questions about the seals

[9kindsofidiot]

Anyone remember when the last time the seals were mentioned. Does Rand have the Seals with him as of FoM? Is that what he went to retrieve in TOM chapter 15? Does Egwene know where they are and if not, how does she hope to stop Rand?

[yoniy0]

The last time was when someone attacked Dobraine and Bashere attempting to get at them. We don't actually know where they are, only that all surviving three are in Rand's hands somewhere (to the best of my recollection, Egwene doesn't know about the last one, the one Taim gave Rand, so theoretically she might believe it still hidden somewhere).

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

I forget or may e it wasn't mentioned, but did AS purposely hide the seals in different locations or were they lost? Of all the Amrylins titles and duties watcher of the seals seems to be far and away the most important. Great job of watching them...

[Selene's Shadow]

Why would Taim have given a seal to Rand?

Unless maybe he wants them to be broken..

[Agitel]

Why would Taim have given a seal to Rand?

Unless maybe he wants them to be broken..

 

It was a way to gain Rand's favor and trust. Maybe it didn't convince the raving lunatic in Rand's mind, but it was a gesture a sane man might appreciate. The Shadow was playing a long-term game.

[Selene's Shadow]

Why would Taim have given a seal to Rand?

Unless maybe he wants them to be broken..

 

It was a way to gain Rand's favor and trust. Maybe it didn't convince the raving lunatic in Rand's mind, but it was a gesture a sane man might appreciate. The Shadow was playing a long-term game.

Fair enough.

 

It just seems rather high risk to me. This is not some angreal we are talking about tbh. Rather this is the seal to the DO's prison. I can see the benefits but it seems like with any sense of foresight the negatives of Taim's action may have certainly outweighed those positives.

[bigdoug1971]

Fair enough.

 

 

 

It just seems rather high risk to me. This is not some angreal we are talking about tbh. Rather this is the seal to the DO's prison. I can see the benefits but it seems like with any sense of foresight the negatives of Taim's action may have certainly outweighed those positives.

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He gave it to him when they first met and Taim came to him because of the amnesty. He claimed it was given to him by a farmer and I think it may have been a "gift of trust" from Taim to show Rand he could rely on him.

[Agitel]

Why would Taim have given a seal to Rand?

Unless maybe he wants them to be broken..

 

It was a way to gain Rand's favor and trust. Maybe it didn't convince the raving lunatic in Rand's mind, but it was a gesture a sane man might appreciate. The Shadow was playing a long-term game.

Fair enough.

 

It just seems rather high risk to me. This is not some angreal we are talking about tbh. Rather this is the seal to the DO's prison. I can see the benefits but it seems like with any sense of foresight the negatives of Taim's action may have certainly outweighed those positives.

 

Moridin specifically saved Rand's life at Shadar Logoth and gave him advice in how to confront and kill another one of the Forsaken. The Seals are weakening anyway, and the goal was to manipulate the Dragon Reborn into a corner, not move through more ... er... conventional means.

[9kindsofidiot]

If the attack was the last mention, it has indeed been a long time since the seal's whereabouts have been mentioned. I just reread the Prologue again last night and it mentioned during Aviendha's scene that Rand went to Tear to retrieve something. That seems more likely to be the seals than what he retrieved in TOM before Maradon (which has been speculated to have been an angreal or a Well of some type).

[MasterAblar]

Does Rand even know about the seal Nyneave and Elayne found in Tanchico? He didn't back in CoT.

[Tyler Glembo]

 

Why would Taim have given a seal to Rand?

Unless maybe he wants them to be broken..

 

It was a way to gain Rand's favor and trust. Maybe it didn't convince the raving lunatic in Rand's mind, but it was a gesture a sane man might appreciate. The Shadow was playing a long-term game.

Fair enough.

 

It just seems rather high risk to me. This is not some angreal we are talking about tbh. Rather this is the seal to the DO's prison. I can see the benefits but it seems like with any sense of foresight the negatives of Taim's action may have certainly outweighed those positives.

I disagree. If Rand does nothing, the seal eventually becomes more and more brittle and breaks. Thus, the DO is free. If Rand breaks the seal, the DO is free. So Taim giving the seal to Rand means nothing to the DO who will unstopper the bore at some point regardless but does a lot for Taim gaining Rand's trust. Also, when did Taim go baddie? Wasn't he still a good guy back then?

[Selene's Shadow]

 

Why would Taim have given a seal to Rand?

Unless maybe he wants them to be broken..

 

It was a way to gain Rand's favor and trust. Maybe it didn't convince the raving lunatic in Rand's mind, but it was a gesture a sane man might appreciate. The Shadow was playing a long-term game.

Fair enough.

 

It just seems rather high risk to me. This is not some angreal we are talking about tbh. Rather this is the seal to the DO's prison. I can see the benefits but it seems like with any sense of foresight the negatives of Taim's action may have certainly outweighed those positives.

I disagree. If Rand does nothing, the seal eventually becomes more and more brittle and breaks. Thus, the DO is free. If Rand breaks the seal, the DO is free. So Taim giving the seal to Rand means nothing to the DO who will unstopper the bore at some point regardless but does a lot for Taim gaining Rand's trust. Also, when did Taim go baddie? Wasn't he still a good guy back then?

