Combat Skills; Egwene vs. Nynaeve (no ter/sa angreal)

[Emily_Sedai]

I agree that Egween has the edge in dexterity and the other areas, however that doesn't necessarily mean that she would win in a confrontation.

 

Props should be going out to Tal for winning in an intelligent way, however I don't think that shows a major weakness in Nyn's technique. Now again, this was only this particular example.

[Nightstrike]

So we are talking hypotheticals now? Why don't we start throwing out "what ifs" concerning what happens if Mogi used more than just her strength in that arm wrestle match with Nyn?

That she didn't is the "what if she didn't". That it would matter for Egwene is "what if". That Egwene as skilled as Talaan is also a "what if". That Nynaeve didn't learn from her training with Talaan and the windfinders is another "what if she didn't".

[elric]

few remark about Taleen:

 

a. Taleen is 19 year old, about if not older then Eggy and Elaine

 

b. Taleen entire family is channelers, mother /aunt /cousins /grandmother.. and ALL of tm reached HIGH position as channelers.

 

c. Taleen had much much more rigorious training then the ordinary WF/AS, and probably harder then the training  all the 3 wondergirls got, such hard training that she a SEA FALK was driven to flea into the LAND away from the sea, the greatest sacrifice in her culture/upbringing. feel free to read her conversation with Nyn after the duel.

 

d. it was clearly stated that Nyn fatigue was affecting her.

 

so why u claim Taleen is inexperience bumpkin who should loose ???

 

Taleen is a TOP TIER chaneler, from a family of atleast above ordinary channelers who grow up between channelers and was train HARSHLY from a young age.

and she fought a tired Nyn.

 

there no shame or any indication for lack of skill in Nyn loosing.to her.

 

and since we DONT KNOW how dexterious is Taleen using this fight to say Nyn lost -> Nyn have bad dexterity is simply a bad and incorrect argument.

[Nightstrike]

Yeah, and she was drilled by others in shielding before Nynaeve. Other days.

[fionwe1987]

few remark about Taleen:

 

a. Taleen is 19 year old, about if not older then Eggy and Elaine

 

b. Taleen entire family is channelers, mother /aunt /cousins /grandmother.. and ALL of tm reached HIGH position as channelers.

 

c. Taleen had much much more rigorious training then the ordinary WF/AS, and probably harder then the training  all the 3 wondergirls got, such hard training that she a SEA FALK was driven to flea into the LAND away from the sea, the greatest sacrifice in her culture/upbringing. feel free to read her conversation with Nyn after the duel.

 

d. it was clearly stated that Nyn fatigue was affecting her.

 

so why u claim Taleen is inexperience bumpkin who should loose ???

 

Taleen is a TOP TIER chaneler, from a family of atleast above ordinary channelers who grow up between channelers and was train HARSHLY from a young age.

and she fought a tired Nyn.

 

there no shame or any indication for lack of skill in Nyn loosing.to her.

 

and since we DONT KNOW how dexterious is Taleen using this fight to say Nyn lost -> Nyn have bad dexterity is simply a bad and incorrect argument.

First of all, her name is TalAAn, not TalEEn. Making the same mistake a million times is incredibly grating.

 

Secondly, TalAAn has a lot of experience, and a lot of training... in the Sea Folk way of channeling. Which includes incredible skill in making weaves to affect the weather, and absolutely no skills in any other region. Which is precisely why they wanted Aes Sedai teachers. They had never known how to shield before, which is why they were so suspicious of Nynaeve's claims on shielding. TalAAn had zero knowledge of shielding and the myriad of other AS weaves till she was taught. Once she mastered it, she defeated Nynaeve twice in a row, and that was the end of that. 

[Nightstrike]

Talaan remains separate from Egwene. What you just said is your own interpretation, since it's not stated as such. I refer back to reply #305. Nothing changes those facts.

 

She was drilled day on end (several days, several teachers). Nynaeve can learn, too, she only needs to be taught something once.

[Emily_Sedai]

So wait, Talaan can master a weave after seeing it a few times, but Nyn can't by memorizing it once?

[Thrasymachus]

Yes, Nynaeve could beat Egwene, if she trained.  She hasn't, so she probably wouldn't.

[Nightstrike]

Nynave has trained with Moggy and Talaan. I don't know if Egwene has had any similar experiences. I do think the difference in strength is so great that it would make no difference after the training that Nynaeve's got (even if Egwene would get the same one).

[fionwe1987]

So wait, Talaan can master a weave after seeing it a few times, but Nyn can't by memorizing it once?

 

Since when does memorizing equal mastering? Take initiating links, a very basic Aes Sedai skill. Nynaeve clearly knows how to do it. But she also clearly sucks at it. Its because she carelessly memorizes it, and shows no interest in perfecting her technique. Which is why she herself says:

 

 

Often they wanted her to teach things she did not know as well as others—too often, things she barely knew at all, she admitted reluctantly; she had not really had much training in the Tower—and whenever she fumbled in the slightest, Renaile positively delighted in making her sweat.

