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The 3rd age


Hyronimus
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Hi all!

I've been muling over this topic which has been touch on often; there was a thread which didn't have quite the focus i was thinking of so...

 

Basicly what do you consider essential to this age? By essential I mean what will happen again in the next third age.

 

 

One thing I have heard is that by the time the 2nd age comes again the Aiel will need to return to the way of the leaf but it seems that the way of the leaf is not what defines the Aiel so much as they are dedicated, for example the travelling people kept the way of the leaf but gave up on their task for the AS.

 

this implies that they Aiel won't return to the way of the leaf but will find a new cause (as has been speculated)

 

Where I got interested was the moment in the prologue where Rand was still considering how the DO might be dealt with...so far we have excepted that the bore must be closed and the prison put in the same place that it was in the 2nd age, but why? One of my favourte theories was that Callador will be the new prison (see all that is can be contained). Not mine unfortunately.

 

My point is there is no reason to think that the prison must be the same in this age that it will be in the 2nd age come again.

 

So what do we suppose in this age is essential?

 

There needs to be a dragon soul. There needs to be two other tav'eren with him.

 

i believe the prophesies are 'essential', so there will be thirteen evil characters operating for the DO, there will be a gambeler, a wolf king with a hammer.

 

Sorry for the lack of detail but this is a pretty open topic, but I think Itwill help speculation on what must happen in the final book if we consider what needs to happen. for this age and the next.

 

Why is my space bar deleting?

 

cheers back with more detail later!

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Without really knowing what happens in a lot of other ages, there are just too many assumptions. A few of which I will make now.

 

In the wheel, the DO gets two big punches to try to go for the KO, the 2nd and 3rd age.

 

The essentials for the third age are probably a cataclysm to begin the age, a prolonged societal decline, continuous Shadow infiltration in every major organization, the heralded rebirth of the Dragon soul, and a big dust-up and/or cataclysm to end the age.

 

I do not really know if multiple tav'eren are needed or if that is this 3rd age specific, as well as the number of adversaries, although I think an Ishamael/Moridin type adversary probably is essential.

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Without really knowing what happens in a lot of other ages, there are just too many assumptions. A few of which I will make now.

 

In the wheel, the DO gets two big punches to try to go for the KO, the 2nd and 3rd age.

 

The essentials for the third age are probably a cataclysm to begin the age, a prolonged societal decline, continuous Shadow infiltration in every major organization, the heralded rebirth of the Dragon soul, and a big dust-up and/or cataclysm to end the age.

 

I do not really know if multiple tav'eren are needed or if that is this 3rd age specific, as well as the number of adversaries, although I think an Ishamael/Moridin type adversary probably is essential.

 

This is pretty much my opinion. In addition, even if the Pattern needs an Aiel-like people to become the Dragon's primary army, there's no guarantee that it will be the same ethnic group, or even that they will meet the same parameters. People from the desert? Formerly non-violent? That's not entirely necessary, and I think the structure of an Age is far more general than that.

Edited by Agitel
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Interseting topic -

 

The prophecies of the dragon are considered guidelines, this must happen for the good guys to win. If that's based on what had to happen every other 3rd age for the dragon to win, then they could be considered fixed points for each age in which the Light wins.

Other viewings, such as foretellings, Min, dreamers would then be specific to this age.

 

As for the Aiel, I have a problem assuming that the aiel, or any group would survive in any recognisable form through 7 ages (ignoring Avi's visions). I think it more likely that each group we see now has its time then dies back and replaced by new ones - but some of those new groupw will perform the same funstion as some of our 'original' groups - ninaed by Agitel

 

I'm not sure how my 2 views mesh together, but somehow in my head they do.

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The prophecies of the dragon are considered guidelines, this must happen for the good guys to win. If that's based on what had to happen every other 3rd age for the dragon to win, then they could be considered fixed points for each age in which the Light wins.

Other viewings, such as foretellings, Min, dreamers would then be specific to this age.

I wonder why would the prophecies be always the same, actually? Different Pattern requires different prophecies. And majority of them was written in the 3rd Age.

 

By the way, do you think Rand will ever say aomething like that or is it just poetic licence? :)

the CoT ending:

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,

We ran to the sounds of the thunder.

We danced among the lightning bolts,

and tore the world asunder.

 

- Anonymous fragment of a poem believed written near the end of the previous Age,

known by some as the Third Age. Sometimes attributed to the Dragon Reborn.

He could say that at the FoM meeting (Mat: "I see you've became a poet as well... Ah, and speak for yourself, I haven't tore anything!"), but it sounds more like the words after TG (which I don't think he'll survive)... probably to Loial.

