Luckers... Official on Brandon

[Terez]

Terez, I think you nailed the coffin shut and then buried the corpse with that reply.

 

Speaking of which, I wonder if anyone has thought to exhume RJ to see if he's written anything. He said if they slipped a keyboard into his coffin he might be able to work something out...

[MarkDiLillo]

 

Honestly, what do some of you want us to do? Sit back and just pretend we live in candy land and act like nothing is wrong? Just theorize about something that may be a blatant error? Do you want everyone to just pretend like things are OK when they're not?

 

This is important and it's all that needs to be said:

 

Half the time we cannot even discuss theories because the new author has been so inconsistent that we honestly cannot tell if something is a clue or if it is just an oversight.

 

I would love if we could all just hold hands and pretend that everything was okay. I would love if we could all just sit back and theorize what is going to happen next. I just find it hard to theorize about dreadbanes and dreamshards when the reality is that they are simply poorly conceived plot devices used by the new author to plaster together a scene he envisioned. So ya...you're not the only one pissed off that the forums aren't the same. The rest of us are too.

Seriously Mark, it is that bad to, maybe, 50 people. Nothing I have read is anything near to the situation described above. I am just trying to come to some understanding of your position.

 

 

Those 50 people happen to be the ones that crank out 95% of the theories using evidence and examples to back up their thoughts.

 

If you want to understand where I'm coming from then go to the brandons work thread and read some of my posts there along with others that add to my positions.  It all comes down to the individual reader and what they enjoyed with the series.  As I've said before, if you can legitimately read Brandons books and have no issue with them whatsoever then I actually envy you.  I wish I could do the same.  I just can't because the world of WoT that I've read and enjoyed feels like its been shattered by someone who could have kept it intact if he really had put the effort into doing so.  I can't fault BS for not writing as well as RJ, but I can fault him for getting blood and bloody ashes wrong.  How many times has that saying appeared throughout the series?  Can you really sit back and think that the guy did a fantastic job making sure that his material fits in the world of WoT when he messes up something like that?  Everyone says that BS had such an impossible task that we should cut him some slack.  Was it really that impossible for him to open up a couple of the old books and reference his dialogue against some of RJ's source material?  Was it really that impossible for him to even one time look back and make sure that blood and bloody ashes was the same as RJ wrote it 100's of times previously?

 

And keep in mind, this is from a guy who is supposed to be ONE OF US.  He was a self proclaimed super fan of the series (and this is a major reason he is judged so harshly by some; if he had been more of an outsider then we would be more forgiving IMO).  Now let's take it into perspective here.  Blood and bloody ashes is a single oversight and by itself is really not a big deal.  I agree with that 100%.  But when we turn to the next page we find another small mistake...and then another one...and then another one.  After a couple we begin noticing even mistakes that we wouldn't have picked up on previously.  That's how it starts and that's how the world of WoT is shattered for the readers.  And this is really what is unforgivable.  Out of EVERYTHING in this admittedly impossible task that Brandon had in finishing this series, these little nitpicks are the small things that he should have gotten right and had no excuse to get wrong.

 

So how does this turn into gigantic threads discussing quality with some people very upset over what is perceived as a lack of quality?  It's really simple actually.  When Brandon messed up so many of the freebies - details that were already written by RJ and only required opening one of the original books to verify - how can we sit back and say that he tried his best to get the voice of Mat correct?  When Brandon simply couldn't spend the time to even reference RJ's original books, how much time do you think he spent on the hard stuff that we all agree sounds a bit off?

 

I've been around long enough to recognize a lack of real effort, and I also can recognize when someone just doesn't have the capabilities to accomplish something.  I can forgive Brandon for not having the literary talents that RJ had, but it's the lack of effort that really bothers me.  Did the guy give 100% effort into this project?  Yes, I think he did.  I think he worked very hard.  But there is a massive difference between 100% and 110%, and this project deserved 110% from him yet clearly did not get that extra bit of effort.  RJ gave 110% and Harriet entrusted Brandon to give his all towards finishing the guys professional legacy.

