Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[skalors3]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2703333" data-time="1355443997"><p>

I am? You do realize there is a group of people arguing our side correct? Further you have given zero evidence aside "well she is human and anything is possible". <br />

<br />

As Yoniy0, Fionwe etc have said the one other example given doesn't fit. Meanwhile we have provided the vast majority of evidence in the debate. Honestly when you say "plenty of arguments" I'm wondering if we are talking about the same conversation? Regardless it's obvious you haven't moved the needle at all. Unless you can show anything relating to her character I'm ready to more on. Cheers.</p></blockquote>

 

Sorry to say that what Yoniy0 and Fionwe said about it not fitting doesn't really matter when the text itself proves the point we make. I will dig out other examples for you where characters go against their established nature but it is obvious that any sort of argument that potentially makes your case moot are ignored and looked over.

 

It is not my fault that you steep your arguments in textual truth and when I provide proof in writing that RJ does make their characters go against their better nature, you say it doesn't fit for some cockamamy reason when he text has the person in question saying "wow, that's not my style at all."

 

I can provide other references for you with some thought if you want to see more. However, I am pretty sure that you're going to react the same way as you did to this concrete example.

[skalors3]

I lost my earlier reply. I am upset. Lol.

 

I cannot see how anyone can say that example doesn't fit.

 

"Suddenly, what she had done struck her. She had always moved in the dim places, always kept herself hidden, always. . . . "

 

This is a woman much older than Cadsuane. Likely more calculating. Then she admits that she was completely out of her character.

 

You steep yourself in textual, written evidence and it is provided in a flawless manner and you refuse to see the truth of the situation that RJ did in fact have his characters act out of sorts which negates any argument you have that characters in this world have to act in a preset pattern.

 

So to say that this goes against Cadsuanes character and therefore is unbelievable is a straw man in itself. We have evidence that it happens in this world.

[fionwe1987]

About the Moghedien thing... This is not the first time she has struck out in the open. When Birgette's past life exposed her in the AoL, she openly created a massive distraction by interfering with the transit system of Paraan Disen, and then managed to escape. Sending balefire against a ship is nothing compared to that.

[skalors3]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="fionwe1987" data-cid="2703429" data-time="1355447024"><p>

About the Moghedien thing... This is not the first time she has struck out in the open. When Birgette's past life exposed her in the AoL, she openly created a massive distraction by interfering with the transit system of Paraan Disen, and then managed to escape. Sending balefire against a ship is nothing compared to that.</p></blockquote>

 

So you're saying that RJ stating that she ALWAYS worked in the shadows is a lie. Also, since you don't know how exactly she disrupted the transit system, you cannot exactly say that the open attack wasn't done covertly with much planning.

[fionwe1987]

So you're saying that RJ stating that she ALWAYS worked in the shadows is a lie. Also, since you don't know how exactly she disrupted the transit system, you cannot exactly say that the open attack wasn't done covertly with much planning.

RJ never stated that. Its her usual modus operandi, but we've seen examples to the contrary before. We heard about this before she struck out on Nynaeve. Hence, it needed to be factored into our reading of the situation.

[skalors3]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="fionwe1987" data-cid="2703441" data-time="1355447464"><p>

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="skalors3" data-cid="2703435" data-time="1355447303"><p>So you're saying that RJ stating that she ALWAYS worked in the shadows is a lie. Also, since you don't know how exactly she disrupted the transit system, you cannot exactly say that the open attack wasn't done covertly with much planning.</p></blockquote>

RJ never stated that. Its her usual modus operandi, but we've seen examples to the contrary before. We heard about this before she struck out on Nynaeve. Hence, it needed to be factored into our reading of the situation.</p></blockquote>

 

RJ stated that in his writing. Which is evidenced by the aforementioned text.

[skalors3]

Also Fionwe, where is it documented that Mogs attacked the transit system? I only recall LTT and Dem battling there.

