Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Manetheren bloodline


tibbyjudy
 Share

Recommended Posts

Let me start by saying that other people have tried to make this claim before, but as far as I know they've done it without making a certain part of the argument coherently. Aemon al'Caar al'Thorin was the former King of Manetheren. "al'Thorin" sounds suspiciously like "al'Thor." You might say "al'Thor" just means "son of Thor," but if that was still the Two Rivers naming convention and it still meant that, wouldn't Rand's name be Rand al'Tam instead of al'Thor? I'm not sure how this works with women, but wouldn't Egwene's name either be Egwene al'Brandelwyn or al'Marin? Or ay'Marin? "Aybara" is another example of that not making perfect sense. 

 

So, my question is this: Since the prophecies of the Dragon state that he'll be brought up by the old blood, could that mean the old royal blood of Manetheren? I won't pretend that I think this is a fact, but I don't think it can be ruled out as a possibility. 

 

It's really of little consequence overall, but I think it's interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I very much doubt that Tam is the descendant of Manetheren royal bloodline. Aemon, Caar, Thorin, these are just first names that was used in Manetheren. I doubt there was a law to stop commoners from sharing names of nobles. So King Aemon's grandfather was not the only Thorin around.

 

As for the "Rand al Tam" and "Egwene ay Marin" bit, Two Rivers doesn't hold to that tradition. At some point after Manetheren's fall, they probably decided to take on fixed family names. Some chose to keep to the tradition and took their father's names as in the case of Al'Thor or Al'Meara and some chose names like Cauthon or Aybara. And the surnames were passed down by generations. There was probably a fellow named Thor in 2R at some point, but it doesn't really matter much after two thousand years, does it?

 

There are a lot of real world examples of the same thing actually, at least here in Turkey. We didn't have family names until 1934, people back then were identified their fathers' and mothers' names just like Manetheren. Some kept those names, and they were passed down generations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's the same just about everywhere.

 

"MacAdam" is the Scottish son of Adam, "Kristianson" is the Swedish son of Kristian, "Janssens" is the Flemish grandson of Jan, ...

 

Names are very culturally defined. Romans did it similarly to the "Age of Legends"-way (but you weren't named Kevin or Tom, but First, Second, Third, ...), just to give one example.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm posting from a tablet, so I'm keeping this post brief. It was said he'd be born of the old blood and raised by the ancient. The old is the royal line of Andor and the ancient is the Two Rivers/Manetheren connection. I think it's pretty clear names like al'Thor and al'Caar come from those old king names and may even imply direct name-passing back to people like Thorin, but after so long and with little intermixing with the outside world I'm sure everyone could claim descendancy from such figures, family names or not. Not every Two Rivers name is in that style, though.

Edited by Agitel
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the Caar Thorin to Cauthon, never noticed that.  Hell, Aemon's Field turned to Emond's Field.  There are a lot of real world equivalents to the al'Thor and al'Vere and al'Meara, some have already been done, but it happens in English with Jameson and Johnson even though your dad was Allen Jameson you aren't called Kyle Allenson, you are Kyle Jameson even though no one remembers the James that gave the family its name.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd like to think the Cauthon/Caar Thorin is a more likely possibility, considering that even before Rhudian, Mat has memories of the last days of Manetheren. 

 

I wonder how long it actually has been since the Two Rivers became 'forgotten' from the rest of the world. I would suggest about four centuries, based on my hazy memories of the books saying thats how long its been since they've seen queens guardsmen or tax collectors (it could just be four generations, which is anywhere from 20 to 50 years/or eighty-two hundred years).

 

http://www.wotsummary.com/files/map.jpg

Edited by jedman67
Link to comment
Share on other sites

remember in the books that al is for son and ay is for daughter. Likely what happened is the survivors within the two rivers stopped evolving their names and kept names relating to their glorious past in homeage to the sacrafice that was necessary. then some of these combined and created hybred names once the sacrafice became more murky and unknown. Thus you end up with Al'Thor, Aybara, Ayellen, Al'Caar, etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had a thought, it can't be the BUT but it certainly is related to ancient blood. I suspect that Eqwene is a partial rebirth of Queen Eldrene of Manetheren, or perhaps descened from her. Not only is she one of the strongest AS since the Trolloc Wars, you see her figuring out weaves and little tricks of the power without thinking (attaching the ball of light to the door in the WT, for example). She is also very good at puzzling things out that have mystefied AS for generations; Traveling via TAR*, making cuendiliar, Traveling via Gateway, and splitting weaves significantly better than most).