 

If seeing a weave once and memorizing it is all there is to channeling well, then Nynaeve cannot possibly "barely know" some things. And she would not fumble at them if memorizing them was enough.

[Emily_Sedai]

You said that Tal had mastered shielding while practicing with Nynaeve... But the earlier discussion said weaves had to be practiced to be mastered. So only a few hours of practice is required?

 

[Emily_Sedai]

But a shield weave can be mastered after a few hours of practicing? If that's the case, then Nyn wins hands down because she has mastered shielding while practicing with Talaan.

[fionwe1987]

You said that Tal had mastered shielding while practicing with Nynaeve... But the earlier discussion said weaves had to be practiced to be mastered. So only a few hours of practice is required?

 

But a shield weave can be mastered after a few hours of practicing? If that's the case, then Nyn wins hands down because she has mastered shielding while practicing with Talaan.

 

Are you being dense for the heck of it? Let me simplify things for you. Person A can copy any karate move the moment she sees it. She won't do it perfectly, she won't be very deft at executing it, but she can do it. Now A is put in charge of teaching it to person B. B has never used the move before, and is learning it the first time. They practice the move by dueling. The first several times, A wins out, because B has never done the weave, but A at least know it. B is berated by her superiors and given incentive to perform better. Slowly, B gets the hang of it, and starts improvising on it and performing it as it needs to be. Meanwhile, A is still stuck doing it as she did before, because she's had no incentive to improve, has had no reason to alter her technique. Suddenly, B wins the duel, and A is totally thrown off. Now A put her mind to it, and tries to improve on her technique. B, however, is ahead of her. Having worked on it all this time, and being in the habit of working on her skills (whatever they are), she once again beats A.

 

Understood?

[Cybertrolloc]

No, because it's a stupid analogy.

 

The answer is realistically we can make up any bullshit we want about Talaan because she's not coming back to the story anyway. So, Demandred in disguise?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Let's keep it civil please, we are all reasonable people here. (and even if we aren't the same still applies - although I am not suggesting this about anyone) 

[Emily_Sedai]

No need to be snippy because I disagree with your point, and your example is missing a few elements. They weren't practicing he same karate move. They were practicing karate as a whole in my opinion, and Tal used a new method to beat Nyn. Nyn then went to counter that move in the next round, but the very sly and frankly smart Talaan recognized that Nyn would be ready for he same trick, so she used a new trick instead. If anything, she just showed that she can be crafty, not a master of shielding In eithe case, as you said, Nyn improved as well through the practice.

 

In either case, I still think the example of Tal vs. Nyn is a poor example of showing that dexterity wins in a duel. If anything, I think it shows that intelligence and foresight will win.

[Cybertrolloc]

I suppose there's a way we could all be right. I have the first ed hardcovers of APoD and WH, two of the worst editted books in the series. I can go back later and compare quotes to my books (a day or two), but I don't think something this minor (relevant Talaan passages and hints) would have been revised much if at all outside spelling/grammar.

[Knivy]

Fionwe, could you clarify your exact position on a duel between Nyn and Eggy?

[Suttree]

In either case, I still think the example of Tal vs. Nyn is a poor example of showing that dexterity wins in a duel. If anything, I think it shows that intelligence and foresight will win.

Please just stop with this no dexterity winning the duel. It is explicit in the scene that Talaan is very deft with her weaves and when Nyn tries to be as dexterous she loses out. This is backed up by the numerous times throughout the text in which it is referenced how rough of a hand she has.

 

WH Ch. 12

 

 

 

Channeling, she met Talaan's weave more dexterously, and without so much force. The girl smiled at her uncertainly. Thinking Nynaeve would not be distracted by extraneous flows of Air this time, was she? Talaan's weave began to curl around hers, and she nimbly spun her own to catch it. She would be ready when the woman produced her flows of Air. Or maybe not Air, this time. Nothing dangerous surely. This was practice. Only, Talaan's flow of Spirit did not complete that curl, and Nynaeve's swung wide while Talaan's struck straight at her and latched on. Once again, saidar winked out of her, and bonds of Air snapped her arms to her sides, fastened her knees.

Lastly since people seem so keen to claim Nynaeve has studied and learned all aspects of channeling now, rounding out her general skills and knowledge up to Egwene's level it really shouldn't be hard to give us examples from the text correct? There has not been one shred of evidence provided to show that is the case.

[fionwe1987]

Fionwe, could you clarify your exact position on a duel between Nyn and Eggy?