[Manscher]

Go back and re-read the scene. That isn't how it happened. He says he began to say her words and then didn't follow up on it, he never mentions anyting about saying her name, and in one sentence she goes from cooly asking hima question to lashing out because someone is telling her the truth. As long as Rand is alive it's not her "last chance" and as people said she didn't blink with the world on the line before. For the last time I have said a number of times she is capable of snapping but it wouldn't happen based on what was said in that scene and she sure as hell wouldn't go after an unarmed man for telling the truth. She would be disgusted by any AS who have to resort to it.

First part, true, my bad. As for the "cooly asking", that doesn't really say much when we are talking about Aes Sedai in a none Aes Sedai PoV. She didn't blink the previous chances, because as pointed out, she was in the middle of a fight, and the stress from her "failure" in keeping the Bands hidden and Rand exiling her, hadn't kicked in yet.

 

She went to Sorilea earlier in the book to admit to failure, and they then came up with this plan, which have a very "Last gambit" vibe to it, whether that is true or not we wont know. But it did fail, and she did react in a way she wouldn't normally.

 

As for the part about her being disgusted about using the One Power. Perrin was disgusted with himself when he tortured the Aiel Prisoner, another scenario with a person under extreme duress. Rand was disgusted with himself for killing that DF woman in TDR, again a person under duress doing things they don't like to do. So that argument is rather invalid in this very situation, as she is under extreme pressure and does not act rational.

[skalors3]

Though, since you brought Birgitte up, this is what she had to say about Mogs

 

"She hides and takes no risks. She attacks only where she sees weakness, and moves only in shadows. If she fears defeat, she will run; she is not one to fight to the last, even when doing so has the chance of victory. A chance is not good enough for Moghedien. Lanfear always claimed Tel'aran'rhiod for her own, but Moghedien could do things here far beyond Lanfear, though she has not Lanfear's strength in the world of flesh."

[DaoineSidhe]

Just a couple of thoughts I had on the Cads bullying Tam with the OP subject:

 

-I find it somewhat funny that so many comment on Cadsuane's out of character behavior in this scene, and not nearly so many comment on how Tam is behaving out of character himself.  Tam is right up there with Lan, Gareth, and the Aiel for his ability to stay calm and collected regardless of what is going on around him.  In fact, this scene is the first scene that we see Tam get angry/loose his temper.  Of course, his son did just almost kill him, so being frayed is more than a little understandable.

 

-Cadsuane:  Many people have tried to stand up to Cadsuane throughout the series.  And up until this point, they have all failed.  Mostly because Cadsuane was right, and the others were wrong.  Tam's the first who really brings an argument to Cadsuane where he was right and she was wrong.  This is the type of argument that Cadsuane is not used to.  When she's the one that is right, it is much easier to stay calm and collected in the face of other's anger at you, because, well, you KNOW you are right.  It is another thing when someone calls you out in a semi-public way on something that you have failed to do, especially when you've failed so spectacularly.  My own reactions coupled with how I've seen others react in these situations is that people will OFTEN act uncharacteristically in these situations.  Cadsuane is typically a rational person, but also very proud and secure in her power and knowledge.  She is a legend among other Aes Sedai.  And here barges in Tam Al'Thor, father to the Dragon Reborn, but fairly normal outside of that.  And he confronts her in front of other Aes Sedai, and makes valid points while doing so.  Not only is she angry that someone like Tam is correcting her, but she it is happening in front of others who view her as a legend.  Talk about shame cutting deep as a knife.  And this man was her last hope to succeed in showing Rand laughter and tears.  To me, it makes a lot of sense that she reacted this way.  And I've always liked Cadsuane's character.  She is practical and pragmatic in a way that very few Aes Sedai are. 