 

That's the crux of why I get upset and why I don't really have any mercy on the guy anymore after two books without improvement.

[Vambram]

Is Brandon Sanderson the same writer as Robert Jordan?   No.

 

Is Robert Jordan a better writer than Brandon Sanderson?  Yes.

 

Has Brandon Sanderson, with the help of Harriet and Team Jordan, written three best selling and very enjoyable WOT books to finish the series for all the fans of the WOT?   Yes.

[Suttree]

Has Brandon Sanderson, with the help of Harriet and Team Jordan, written three best selling and very enjoyable WOT books to finish the series for all the fans of the WOT? Yes.

I see you got that flux capacitor figured out Vambram. Don't hold back, tell us the ending! ;)

[Guest Yaver]

 

Has Brandon Sanderson, with the help of Harriet and Team Jordan, written three best selling and very enjoyable WOT books to finish the series for all the fans of the WOT? Yes.

I see you got that flux capacitor figured out Vambram. Don't hold back, tell us the ending! ;)

 

Surely there are no endings to the turning of the wheel?

[Terez]

It was not the ending. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was an ending...

[Suttree]

Well played...

[Vambram]

 

Has Brandon Sanderson, with the help of Harriet and Team Jordan, written three best selling and very enjoyable WOT books to finish the series for all the fans of the WOT? Yes.

I see you got that flux capacitor figured out Vambram. Don't hold back, tell us the ending! ;)

 

*grins*

 

AMOL is fantastic and the ending of the book is very satisfying.    ;)

[skalors3]

@Suttree I happened to love CoT.

 

@MarkD When I get to a computer I'll respond.

[MarkDiLillo]

@Suttree I happened to love CoT.

 

@MarkD When I get to a computer I'll respond.

 

Or just shoot me a PM if you want

[Sid]

@Mark

That bolded section in your post awhile back makes me irritated too.  You simply can't trust anything from the text like you could before.  The possible theorizing based on TGS and ToM is severely handicapped by not knowing whether something is foreshadowing or a mistake.  It can still be done, though.

 

As for Bloody Ashes, I thought like pretty much everyone that it was just a foolish oversight, but apparently it was done on purpose.  From what I heard Brandon wanted to have certain parts of the language change or evolve to something shorter, or more modern, or something.  It's utterly baffling to me why he wanted that for someone else's series, but there it is.  The problem with the execution of his idea is that it suddenly just started happening out of nowhere.  Nobody looked at people funny for saying it the first time (or react like it was different), it didn't start from one person and spread from there, it was completely inorganically implemented. 

Once he helped her to her feet, she looked at the hallway, at Vanin with his blood-smeared face, and the women lying where they had fallen, and she grimaced. "Oh, Light!" she breathed. "Oh, blood and bloody flaming ashes!" Despite the situation, he gave a start. It was not just that he had never expected to hear those words out of her mouth; they seemed peculiar, as if she knew the sounds but not the meanings. Somehow, they made her sound younger than she looked.

People all over the world just started saying their likely centuries-old expressions different than before out of the blue.  The result is that he actually went out of his way to create something that jars a reader from the flow of the story, which I'm sure wasn't his intention, but really, he should have known better.

 

Don't get me wrong, it sounds like he put a ton of work into finishing the books, and gave a lot of effort.  It would take a huge amount of effort to make even a semi-coherent ending to someone else's series.  I just think some of the effort was put into things that just didn't need to be changed from the status quo.

[Manscher]

@Mark

That bolded section in your post awhile back makes me irritated too.  You simply can't trust anything from the text like you could before.  The possible theorizing based on TGS and ToM is severely handicapped by not knowing whether something is foreshadowing or a mistake.  It can still be done, though.

 

And if he had done everything perfect, people would still doubt. Cause this isn't RJ writting.

 

Ask yourself this, if those things you think might be a mistake, but aren't sure of, was written by RJ, would you ever doubt it?

