The rise (and fall) of nudity in the WoT

[Knivy]

Is "writing with your left hand" deviant? How about "going to church more then once a week"? Or "Reading long novels for fun"? How about "only having sex with one person your entire life"?

 

When you get into behaviors that significant percentages of the human race do on a regular basis, calling them "deviant" just because a larger percentage of people don't is silly. By that definition, everyone is deviant; the word becomes meaningless if you apply it like that.

Semantics are silly places for arguments. Some of those things some would consider deviant, others would not be considered deviant.

 

It's not a semantic argument. It's a mathematical and sociological argument. Any behavior that a significant percentage of the human population does is a normal behavior by definition. It's only cultural bias that makes people think that common behaviors like BDSM or homosexuality are somehow "not normal", while less common behaviors are considered "normal".

 

By the way, 10% is a low estimate. If you include things such as spanking and blindfolds, you're probably talking about 20% or so of the population. For that matter, the book "50 shades of grey" has sold, what, 60 million copies or something? We're really not talking about fringe behaviors here, this is something that is pretty solidly in the mainstream here.

That doesnt mean anything.

 

How many murder-mystery books have sold? How many of those readers go on to murder someone?

[Yosarian]

By the way, 10% is a low estimate. If you include things such as spanking and blindfolds, you're probably talking about 20% or so of the population. For that matter, the book "50 shades of grey" has sold, what, 60 million copies or something? We're really not talking about fringe behaviors here, this is something that is pretty solidly in the mainstream here.

That doesnt mean anything.

 

How many murder-mystery books have sold? How many of those readers go on to murder someone?

 

Lol.

 

If we're talking about how many people at least fantasize or are curious about BDSM, though, then how many people buy what is by all accounts very poorly written BDSM smut is probably a pretty good metric for that.

[Mr Ares]

By dictionary definition, BDSM - indeed, homo- and bisexuality as well - is deviant. "Thing or person that deviates from normal behaviour". It is an accurate word if not, due to pejorative overtones, a good one to use.

Eh. When you're talking about 10% or more of the population (in cases of either BDSM or homosexual behavior) then that's common enough that you pretty much have to call it "normal behavior." Anything that greater then 10% of the human race as a whole does has to be considered pretty normal.

10% doing it means that 90% don't - that's a fairly significant majority. Incidentally, I have seen an openly gay member of the board admit that "deviant" is an accurate term for homosexuality - for exactly the reason I gave. I think there's a lot to be said for being deviant and proud - if you don't like the word, might as well try and reclaim it.

 

Is "writing with your left hand" deviant? How about "going to church more then once a week"? Or "Reading long novels for fun"? How about "only having sex with one person your entire life"?

 

When you get into behaviors that significant percentages of the human race do on a regular basis, calling them "deviant" just because a larger percentage of people don't is silly. By that definition, everyone is deviant; the word becomes meaningless if you apply it like that.

Again, definition of deviant. Something not done by a significant majority is abnormal, and therefore deviant. It only makes everyone a deviant if you apply the term too broadly. And speaking as a left handed person, writing with your left hand is definitely deviant. And if you feel the word is meaningless, take it up with the good people who wrote the Oxford English dictionary. I'm just the messenger.

 

How many murder-mystery books have sold? How many of those readers go on to murder someone?

Hey, those books are a valuable source of inspiration.

[shortkut]

Is "writing with your left hand" deviant? How about "going to church more then once a week"? Or "Reading long novels for fun"? How about "only having sex with one person your entire life"?

 

When you get into behaviors that significant percentages of the human race do on a regular basis, calling them "deviant" just because a larger percentage of people don't is silly. By that definition, everyone is deviant; the word becomes meaningless if you apply it like that.

Semantics are silly places for arguments. Some of those things some would consider deviant, others would not be considered deviant.

 

It's not a semantic argument. It's a mathematical and sociological argument. Any behavior that a significant percentage of the human population does is a normal behavior by definition. It's only cultural bias that makes people think that common behaviors like BDSM or homosexuality are somehow "not normal", while less common behaviors are considered "normal".