 

I think that throughout many of Cadsuane's POVs in the series, she shows herself to be one of the most self-aware characters.  She is intimately aware of her own strengths and weaknesses, which is one of the things that has enabled her to be as successful as she has.  When you understand what you can and can't do, you are able to keep from over-reaching in your objectives and then failing due to misjudgment of your own abilities.  The problem with this and her dealing with the Dragon Reborn is that she GROSSLY mis-understood the complexity, difficulty, and scope of her task.  Or maybe she did know, and thought the task too important not to make the attempt anyways.  Regardless, as her failures with Rand continue to mount up (she isn't a failure in protecting him, or advising him, but she sure as hell is with her main task of laughter and tears up to that point), she stays calm and collected, because well, up until this point, she's always had another plan.  A next path to try.  When Tam bursts in, this is the first time she doesn't have that next plan ready.  The fact that this is the father of the person she's having all this difficulty with, and that the father at the moment is acting in a similar way also is probably a contributing factor as well.  She may have to put up with this sort of behavior from one Al'Thor, but by God, but she doesn't with Tam.  She is grasping that one bit of control she can exert on a world that has seemingly become immune to her abilities to control events.  Is this little outburst of hers out of character?  Yes and No.  Yes, in that she has never reacted this way throughout the entire series.  But also no, because she has never faced  this level of failure at any point in her life.  When someone goes through unexpected hardships, things they have not experienced before, it is not surprising that they act out of character.  The situation that they are in is out of character, and as a result, so is their behavior.  

 

The reason that I really like this scene is how quickly she recovers from hitting rock bottom.  Tam points out how her behavior is just that of a bully at that point, well, she blinks, and puts him down.  Because she realizes that in that instant, she was.  When she caused others physical pain, or man-handled them with the OP, she always had a purpose to it, some other goal than just controlling them through strength.  She wasn't a bully, she was someone who was using the tools that best worked in order to get the job done.  Not that these would have been the best tools if used by someone else, but for her it worked, and worked well.  This is why when Tam says what he does, he is right, and why it surprises Cadsuane, and she sets him down.  It is impressive to me that she was able to recover from her final failure so quickly, and is something that I would expect nothing less of from Cadsuane Sedai.

 

The thing I don't like about Brandon's writing of Cadsuane is the loss of that self criticism that I always found very interesting when RJ wrote her.  In addition, Brandon tended to have his Cadsuane self-actualization moments go along the lines of "this is this way because of x!, she realized". (Think her interrogation of Semirhage)  Compare this to RJ's writing with her feeling out Sorilea right before she makes the agreement between them for Rand to re-discover laughter and tears.  Throughout the conversation, she senses that something is about to happen, but is also acutely aware of the dangers, and even realizing where she is taking a chance she would have berated others for taking.  It is these moments where Brandon's over-simplifying of Cadsuane's character that causes issues.  (The same problem he has with Mat, IMO, btw).

 

So I guess I'd say I do have issues with Brandon's writing of Cadsuane, just not in the scene where she lifts Tam up and is called a bully.

[Suttree]

@skalors

 

As anyone who has spent time here can attest if there is a compelling argument made I have no problem saying well done and changing my mind. As I said in the last post it doesn't seem like either side is moving. We seem to agree that the scene wasn't well written but you two claim Cads isn't off here. I feel like it was a blunt portrayal, she was like a caricature version of the one we know. All good but as no one seems to have budged the other side I'm cool moving on. Thanks for the discussion.

[Manscher]

Nice post DaoineSidhe, some points I hadn't thought of at all. And I agree with Cadsuanes quick recovery, it just goes to prove how experienced and well disciplined she is, she realized her mistake and quickly regained controls.

 

@skalors

 

As anyone who has spent time here can attest if there is a compelling argument made I have no problem saying well done and changing my mind. As I said in the last post it doesn't seem like either side is moving. We seem to agree that the scene wasn't well written but you two claim Cads isn't off here. That's fine, as no one seems to have budged the other however I'm good moving on. Thanks for the discussion.

Was about to say the same. It started to go a bit in circles and neither sides wants to budget. Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter.

