Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Manscher]

Sure it isn't the forums itself? It's been acting up quite a bit lately.

 

Anyhow, as for the straw man thing, I stated those things because I've once before brought up this point, and it was just brushed aside by the critics, without any sort of counter argument for it. So I decided to be a bit provocative this time around and conclude that clearly some of you must consider her above human emotions if you didn't think my point valid.

 

Regards to the other, we have to consider that we are seeing this scene from Min and we know Aes Sedai are extremely good at keeping emotions hidden away from others. So we really have no idea what Cadsuanes state of mind is at that moment. What we do know is that she previously in the book was frustrated about her inability to teach Rand how to laugh and cry, and that she had been forced to hide herself from Rand, which we know was an annoyance to her, and to work by proxies. Oh and don't forget we are talking about the faith of the entire world here. So naturally all of this builds up pressure.

 

This puts her in a perfect state of mind for the abrupt explosion we saw. So when she asks Tam if he had used the exact words that she herself had prepared, which Tam did at first, but as it wasn't working, he went off script, which resulted in Rands meltdown. Tam didn't do exactly as Cadsuane said, a downside of working through others. This is the last drop that made it all overflow, and she resorted to an aggressive and violent act.

 

Could there had been more talk and dialogue as a build up for this? Perhaps, but that isn't a characterization issue. Her actions were perfectly understandable and human.

 

 

EDIT: Really hate how it seems to forget linebreaks when you post from the quick reply.

[The Fisher King]

Yeah, both the posting and editing fucnctions - especially on mobile devices - have reeeally been acting weird here recently. I tried to shed some light onit but Barid shut THAT down reeeeal quick, lol !!  ;-)

 

 

Fish

[Suttree]

@skalors3

 

You can see some thoughts in my post above. While Cads does occasionally use bullying it is just one tool of many in a very large box. Per RJ she is a "remarkably adaptable" women and she is constantly analyzing situations in order to assess the best tool to use at any given time. Far from just bullying we see her propose alliances as equals, exchange information, prop up peoples cofidence, and be a meticulous planner. We have never once seen her bully without a very specific goal(she is certainly never dumb)and she almost always treats people based upon their actions. Again I have no problem that she snapped, but the manner in which she did so and way that scene was written? Not a chance.

[skalors3]

@Suttree I cannot envision her snapping in any other way. You can honestly say you envision her yelling over wrapping someone in air? I can see her use the one power to regain footing however. While I cannot argue the "you don't know her POV" on this instance because she clearly lost control, I can say that if she were to lose control, I can see this. It isn't like she exploded Taim's head.

 

What other problems did you have with the scene besides it being rushed?

[skalors3]

@Suttree I scrolled to the top. I don't see any rushing to this scene. First off, Cads was clearly on edge about something because Min even commented on how odd it was to hear her being frank (I believe, I haven't read the scene in a few weeks) . Then, she uncharacteristically expresses frustration over the exile. Then happens the Tam scene, where he talks to her like a dog. Couple that with the fact that she is failing, I totally see this reaction. I would even bet that this scene was mentioned by RJ in his audio. Since it is part of a major prophecy mentioned throughout the series.

 

I think many people are considering the laying of a foundation as being mistakes in this scene.

[BFG]

@The Fisher King - I actually have to disagree here (sort of anyway). In terms of 'stuff' to do then yes, he had the least to do, but he had the most character development (except for Rand) left to go through. Mat, Eg and Elayne have been leaders through about half way through the series. Nyn was also largely where she needed to be in KoD, although I think her character is another that has arguably developed in the last 3 books. Perrin had been left as a whiny, selfish schoolboy, out of all the characters he'd taken the most steps back (again except for Rand, but Rand has a very good excuse to be nuts). In one sense BS was left with a difficult position, Perrin needed to become a true leader, but wasn't left with any big events in which to develop.

 

I should add that in all this, Perrin was still an able leader, but at no point did I attribute it to him as such, more than the others it seemed a taveran affect, and his initial army was there because of Rand.

 

@Manscher, skalors3 - This is actually pretty much my own interpretation of it.

[BFG]

I have a genuine question here, that's generally unrelated to specific arguments that I've read on these threads recently (and I'm neutral at the moment on my opinion)...

 

A while ago, somebody posted an exerpt from an RJ interview (not sure which interview, or which thread, sorry) which said that the reason that Rand didn't appear very much in tDR was because RJ found it difficult to write Rand going so crazy.