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The prophecies of the dragon are considered guidelines, this must happen for the good guys to win. If that's based on what had to happen every other 3rd age for the dragon to win, then they could be considered fixed points for each age in which the Light wins.

Other viewings, such as foretellings, Min, dreamers would then be specific to this age.

I wonder why would the prophecies be always the same, actually? Different Pattern requires different prophecies. And majority of them was written in the 3rd Age.

 

 

You're probably right, just trying to think through reasons that the prophecies of the dragon are considered guidelines and don't actually have to happen, whereas things like dreaming and Mins viewings are more traditional in the way they actually happen.

 

Their are too many specific references though, Dragonmount, Stone of Tear are unlikely to survive 7 ages, although People of the dragon possibly would, just probably not the Aiel.

 

 

By the way, do you think Rand will ever say aomething like that or is it just poetic licence? :)

the CoT ending:

We rode on the winds of the rising storm,

We ran to the sounds of the thunder.

We danced among the lightning bolts,

and tore the world asunder.

 

- Anonymous fragment of a poem believed written near the end of the previous Age,

known by some as the Third Age. Sometimes attributed to the Dragon Reborn.

He could say that at the FoM meeting (Mat: "I see you've became a poet as well... Ah, and speak for yourself, I haven't tore anything!"), but it sounds more like the words after TG (which I don't think he'll survive)... probably to Loial.

 

Lol

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The biggest defining aspects of the 3rd Age were (i) the presence of the taint on saidin, (ii) Ishamael's imperfect sealing and (iii) the gradually weakening seals that are coming to define the end-Age event. Without (i), there would have been no breaking and the 3rd Age would have been unrecognizable to what it is now. Without (iii) the prophecies would all be different and things would obviously be quite different at this point. Not sure if (ii) is strictly required, but if Ishy were fully sealed things would be much better off for the Light right now as there would have been a much less damagingTrolloc wars (if any), no Seanchan and Artur Hawkwing may have left Randland unified.

 

Also, think back to Moridin's characterization of the Fisher (i.e., Rand), which is presumed to be a board-game remnant based on Rand's previous 3rd age incarnation. The Fisher is shown with a bandage over his eyes and a wounded side... so... the Ages may actually be quite similar with much more subtle differences.

 

That being said, assuming the Dark One has any memory at all, the Third Age would need to be different enough so the Dark One can't simply tell his surrogates precisely what's going to happen. Although, some of the Dark One's somewhat strange priorities (e.g., the no-kill order on Rand, not authorizing Halima / Arangar to simply mass assassinate Aes Sedai, etc.) may be based on the various ways he's lost in previous 3rd Ages, which actually triggers some of the inter-3rd-Age changes as a ta-veren response to the Dark One's attempt to manipulate events using his knowledge of history.

Edited by Sentinel78
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yea sentinel78 what you said makes a lot of sense with the Dark One not issuing certain orders or not allowing the forsaken to kill certain people because it led to failure in previous 3rd ages. Like when people are like why didnt the forsaken just destroy city after city etc it could be that they have done it in previous third ages but didnt work and completely back fired.

 

But to the original question

The dragon reborn is essential

The taint on Saidin

The white tower or some version of with only women Chanellers

Imperfect seal on the bore (this might be combined with the taint

the blacksmith and gambler

 

the biggest one could be:

 

CALLANDOR

it is the sign that the dragon has been reborn and depending on the last book could be a way to seal the bore

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yea sentinel78 what you said makes a lot of sense with the Dark One not issuing certain orders or not allowing the forsaken to kill certain people because it led to failure in previous 3rd ages. Like when people are like why didnt the forsaken just destroy city after city etc it could be that they have done it in previous third ages but didnt work and completely back fired.

 

But to the original question

The dragon reborn is essential

The taint on Saidin

The white tower or some version of with only women Chanellers

Imperfect seal on the bore (this might be combined with the taint

the blacksmith and gambler

 

the biggest one could be:

 

CALLANDOR

it is the sign that the dragon has been reborn and depending on the last book could be a way to seal the bore

 

You know, they just might be important. When Ishy is talking to Mat in a dream, Mat picks up the figure that represents him, and Ishy says something like "So that's who you are." It could be because he actually knows what they look like and a lot about their personalities by that point, but the one with Perrin had a wolf, and that was back when all that was just getting started, and not everybody knows about the whole wolfbrother thing. It might be that somehow Ishy knew, or had some idea, of what kind of people he was going to be up against in the new age. That information would probably have come from the DO, if he remembers past ages, or from wherever Ishy gets his other outlandish information (memories?), so it could be that the Mat and Perrin type characters always have to be there, too.