[skalors3]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="Suttree" data-cid="2703574" data-time="1355454329"><p>

@skalors<br />

<br />

As anyone who has spent time here can attest if there is a compelling argument made I have no problem saying well done and changing my mind. As I said in the last post it doesn't seem like either side is moving. We seem to agree that the scene wasn't well written but you two claim Cads isn't off here. I feel like it was a blunt portrayal, she was like a caricature version of the one we know. All good but as no one seems to have budged the other side I'm cool moving on. Thanks for the discussion.</p></blockquote>

 

I never said that this scene was awesome. It may have been short, rushed and blunt, but is doesn't make it unrealistic which is what you're trying to say. You base that claim off of no textual evidence of this type of reaction from Cads. I demonstrated the error of that thought process.

 

*Edit

 

It was an enlightening conversation and thanks.

[The Fisher King]

I went in circles once...You do NOT want to know what I did to my pants :-(

 

 

Fish

[Agitel]

I saw the Cads/Tam argument yesterday, but I didn't have time to comment.

 

Is Cads acting out of character in that scene? Yes, of course she is. That's the point. The unflappable Cadsuane lost her cool during the point of highest thematic and plot tension in the entire series (so far). It's only the point where Cads' hopes and plans have crashed down to their lowest. Her OOC reaction is entirely believable and only serves to heighten the tension of the moment. Had RJ written this scene with Cads lashing out with the power, we'd all be moved to silence at how much that simple action demonstrates about the moment without more needing to be said to define it. The people complaining that it's out of character for her are stripping the scene of all its context. Could it have been written better? Maybe, I really don't feel like wading through that swamp right now.

[Suttree]

I saw the Cads/Tam argument yesterday, but I didn't have time to comment.

 

Is Cads acting out of character in that scene? Yes, of course she is. That's the point. The unflappable Cadsuane lost her cool during the point of highest thematic and plot tension in the entire series (so far). It's only the point where Cads' hopes and plans have crashed down to their lowest. Her OOC reaction is entirely believable and only serves to heighten the tension of the moment. Had RJ written this scene with Cads lashing out with the power, we'd all be moved to silence at how much that simple action demonstrates about the moment without more needing to be said to define it. The people complaining that it's out of character for her are stripping the scene of all its context. Could it have been written better? Maybe, I really don't feel like wading through that swamp right now.

No one has stripped it of context, you are missing the point entirely. Everyone dissapointed with how Cads was portrayed cites the opportunity lost here. Go back and read the scene. It's blunt, there is an overly literal portrayal of Cads "the bully" which makes her a caricature and the whole thing races from a to b and feels like a check list. On top of that she doesan't just "snap"(which is entirely possible) she changes her character entirely by lashing out because somone told her the truth. There are a number of ways the scene could have been written with Cads "snapping" that would have been very powerful. I suspect had RJ written his version we would have been moved to silence, it would not have resembled this version in the slightest however.

[Agitel]

I saw the Cads/Tam argument yesterday, but I didn't have time to comment.

 

Is Cads acting out of character in that scene? Yes, of course she is. That's the point. The unflappable Cadsuane lost her cool during the point of highest thematic and plot tension in the entire series (so far). It's only the point where Cads' hopes and plans have crashed down to their lowest. Her OOC reaction is entirely believable and only serves to heighten the tension of the moment. Had RJ written this scene with Cads lashing out with the power, we'd all be moved to silence at how much that simple action demonstrates about the moment without more needing to be said to define it. The people complaining that it's out of character for her are stripping the scene of all its context. Could it have been written better? Maybe, I really don't feel like wading through that swamp right now.

No one has stripped it of context, you are missing the point entirely. Everyone dissapointed with how Cads was portrayed cites the opportunity lost here. Go back and read the scene. It's blunt, there is an overly literal portrayal of Cads "the bully" which makes her a caricature and the whole thing races from a to b and feels like a check list. On top of that she doesan't just "snap"(which is entirely possible) she changes her character entirely by lashing out because somone told her the truth. There are a number of ways the scene could have been written with Cads "snapping" that would have been very powerful. I suspect had RJ written his version we would have been moved to silence, it would not have resembled this version in the slightest however.