Then why is Rand so impassioned about breaking the seals? He seems to consider it a game winner and (though i understand that there were other reasons for getting the Aes Sedai and everyone else to FOM still) I think that there must be some deep reason for why the seals must be broken for Rand to defeat the DO. And of course if that reason is beneficial to Rand then it certainly is not beneficial to the DO and the forsaken/Taim.

 

Though it is possible that Moridin believes that he can use it for the good of the DO whilst Rand believes he can use it for the good of defeating the DO. 

 

And I also believe that Taim was always a darkfriend.. he may have been usurped/taken over by one of the forsaken but I would believe he was always on the Shadow's side.

[haplo333]

I don't think if the remaining seals are broken, the DO will break free. In the Shadow War, there were no seals to hold DO back but he could not be able to break free. So, it doesn't mean he will break free when the last seals are broken. However, his touch and control will be much stronger than before. We can safely assume that there will be some conditions to be met if he wants to be free. So, he wants Rand alive to gain his purposes during the course. Furthermore, Taim maybe gave Rand the seaL, because the DO thought the safest place for the seal is with Rand, while DO is getting ready for Tarmon Gaidon. When the time comes, he will be broken in either way. Rand breaks it or it will be broken because of weakness. Morevover; I do not think that Rand took the remaining seals with him in FOM, because everyone knows that the light siders gather in that place. In an attack he could lose one of the seals which causes him some significant problems such as losing control over DO before he is ready. (his touch over the world)

[Centauri25]

Haplo - good points all around. I really liked the point about the time when there was no seal at all on the Bore, and the world failed to end. That was not a short period.

[yoniy0]

The Bore has continuously grown since the day it was Drilled and until it was Sealed. There's no telling how close the DO is to breaking free once the Seals are broken; could be years, or it could be days. Nevertheless, it's not as if breaking them will end the world, that's true enough.

 

Regarding the two Seals from Tanchico, the Salidar AS sworn to Rand--and perhaps even Min--should know about them. Should, I say, because I really can't recall it ever being discussed. Hmm...

[haplo333]

The Bore has continuously grown since the day it was Drilled and until it was Sealed. There's no telling how close the DO is to breaking free once the Seals are broken; could be years, or it could be days. Nevertheless, it's not as if breaking them will end the world, that's true enough. Regarding the two Seals from Tanchico, the Salidar AS sworn to Rand--and perhaps even Min--should know about them. Should, I say, because I really can't recall it ever being discussed. Hmm...

 

But Brandon Sanderson said that the size of the bore remained in the same size (he was %95 sure)

[yoniy0]

But Brandon Sanderson said that the size of the bore remained in the same size (he was %95 sure)

Since it was Sealed, it has. Before that it grew (and will presumably continue to, once it's fully open again).

[haplo333]

@Yoniy0 you said that 'The Bore has continuously grown since the day it was Drilled and until it was Sealed' . Are we sure of this thing or you assume? Has RJ or BS told this in an interview??

[yoniy0]

It's based on The Strike at Shayol Ghul, but Brandon has acknowledged it by confirming (his answer is quoted above, if somewhat out of context) that "the Seals are the reason the Bore hasn't grown since the time of Sealing".

[KrisAnton]

When Demandred is in SG in LoC, he mentions that the bore has grown some since his awakening.

[yoniy0]

Yes, but Demandred is talking about the Seals that were gone by that time. He said it wasn't yet as wide as in the time of Sealing, at least.

[Agitel]

Then why is Rand so impassioned about breaking the seals? He seems to consider it a game winner and (though i understand that there were other reasons for getting the Aes Sedai and everyone else to FOM still) I think that there must be some deep reason for why the seals must be broken for Rand to defeat the DO. And of course if that reason is beneficial to Rand then it certainly is not beneficial to the DO and the forsaken/Taim.

 

Because the previous sealing wasn't a victory; it was a stalling tactic. For the past 3,500 years or so the Dark One has been able to touch the world, albeit in small ways, and his followers have been able to undermine and corrupt large parts of civilization. Rand wants to Heal the Bore, not just put a patch over it; the seals are just a patch. It's like if you had a massive wall to keep an enemy out and the wall was breached and you quickly barricaded it up. You don't just want to rebuild that haphazard barricade, you want to rebuild the wall as if it had never been breached, and you can't do that without clearing out the area.

 

If you want to imagine it as a Pattern, then imagine a tapestry that's been stretched and pulled so that the threads and weaving are all stretched out and coming undone in some places. The seals are like hastily sewn stitches pulling the weaves tight and holding it together, but they're a temporary relief. Rand wants to pull out those temporary stitches and pull repair the Pattern as if it had never been stretched out. Imagine the Dark One on the other side of that tapestry, trying to wiggle his fingers into any holes and rip them wider.

 

The only problem is that Rand doesn't seem (imo) to know how to rebuild the wall or pull the tapestry back together. All he knows is that the patches need to be taken out to do so.

[Kiriath Til Asdod]

Taim gave Rand the seals beacuse the DO wants the seals broken. Two prophecies come to mind "...and all that he has can be seized" & "...what hand shall grasp that fearful blade?" IMO callandor acts as a conduit by which the DO could potentially gain control of Rand perhaps even implant himself in Rand. Purely conjecture though.