 

I'm simply going to repost my conclusion from the first post I made in this thread. My position hasn't changed:

 

So... which of the two would win? That depends, really. In an out and out shielding match, barring any shielding Talents that would add to either side, Nynaeve would eventually win. But that kind of combat rarely happens, with good reason. Its intensive on strength alone, and not sustainable forever. In a more normal combat, the outcome is less predictable. Neither will wipe the floor with the other, but Egwene knows more, and practices more, has more skill and has greater dexterity. Nynaeve has somewhat more strength. Based on RJ's comment, especially, I'd currently give the edge to Egwene. If Nynaeve cleans up her act, and learns more, then things get really interesting. But I really don't see a point coming where combat between these two will be a foregone conclusion. They're both resourceful and tough, and neither is lacking in the strength department. In the end, it boils down to who displays more skill, better strategy and displays quicker reflexes.

[Knivy]

Thank you, from the tone of the thread it seemed like you were saying Eggy would wipe the floor with Nyn.  I apologize for the misunderstanding.

 

As for the subject, in a non-lethal fight, Nyn has the upper hand.  If its to the death, Nyn wouldnt even try.  Eggy wouldnt hesitate if she thought it was to her or her causes benefit.

 

However, We have no direct comparison between Nyn and Eggy's skill.  Cads and Eggy's AS have different standards, Cads's are most definitely higher, but how high is the question.  We also have no demonstrations that I recall of Eggy in 1v1 combat, and as Andre the Giant tells us, "You see, you use different moves when you're fighting half a dozen people than when you only have to worry about one."

[Knivy]

Is it possible to edit Posts anymore?  My edit button isnt working..  Is anyone else having trouble just getting the page to load?

[elric]

Knivi

but u have to remember -> Nyn is not left handed as well :)))))) 

 

summerise:

 

;et me summerise (again) the info we have

 

Eggy:

*.very skiled

*.very dexterois

*. rediscovered AoL abilities

*.not focus on channeling -> was learning -> dreraming + politic + history + etiqutte + spending LOT of time acting as Ameralin + spending LOT of time practicing politic and Dais Daimer

*.not a warrior by nature -> (tried to quote but couldnt paste in) Eggy own perception of herself is as the embodiment of Amyrlin -> she accepted that Mess had Amyrlin traits -> and those traits are :

administrator/ planer/ person of action who dont loosr her head and keep doing what needed

*. never been in any duel outside of Tar

*. during her battle in Tar she used tactic Nyn developed

*. shown very poor skill in healing (shown not speculated by vogue remarks)

 

Nyn

*. 2nd most strongest channeler known in the WORLD (not counting forsaken)

*. able not to memorise but to master weave by simply seeing it -> she is able not only to copy the weave but to modify and innovate it after seeing it once

*. UNKNOWN dexterity

*. duel experience against EQUAL opponents

*. combat experience

*. discovered abilities tought impossible even in AoL (a strong claim can be made that she would be able to prevent the breaking, if she was born few millenia earlier)

*. warrior by nature:

nothing motivate her more then  competition

in the Tar meeting when Eggy discovered they been eavsdropped Nyn charged in , while Ely (who we  all agrea is very brave and quite reckless) floow more carefully

in Tar battle with Mess , Eggy commented that holding Nyn away from battle is extremly hard thing to do.

*. passed a Testing that was rigged to fail her and that was declared as the most harsh one of the oldest and more experienced sitter had ever seen.

*. proove great SPEED and SKILL during her test , doing EVERY one of the 100 weave with speed and skill, and considering  her state during the end of the test it say ALOT.

*. dedicate most of her time to learn how to channel

[Emily_Sedai]

 

In either case, I still think the example of Tal vs. Nyn is a poor example of showing that dexterity wins in a duel. If anything, I think it shows that intelligence and foresight will win.

Please just stop with this no dexterity winning the duel. It is explicit in the scene that Talaan is very deft with her weaves and when Nyn tries to be as dexterous she loses out. This is backed up by the numerous times throughout the text in which it is referenced how rough of a hand she has.

 

WH Ch. 12

 

 

 

 

 

 

Suttree, your *opinion* is that dexterity won the duel with Talaan.  I have a different opinion, that I think I backed up pretty well in terms of my viewpoint.  Talaan, in my *opinion*, won by out-thinking and out-playing Nyn.  Nyn tried to respond to the technique Tal used in the second round by expecting her to do the same thing.  Tal didn't, and instead, went straight at Nyn and won the third round.  She duped Nyn into thinking she was doing the same thing.  Once again, in my opinion, this *particular* example of dexterity being a major factor is a poor example and shouldn't be given much weight.  The paragraph you posted clearly shows that Nyn was preparing to defend herself against the *exact* same technique that Tal used in the second round...  and that was her mistake.  She underestimated Tal, and hence, lost. 

[Suttree]

Yes, just continue ignore adjectives like "deft", "nimbly" and "dexterously". It does you no favors in the debate and shows a shocking capacity to ignore whats explicitly written in order to hold to a point mind. If that's how you feel you wish to proceed by all means continue to dig your hole deeper. I'm starting to see some striking similarities in posters on the other side of the debate

 

@Elric

 

There was literally so much that is totally false with your summary above but ill start with this one. What on earth makes you think Nynaeve can not only copy but actually master a weave on sight?