 

I've reread the passage, I haven't changed my mind. The only things we have to read Cads emotions in that scene are her actions. Just a few paragraphs before we have Min seeing Beldeine flush and noting that Aes Sedai do show emotions, they are just more subtle about it. I don't read anything in that scene that contradicts my thoughts on it. It seems like people are reading Tam's words to Cads as Brandon's own personal thoughts on the subject and the beacon of truth as Brandon sees it, rather than just Tam's assessment at that moment, and a summation of how Rand must have felt. Immediately after Tam speaks Cads puts a lid on her emotions. But she's pretty much icy cold in tone the entire scene, which I think highlights how tumultuous her inner emotions are and how difficult retaining that Aes Sedai serenity is at that time (in fact, we just saw her lose it for a moment).

 

You're reading too much into what Tam says, elevating him to some sage wisdom when there's no reason for it to be implied there.

[MarkDiLillo]

I really cannot believe people are actually arguing against this being a tremendously terrible scene with Cadsuane acting entirely different from what we've seen throughout the serries.  Its simple:  if she were meant to act out of character WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD.  The argument that she was under so much stress is a good one, but we would have been given a sentence or three describing how she broke her Aes Sedai calm or something along those lines.  Someone would have mentioned that she must be terribly stressed for her to react in such a way.  But nope...we got none of that.  If she were meant to break character in that manner then the audience should have been told.  This isn't a fricken puzzle we are reading...this is a story and in stories everything is made perfectly clear unless intentionally left vague.  This was not an instance of intentionally leaving something vague.

 

Give it up.  The scene was botched.

[Agitel]

I really cannot believe people are actually arguing against this being a tremendously terrible scene with Cadsuane acting entirely different from what we've seen throughout the serries.  Its simple:  if she were meant to act out of character WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD.  The argument that she was under so much stress is a good one, but we would have been given a sentence or three describing how she broke her Aes Sedai calm or something along those lines.  Someone would have mentioned that she must be terribly stressed for her to react in such a way.  But nope...we got none of that.  If she were meant to break character in that manner then the audience should have been told.  This isn't a fricken puzzle we are reading...this is a story and in stories everything is made perfectly clear unless intentionally left vague.  This was not an instance of intentionally leaving something vague.

 

Give it up.  The scene was botched.

 

And people complain about Brandon being blunt.

[MarkDiLillo]

I really cannot believe people are actually arguing against this being a tremendously terrible scene with Cadsuane acting entirely different from what we've seen throughout the serries.  Its simple:  if she were meant to act out of character WE WOULD HAVE BEEN TOLD.  The argument that she was under so much stress is a good one, but we would have been given a sentence or three describing how she broke her Aes Sedai calm or something along those lines.  Someone would have mentioned that she must be terribly stressed for her to react in such a way.  But nope...we got none of that.  If she were meant to break character in that manner then the audience should have been told.  This isn't a fricken puzzle we are reading...this is a story and in stories everything is made perfectly clear unless intentionally left vague.  This was not an instance of intentionally leaving something vague.

 

Give it up.  The scene was botched.

 

And people complain about Brandon being blunt.

 

Not sure if you are being intentionally dense or not?

 

The message of Cadsuane breaking her character and being overly stressed can be delivered to the reader in a variety of ways.  RJ would have written in Min reflecting how stressed she is or how she broke her Aes Sedai calm and must be under horrific stress because she actually does care.  Brandon would have Cadsuane say, "I am horribly stressed" to the room.  Big difference, but the same message is delivered.  That is the what people mean when they say Bradon is too blunt.

[Suttree]

I know that is a joke, and a good one at that, but you aren't at all seriously calling into question that aspect of his writing are you Agitel?

[Agitel]

I know that is a joke, and a good one at that, but you aren't at all seriously calling into question that aspect of his writing are you Agitel?

 

I'm not calling into question anything. Mark D's approach would take it to ridiculous heights. The way I've described the scene was clear to me on my initial read. It doesn't need further clarification. The reaction you guys are having to this scene is exactly what I meant when I said that everything Brandon does comes with a huge question mark. I have not seen anything that refutes my interpretation, and in fact, what I've said explains the scene just fine.