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Yes, it sounds reasonable that DO would remember this turning's failures and try to avoid them next time. But I wonder about Sha'rah - it is ancient and seems to suggest that the Fisher King is a constant motive. So... does the Shadow always wound the Dragon? And does he always have a period of blindness? One thing is sure: the fight for his soul is always fierce.

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what about fain then he is only spunned out by the pattern for this specific age?? Maybe, Tarmon Gaidon is called 'Last battle' only for this age. Previous Tarmon Gaidons in every 3 ages without him were temporary solution until this specific third age. I assume he will be the key of endless wars between shadow and light in this age.

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yea sentinel78 what you said makes a lot of sense with the Dark One not issuing certain orders or not allowing the forsaken to kill certain people because it led to failure in previous 3rd ages. Like when people are like why didnt the forsaken just destroy city after city etc it could be that they have done it in previous third ages but didnt work and completely back fired.

 

But to the original question

The dragon reborn is essential

The taint on Saidin

The white tower or some version of with only women Chanellers

Imperfect seal on the bore (this might be combined with the taint

the blacksmith and gambler

 

the biggest one could be:

 

CALLANDOR

it is the sign that the dragon has been reborn and depending on the last book could be a way to seal the bore

 

You know, they just might be important. When Ishy is talking to Mat in a dream, Mat picks up the figure that represents him, and Ishy says something like "So that's who you are." It could be because he actually knows what they look like and a lot about their personalities by that point, but the one with Perrin had a wolf, and that was back when all that was just getting started, and not everybody knows about the whole wolfbrother thing. It might be that somehow Ishy knew, or had some idea, of what kind of people he was going to be up against in the new age. That information would probably have come from the DO, if he remembers past ages, or from wherever Ishy gets his other outlandish information (memories?), so it could be that the Mat and Perrin type characters always have to be there, too.

 

Ishy also has access to both Essanik and Karaethon cycle prophecies. The Wolf King is mentioned at least in the Essanik cycle, so Ishy's knowledge that a Wolfbrother would be of some importance in the Last Battle is not necessarily from historical knowledge related to one or more previous 3rd Ages.

 

Yes, it sounds reasonable that DO would remember this turning's failures and try to avoid them next time. But I wonder about Sha'rah - it is ancient and seems to suggest that the Fisher King is a constant motive. So... does the Shadow always wound the Dragon? And does he always have a period of blindness? One thing is sure: the fight for his soul is always fierce.

 

Yes, but we don't know if Ishy had any belief that Sha'rah was a 3rd age 'echo' until after he wounded Rand and had a chance to analyze Rand's current 3rd Age behavior and attributes. He might have recently reached his conclusions regarding the potential link between Sha'rah and the 3rd Age Dragon incarnation.

Edited by Sentinel78
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Yes, it sounds reasonable that DO would remember this turning's failures and try to avoid them next time. But I wonder about Sha'rah - it is ancient and seems to suggest that the Fisher King is a constant motive. So... does the Shadow always wound the Dragon? And does he always have a period of blindness? One thing is sure: the fight for his soul is always fierce.

 

Yes, but we don't know if Ishy had any belief that Sha'rah was a 3rd age 'echo' until after he wounded Rand and had a chance to analyze Rand's current 3rd Age behavior and attributes. He might have recently reached his conclusions regarding the potential link between Sha'rah and the 3rd Age Dragon incarnation.

That would be ironic! "Oh no, I did it again..."

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I'm not even sure I could call the Dragon Reborn necessary for this Age, believe it or not. That could depend entirely on the conditions at the start of the Age. What if another Hero would be a better fit? And is it always saidin that gets tainted? That may not be the case either. Ta'veren are correction mechanisms. They are made when the Pattern is deviating from what the Wheel is trying to weave (and that's been made worse in the Third Age by the DO being able to touch the world; indeed, the Forsaken are unfamiliar with ta'veren entirely). So what is the natural course of the Age? It's not the ta'veren figures that are important, but what they do (or try to do or the (intended) results). Heroes of the Horn (which aren't necessarily ta'veren) may be respun out as either correction mechanisms, guides, or just to live or whatever.

 

What does strike me as an integral part of the Third Age is that the Dark One can touch the world in some fashion. The Bore seems to be a complete necessity.

 

what about fain then he is only spunned out by the pattern for this specific age?? Maybe, Tarmon Gaidon is called 'Last battle' only for this age. Previous Tarmon Gaidons in every 3 ages without him were temporary solution until this specific third age. I assume he will be the key of endless wars between shadow and light in this age.