 

By the way, 10% is a low estimate. If you include things such as spanking and blindfolds, you're probably talking about 20% or so of the population. For that matter, the book "50 shades of grey" has sold, what, 60 million copies or something? We're really not talking about fringe behaviors here, this is something that is pretty solidly in the mainstream here.

That doesnt mean anything.

 

How many murder-mystery books have sold? How many of those readers go on to murder someone?

why can't they try to be the detective instead of the murderer? Since the detective is normally the main character, I find this a poor attempt to be pedantic

[wotfan4472]

I find WoT waaay better at handling nudity than ASOIAF, for example. Game of Thrones was a bit to racy for my liking, which is why I could not be bothered to purchase other titles. I also believe that in the case of Aes Sedai, it is important for the tests, in a cultural custom as a rite of passage, as others would have said before.. After all, there are alot of cultures in our world that deal with these issues differently. At least they have not gone into dealing with various customs when dealing with those that die!!!!!! That would be tooooo shocking for alot of people!

[LewisFriendly]

So, Robert Jordan wanted to be spanked? Or do the spanking? 

[Sabio]

Well as with Semirhage, she is seen beating a female and a male, for her the nudity is simply that when people are naked they feel more vulnerable.  Semirhage is defiantly a sadist, she gave pain to the Aes Sedai and pleasure to the warder.  The pleasure was more to confuse the warder since he was expecting to be beaten.  So in this instance the nudity is to make the prisoner uncomfortable and feel exposed.  I think some have read way too much into the books.  To be wondering some of the things that have come up in this topic.

[Orderofolde]

I find WoT waaay better at handling nudity than ASOIAF, for example. Game of Thrones was a bit to racy for my liking, which is why I could not be bothered to purchase other titles. I also believe that in the case of Aes Sedai, it is important for the tests, in a cultural custom as a rite of passage, as others would have said before.. After all, there are alot of cultures in our world that deal with these issues differently. At least they have not gone into dealing with various customs when dealing with those that die!!!!!! That would be tooooo shocking for alot of people!

You should look at some of RJ's notes.  Terez found some a little shocking, like the sensuous details of when Lanfear borrows a shirt from Rand, and it is obvious in other places that things are a little dialed back and restrained.  Min sitting in Rand's lap and wiggling, all the mentions of Berelain and the way she walks, every woman nearly falling out of their dress, pillow friends, etc. 

[damandred]

This is something i think RJ was very good at, the sexual implications in the books are, when looked at closely, pretty hardcore, but there is nothing too graphic and is mostly left to the readers imagination. It was all done very tastefully and never smutty.

[magatsu17]

This is something i think RJ was very good at, the sexual implications in the books are, when looked at closely, pretty hardcore, but there is nothing too graphic and is mostly left to the readers imagination. It was all done very tastefully and never smutty.

This is something i really apperciate even more now, that i've read a lot more books, then when i first read the series.  You know what happens but it leaves the details to your imagination, which I think works very well.

[udbabor520]

For that matter, the book "50 shades of grey" has sold, what, 60 million copies or something? We're really not talking about fringe behaviors here, this is something that is pretty solidly in the mainstream here.

 

It is over 110 million copies right now. It is very sad, so many homesitting middle aged women, their husbands/friends see porn during this time. Someone should inform them that they could make love (not quickies, not .ucking) to each other.

[udbabor520]

 Min sitting in Rand's lap and wiggling

 

This chapter is one my favs but I always laugh reading this. Poor Rand, he has hard on all the time.

[udbabor520]

Another fav tease of mine:

 

“Those men, turning their backs, and those women, guarding you. I would have put a stop to it if the man in the embroidered coat had not kept looking over his shoulder to admire your hips. And if your blushes had not said you knew.”

Elayne missed a step and stumbled. The cloak flared, losing the little body warmth it had trapped before she could snatch it closed again. “That filthy pig-kisser!” she growled. “I’ll . . . I’ll . . . !” Burn her, what could she do? Tell Rand? Let him deal with Taim? Never in life!

 

No way that Taim could see of anything but El doesn't see through Nadere's lie. It is so funny! And another evidence that El is not so bright. She does not hear the first sentence, only the second one.