More to Egwene Al'vere than meets the eye - the old blood is truly strong in this one as well.

 

**Why can't you Travel inside TAR the same way as when you dream yourself into TAR? I.e. picturing someplace, and then simply being there? In Ebou Dar, why doesnt Elayne or Nyn simply imagine themselves on the roof of the storeroom where they found the BoW, or simply picture that same dusty room again after the first time?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was said he'd be born of the old blood and raised by the ancient. The old is the royal line of Andor and the ancient is the Two Rivers/Manetheren connection.

 

Just a correction, from TGH, chapter 8 (retrieved, with hyperlinks, from wot wiki) :

 

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.

 

I'm having trouble posting from my laptop. You are right, but I am too. In a way.

 

From tDR: "Blood of our blood mixed with the old blood, raised by an ancient blood not ours." So says Avi, anyway. The first quote you provided clearly labels the Aiel as the ancient and Manetheren as the old, while mine is as I originally said.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd like to think the Cauthon/Caar Thorin is a more likely possibility, considering that even before Rhudian, Mat has memories of the last days of Manetheren. 

 

I wonder how long it actually has been since the Two Rivers became 'forgotten' from the rest of the world. I would suggest about four centuries, based on my hazy memories of the books saying thats how long its been since they've seen queens guardsmen or tax collectors (it could just be four generations, which is anywhere from 20 to 50 years/or eighty-two hundred years).

 

http://www.wotsummary.com/files/map.jpg

I remember that one time when both Mat and Brigitte hang around in Ebou Dar, he slips and talks to her in Old Tongue and she says something like "One Moment you are First Lord of Manetheren another you are....". So here is the connection, unless it just one of the random memories that Aelfinn and Eelfinn put in his head to plug memory holes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mat makes the most sense and there is a decent amount of support for the idea. There is the pre-finn memory of ordering forward  Aemon's personnel bodyguard(Heart Guard) at the last battle of Manetheren, not sure who else would do that. We also have this:

 

SLEEPINGHOUR

In The Eye of the World, is Mat remembering the Old Tongue from his own past life or from his ancestors?

TEREZ

Good question. He seems to have confirmed Old Blood for the Old Tongue, but the Aemon memory?
FELIX PAX

That's what my belief is, Aemon. Mat Cauthon is the reborn soul of Aemon. Aemon's Old Tongue.
BRANDON SANDERSON

It isn't made clear. It could be either. The implication is his bloodline.
BRANDON SANDERSON

The Aemon connection is certainly implied strongly.

Edited by Suttree
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first person to ever speak in the Old Tongue was Mat. In EoTW when they were fleeing and ran into trollocs he shouted it out (Ch. The Caemlyn Road, pg 265 in paperback) and nobody seemed to know what he was saying. Egwene seems to think she understood it, but cannot remember what it meant (pg 271). Rand obviously does not have Manetheren blood, and I'm not too sure about Perrin either, but Mat and Egwene are for sure. I even think RJ meant for Mat to remember stuff on his own before he decided to drag the books on and introduce the Eelfinn and Aelfinn, but maybe not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first person to ever speak in the Old Tongue was Mat. In EoTW when they were fleeing and ran into trollocs he shouted it out (Ch. The Caemlyn Road, pg 265 in paperback) and nobody seemed to know what he was saying. Egwene seems to think she understood it, but cannot remember what it meant (pg 271). Rand obviously does not have Manetheren blood, and I'm not too sure about Perrin either, but Mat and Egwene are for sure. I even think RJ meant for Mat to remember stuff on his own before he decided to drag the books on and introduce the Eelfinn and Aelfinn, but maybe not.

That's a given.

And the memory he has right after waking up in the tower is the third time he is being associated with Manetheren.

You named the first from tEotW when he shouted the Manetheren battle cry.

The second is when he shouts it again while being healed in the Tower and Siuan says he was commanding soldiers.

Then of course, there is the whole complete fluency in the OT, even if subconsciously, that he exhibits on his 2 trips through the Finn Doorways.

 

Mat is either Aemon reborn, a direct descendant of him or both. Those ARE the only options. The link is undeniable.  

Edited by Finnssss
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...