 

RJ had the wonderful advantage of BS, that it is his world, he could pretty much write anything he wanted, and if anybody called him out on it being a possible mistake, he could easily fit it into a future book, explaining exactly why it wasn't a mistake.

[Terez]

 

And if he had done everything perfect, people would still doubt. Cause this isn't RJ writting.

 

 

Not true. People like me and Luckers were, if anything, overly supportive of Brandon's writing after TGS and did everything in our power to control the criticism on the forums. We would have been happy with a modest improvement in each book. Instead TOM got worse.

[Sid]

And if he had done everything perfect, people would still doubt. Cause this isn't RJ writting.

No, I wouldn't doubt unless there was a reason to doubt.  I didn't want to, but was forced to.

Ask yourself this, if those things you think might be a mistake, but aren't sure of, was written by RJ, would you ever doubt it?

Of course.  If anything doesn't make sense it has to be scrutinized to find out why.  The difference is that before, there was usually some explanation for it already or one that became clear later, or at the very least someone noticing that 'this is impossible!'.  Now, things directly contradict things that are known.

RJ had the wonderful advantage of BS, that it is his world, he could pretty much write anything he wanted, and if anybody called him out on it being a possible mistake, he could easily fit it into a future book, explaining exactly why it wasn't a mistake.

Care to provide an example of this happening?

[Suttree]

 

 

And if he had done everything perfect, people would still doubt. Cause this isn't RJ writting.

 

 

Not true. People like me and Luckers were, if anything, overly supportive of Brandon's writing after TGS and did everything in our power to control the criticism on the forums. We would have been happy with a modest improvement in each book. Instead TOM got worse.

This. Think that goes for most of us...

[Agitel]

 

RJ had the wonderful advantage of BS, that it is his world, he could pretty much write anything he wanted, and if anybody called him out on it being a possible mistake, he could easily fit it into a future book, explaining exactly why it wasn't a mistake.

 

Care to provide an example of this happening?

 

Without taking an opinion yet in this argument, I don't think what I'm about to say is that controversial (so long as it's understood as a general statement). If RJ wrote anything unexpected or new, it was taken as additional information -- not contradictory information -- and an evolution of a character or plot. When Brandon does the same, it automatically comes with a question mark. That's not to say we shouldn't be skeptical, there is reason to be in some circumstances. It just comes with the package of a new author.

[The Fisher King]

COT was a good book. Time has increased my love for it so much. When it came out I was stunned by the lack of time that advanced (though ACOS covered only 10 days) and the lack of dialogue (much witty dialogue was in ACOS and WH, which bookended POD - which I found a similar style to COT and also. enjoyed). COT was a little extreme - even for WOT - in pages of description, but it was good. Two of the most moving moments s in the entire series (for me) happened in COT. Mat shooting a woman in the back and Perrin torturing that Aiel.

 

 

Fish

[Manscher]

Care to provide an example of this happening?

How would I be able to provide an example? We don't know if any of the things we've found odd or questioned, was intentional or a mistake. Only RJ knew.

 

And as Agitel points out, the purpose of the statement, wasn't to claim such a thing ever happened, but rather that BS is in an unfavourable position from the start, as he is not the original author.

 

An example of that is Cadsuane and Tam, people claim it's completely out of character for Cadsuane to react as she did, and yes under normal circumstances that is correct. In this situation however, her last gambit to save Rand just went up in flames because Tam couldn't do as told. She is under extreme pressure because of this. And when somebody suddenly don't do as exactly as told, which is a thing she expects from people, she snaps. It's a perfectly normal human behaviour to act out of character under such circumstances. But for some reason people see Cadsuane as some sort of infallible creature, above humanity and basic emotions.

[The Fisher King]

Luckers is arguably the only bigger Cads fan in the whole wide world than I am and I just wanted to say that the above post probably features the best defense of Cad's actions with Tam that I have ever seen.

 

I still disagree though :)

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

 But for some reason people see Cadsuane as some sort of infallible creature, above humanity and basic emotions.

