit in the transcript confirms that people took it as a joke.

 

The relevant part of this transcript is Maria's response "Okay...we don't really know. No one really knows. It's an ancient artifact, probably not a ter'angreal." Everything after is just a joke.

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I am sure that was a joke. It would take a lot to convince me it wasn't. I know humor/emotion doesn't translate very well textually, but it is pretty apparent, to me, that ALAN ROMANCZUK was just pulling people's legs. Especially since Maria says "we don't know" and Alan says "I found something at the bottom of his desk", implying it was somehow lost or misplaced there. Her "Oh, really?", to me, implies she knows nothing of this, knows Alan's personality, and knows what is coming next is not serious. The "[Laughter]" bit in the transcript confirms that people took it as a joke.

 

The relevant part of this transcript is Maria's response "Okay...we don't really know. No one really knows. It's an ancient artifact, probably not a ter'angreal." Everything after is just a joke.

Yes, the ridiculousness is precisely why I discount it, but I've never met any of the people in that interview so I don't like to say I'm certain it was a joke. (Who is Alan Romanczuk?)

 

Either way, I never consider that explanation while plotting my metaphysics of the Wheel, and certainly don't plan to.

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Where's all that coming from?

 

"The Horn of Valere is simply a Pattern-level object in my mind."

'tis just me rambling, but there is nothing in the books which expressly supports or invalidates my opinion on the metaphysics of the Pattern. There are quite a few hints though, if I'm to be believed.

 

I've never been fond of the answer quoted above me concerning Bebop, I'm truly uncertain as to whether it is a joke or not at this point.

 

I was referring more to stuff like channeling drawing from the 'sea of souls' and so forth? Is that just fan speculation?

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I was referring more to stuff like channeling drawing from the 'sea of souls' and so forth? Is that just fan speculation?

Yes, just mine most likely. The WoT universe seems to be a story of mankind, so everything should relate to some facet of humanity at some point. Even the Dark One.

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It is based off of the Gjallerhorn of Norse mythology.  Blown by Heimdall(who is one of the figures Mat is based on) it summons the gods and the heroes of Valhalla to Ragnarok.  In the battle Heimdall will die killing Loki, who also has an influence in the creation of Mat.

 

I just wanted to know whether it was considered a ter'angreal or not, and after the discussion it seems to be something else.  The Horn is one of my favorite parts of the series, even though it has taken a real back seat since TDR.  I suppose that it is because "The Grave is no bar to my call" gives me chills every time!

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So... whoever made it, "you could say," were mortals? How powerful were these unknown people? Certainly more powerful than Aes Sedi of the AoL?

Well, they did seem to have the power to twist the very nature of the Pattern and bring avatars of heroic souls back to life... I wouldn't be very quick to call them "mortals", at least not to their faces.

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Forgive me if it's already been mentioned, but has either RJ or BS expounded upon the reason for the creation of the horn? Seems an odd thing that, "beings", with the power to bend the wheel itself to their will would have any reason to summon ghosts in the first place. 

 

Perhaps it was more a semantic than practical purpose?

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