 

Between my first read and my second read of the series, one of the more common complaints I came across was that the Wheel of Time characters were poorly written and poorly defined. I came to accept that, in a way. Then on my reread I saw how subtle Jordan could be in how he defined his characters. Jordan would never have done anything near what Mark D is suggesting, he would have let the scene speak for itself.

 

As an olive branch, I'll offer that one other thing I concluded on my most recent read of that passage was that yes, it could be better written. I feel like a lot of the tension was lost in translation. But that's a different argument than complaining that Cads was acting out of character, which I honestly feel was the point of the scene. We're not supposed to take Tam's words as the ultimate summation of Cads' character, as some of you seem to want to project onto Brandon.

[Suttree]

I think it is pretty much accepted Mark has seperated himself from most other critics in his approach.

[MarkDiLillo]

I know that is a joke, and a good one at that, but you aren't at all seriously calling into question that aspect of his writing are you Agitel?

 

I'm not calling into question anything. Mark D's approach would take it to ridiculous heights. The way I've described the scene was clear to me on my initial read. It doesn't need further clarification. The reaction you guys are having to this scene is exactly what I meant when I said that everything Brandon does comes with a huge question mark. I have not seen anything that refutes my interpretation, and in fact, what I've said explains the scene just fine.

 

Between my first read and my second read of the series, one of the more common complaints I came across was that the Wheel of Time characters were poorly written and poorly defined. I came to accept that, in a way. Then on my reread I saw how subtle Jordan could be in how he defined his characters. Jordan would never have done anything near what Mark D is suggesting, he would have let the scene speak for itself.

 

As an olive branch, I'll offer that one other thing I concluded on my most recent read of that passage was that yes, it could be better written. I feel like a lot of the tension was lost in translation. But that's a different argument than complaining that Cads was acting out of character, which I honestly feel was the point of the scene. We're not supposed to take Tam's words as the ultimate summation of Cads' character, as some of you seem to want to project onto Brandon.

 

Explain what you mean by my approach.  I gave a hypothetical example to highlight the differences between BS and RJ when it comes to explaining something to the reader.  Are you trying to say that Jordan did not subtly explain things to readers and left everything to be implied or interpreted?  Because that's what it sounds like to me right now.

 

The only instance I can think of where there is a question mark in the readers mind about what is going on is the scene in the first book where Rand kills the Darkfriend merchant woman.  We are left to figure out for ourselves if she's a darkfriend and just assume that is the case.  In the Cads scene, the problem with the "Cads is stressed out and thats why she acted out of character" argument is that we are making an assumption.  The foundation of that argument is that we are assuming her emotional state and saying her behavior is reasonable even though we do not have any textual evidence to point to this being the case.

[Sid]

Brandon paints Cads as a complete hypocrite in the scene, for one thing.  Minutes after scolding Beldine for bad manners and asking her for an acknowledgement, she does something much less polite and doesn't acknowledge it.

 

Also, it's been established that characters that are around AS a lot, like Min has been lately, can see subtle things that give away emotional reactions on their faces, as Beldine had just given them a dark look.  She sees nothing on Cadsuane's face or in her demeanor that suggests that she's out of sorts even a little bit.  The scene does absolutely nothing to acknowledge that she's ruffled in the slightest, other than her actions.  Brandon has a tendency to overexplain things or even hit you over the head with them when he wants things to be explained in these books (case in point, Elayne's CH 2 revelation that Rand's letter means he's getting better at the game of houses by using a trick parents use with their toddlers) , and here he goes radio silent, suggesting her actions are totally in character for her, which they aren't.  That's what mostly ruins the scene.  Later, there's nothing in her PoV's that recall her 'losing her cool' with Tam either (an event that would likely stick with her for a very long time), so the inconsistency wasn't even acknowledged with a bandage in the next book, suggesting there was nothing to bandage.