 

Leave off with the straw man Mansch. There have been a number of debates on the topic, reams of evidence given as to why it is out of character and no one has come remotely close to taking that stance on the topic.

 

Regardless the far more pertinent post highlighting the bottom line on this topic was Terez's response above.

[Manscher]

 

 

 But for some reason people see Cadsuane as some sort of infallible creature, above humanity and basic emotions.

 

Leave off with the straw man Mansch. There have been a number of debates on the topic, reams of evidence given as to why it is out of character and no one has come remotely close to taking that stance on the topic.

 

Regardless the far more pertinent post highlighting the bottom line on this topic was Terez's response above.

No, there's been tons of debate over her being out of character in general in the book, which is not what I'm defending. What I'm defending is her specific action at that very moment. You seem to refuse to accept that Cadsuane is at her core, still a human being, that reacts humanly. Under normal circumstances, she wouldn't strike out like that, because she knows better. But every human being have a breaking point, where sense, logic and regular behaviour just goes through the window and you do things you wouldn't normally do.

 

 

Soldiers gets put under a lot of stress and pressure from day one, as a way of pushing this limit, to make you capable of handling more of it, but it doesn't make that breaking point disappear, it just gives you more endurance. It's very much still there, which is why soldiers get drilled to do the most basic thing over and over again Suttree. It's to make sure that when it really boils over and the stress and pressure becomes immense, they are still capable of performing these tasks, because it's become instinctual for them to do so.

[Suttree]

As I've said before leave off with the straw man. I've never said or implied any such thing in relation to Cads and I am not letting this thread get side tracked now. Revive one of the old ones if you want to continue and refresh yourself with the actual points I made.

[fionwe1987]

 

An example of that is Cadsuane and Tam, people claim it's completely out of character for Cadsuane to react as she did, and yes under normal circumstances that is correct. In this situation however, her last gambit to save Rand just went up in flames because Tam couldn't do as told. She is under extreme pressure because of this. And when somebody suddenly don't do as exactly as told, which is a thing she expects from people, she snaps. It's a perfectly normal human behaviour to act out of character under such circumstances. But for some reason people see Cadsuane as some sort of infallible creature, above humanity and basic emotions.

 

 

Except, this defense expects us to believe that in more than 300 years, Cadsuane has never had someone not do as they're told. Based on her actions in the previous books, people not doing as they're told is like candy to Cadsuane. She thrives in those situations.

 

That said, there's a valid argument to be made from the angle that she was basically seeing the failure of her last hope of turning the Dragon Reborn, and hence saving the world. That's certainly bound to increase the pressure, and perhaps explains her action with Tam. And I think even Cadsuane's most ardent supporter is going to be okay with that.

 

But that's not, I suspect, what people are objecting to. Its the way things were handled. A few minutes before this scene, Cadsuane schools Beldiene for being rude and contemptuous of a non-channeler (Min). Then a few moments later, she "bullies" a non-channeler herself. The tone is not "woman snaps under severe pressure". It is "hypocritical hag got what she deserves", which, added to Brandon's own problems with this character, paints a picture.

[Suttree]

 

But that's not, I suspect, what people are objecting to. Its the way things were handled. A few minutes before this scene, Cadsuane schools Beldiene for being rude and contemptuous of a non-channeler (Min). Then a few moments later, she "bullies" a non-channeler herself. The tone is not "woman snaps under severe pressure". It is "hypocritical hag got what she deserves", which, added to Brandon's own problems with this character, paints a picture.

Solid.

[skalors3]

@Fionwe1987 I disagree with Suttree's comment. You have two different circumstances. She isn't upset that Min is a non-channeler and being "bullied" (which she wasn't). She is upset because the woman is treating Min like she is a moron who is in over her head. Now, if she had just scolded Cads and Cads turned the other cheek, I may agree with your analysis. However, I know many people who can be calm and collected when acting as a mediator and blow up when they themselves are pushed. I feel that you made a poor connection to seperate circumstances.