 

Jordan confirmed that Fain's condition is an anomaly unique to this Age and I believe has implied that he's moving outside of the Wheel's influence. Also, you seem to make the assumption that there is a Last Battle and a confrontation with the Dark One every Age. That isn't implied.

Edited by Agitel
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I'm sure it's a well known interview:

 

Matt Peck

I asked that as the Wheel turned, each time an Age rolls around, is the Pattern exactly the same each time, or does it change?

Robert Jordan

 

He seemed to like this question. He likened it to a tapestry. When seen from a distance, each Third Age (to make it easy to track) has exactly the same pattern as the previous Third Age. However, when seen up close, there are differences. Threads are different, different nations exist, geography is different, different personalities rise to prominence. These changes, while minute in the grand scale of the Pattern, affect the Pattern enough so that while two iterations of an Age are almost the same, the first "Third Age" may be wildy different from the hundredth "Third Age".

The question is, how big can be the differences, given that "threads are different, different nations exist, geography is different, different personalities rise to prominence". If there's no Dragon - does it fit the statement above?

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I think that the wars in the third ages called Last Battle ' Tarmon Gaidon' Fight between DO and Dragon in other ages called with other names such as War of Shadow. However, we cannot know exactly what Last Battle means. It could be 'Last Battle' only for this age or it could really be last confrontation between shadow and light forever. I don't think it might be the case because the series called 'The Wheel of Time' and there is a cyclic time not linear.

 

Also, in a statement Jordan said that there must be some conditions that saidin can be tainted by Dark One. The location of seals, the time of counter attack of Shai'tan ext.. He also mentions that it is nearly impossible that the whole conditions are met in the same way. So the tainted saidin cannot be essential. Ta'veren also may not be essential for this age, for example if DO is able to remember the past failures and mistakes, he can take some precautions to prevent them happening. So, the pattern spins out strong Ta'veren such as Perrin and Mat to create balance between evil and good.

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I think that the wars in the third ages called Last Battle ' Tarmon Gaidon' Fight between DO and Dragon in other ages called with other names such as War of Shadow. However, we cannot know exactly what Last Battle means. It could be 'Last Battle' only for this age or it could really be last confrontation between shadow and light forever. I don't think it might be the case because the series called 'The Wheel of Time' and there is a cyclic time not linear.

It's a pretty popular theory that the next Last Battle will really be the last one and that Rand will manage to kill the DO for good as he intends to but this is actually pretty much disproved in the books. I wrote up a post about it recently.

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Some threads are essential

What remains in the turning of the wheel is a pattern the wheel threads, some of which form the basic shape of the age, and with which it will use other threads to aid the growth of this shape with no particular care (so some change is possible), the certain basic threads, those essential lives that lead to equally essential actions preserve the integrity of creation.

The horn is essential

This is manifest in the Horn of Valare. The souls bound to it ta’varen, threads to maintain the pattern; are they essential threads or aids to those threads?

The how and when of the horn’s construction is less relevant to how threads are bound to it. By what mechanism does the wheel bind souls to be so specifically spun? We hear from Hawkwing in The Great hunt that the wheel adds to their number. It possible that someone like Nyn rather than curing death, will learn the manner of binding a soul to the horn saving Rand’s soul from corruption by the DO snatching him back.

To preserve the souls through the ages we can assume the horn survives through the turnings of the wheel. The calling of the heroes at Falme (which kind of seemed over kill to me considering it wasn’t against shadow spawn) was a ‘pattern level event’ and essential moment that had to happen.

Mat is essential

For this it needed a sounder so Mat must be equally essential, it’s possible to assume his soul is spun out as a horn sounder/hero of the horn/ slash third ta’veren to Rand’s Dragon soul.

The DO’s power over the dead

The darkone on the verge of breaking out is essential though the nature of the prison and the bore may not be. Interestingly, while he was weak in touching the world he has power over the dead, at least those sworn to him. This suggest to me that in one age at least (called the third age by some) he must have the power to corrupt the souls the pattern threads into the wheel against the pattern itself and this same corruption must become the manner to save the pattern, so Rand’s comment that the taint would lead to the DO’s defeat (in this form at least).

The taint on Rand’s soul

Rand tainted is essential, ironically the manifestation of the ‘dragon’ soul that will save the world is the one after the Dragon himself.

The forsaken

I wouldn’t say the forsaken as essential, the fact that they are minor threads in the pattern must motivate their betrayal. I think rather that the number thirteen is significant; souls lost from the patterns control (to a degree), the purpose of their threads twisted (immortality is not in the pattern’s interest). How many pieces are there in that board game again?

Some rambling(sorry) food for thought. I’m procrastinating pretty hard.

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