 

I actually think it works really well in context and the couple of examples we see of him (on his journey), are, for me, genuinely creepy (almost scary), in particular the bit where he kills the people riding into camp, and is really great writing.

 

The horses swung toward his failing fire, entered the dim light, and stopped. The shadows obscured their riders, but most seemed to be rough-faced men wearing round helmets and long leather jerkins sewn all over with metal discs like fish scales. One was a woman with graying hair and a no-nonsense look on her face. Her dark dress was plain wool, but the finest weave, and adorned with a silver pin in the shape of a lion. A merchant, she seemed to him; he had seen her sort among those who came to buy tabac and wool in the Two Rivers. A merchant and her guards.

I have to be careful, he thought as he stood. No mistakes.

"You have chosen a good campsite, young man," she said. "I have often used it on my way to Remen. There is a small spring nearby. I trust you have no objection to my sharing it?" Her guards were already dismounting, hitching at their sword belts and loosening saddle girths.

"None," Rand told her. Careful. Two steps brought him close enough, and he leaped into the air, spinning – Thistledown Floats on the Whirlwind – heron-mark blade carved from fire coming into his hands to take her head off before surprise could even form on her face. She was the most dangerous.

He alighted as the woman's head rolled from the crupper of her horse. The guards yelled and clawed for their swords, screamed as they realized his blade burned. He danced among them in the forms Lan had taught him, and knew he could have killed all ten with ordinary steel, but the blade he wielded was part of him. The last man fell, and it had been so like practicing the forms that he had already begun the sheathing called Folding the Fan before he remembered he wore no scabbard and this blade would have turned it to ash at a touch if he had.

Letting the sword vanish, he turned to examine the horses. Most had run away, but some not far, and the woman's tall gelding stood with rolling eyes, whickering uneasily. Her headless corpse, lying on the ground, had maintained its grip on the reins, and held the animal's head down.

Rand pulled them free, pausing only to gather his few belongings before swinging into the saddle. I have to be careful, he thought as he looked over the dead. No mistakes.

The Power still filled him, the flow from saidin sweeter than honey, ranker than rotted meat. Abruptly he channeled – not really understanding what it was he did, or how, only that it seemed right; and it worked, lifting the corpses. He set them in a line, facing him, kneeling, faces in the dirt. For those who had faces left. Kneeling to him.

"If I am the Dragon Reborn," he told them, "that is the way it is supposed to be, isn't it?" Letting go of saidin was hard, but he did it. If I hold it too much, how will I keep the madness away? He laughed bitterly. Or is it too late for that?

Frowning, he peered at the line. He had been sure there were only ten men, but eleven men knelt in that line, one of them without armor of any sort but with a dagger still gripped in his hand.

"You chose the wrong company," Rand told that man.

Wheeling the gelding, he dug in his heels and set the animal to a dead gallop into the night. It was a long way to Tear, yet, but he meant to get there by the straightest way, if he had to kill horses or steal them. I will put an end to it. The taunting. The baiting. I will end it! Callandor. It called to him.

 

 

 

The reason this creeps me out so much is twofold - first it's the first time(?) we see him kill a woman, yet he never thinks of her, refers back to her or lets this affect his actions. Second is another question, has it ever been asked or confirmed that they were all DF? I generally read it as she was a genuine merchant and that it's the greyman that he instinctively reacts to?

 

 

We don't really see Rand act this sort of crazy again, at least not for a long while - and at least some of this is because I guess, Ishmael stops interferning with his dreams (speculation on my part).

 

 

So the question is, would RJ take Rand to as dark a place as BS managed in tGS? Would he have written it in a style closer to DR, where we see less viewpoints from Rand, but maybe more around him? Or has his ability to write dark Rand progressed enough in the middle stories?

[Teenage_Kicks]

Hi,

 

I’m going to pull a quote from the “Luckers... Official on Brandon” thread, as it was a response to Manscher’s post over there.

 

Now just to be clear I’m not wading in on the discussion from the point of either, if Brandon did a good job of writing or not, or if Cads “Voice” was correct or not etc. I do have my own views on this, but like I said that is not the point of my post, i simply want to ask a question/s.

 

From fionwe1987

Except, this defense expects us to believe that in more than 300 years, Cadsuane has never had someone not do as they're told. Based on her actions in the previous books, people not doing as they're told is like candy to Cadsuane. She thrives in those situations.

 

Now from my position of being on the fence, and attempting to try out the hat of Devils advocate, my question/s regarding the quote above is this –

 

During those 300+ years, would you not say that the current situation that she finds herself in, is in fact unique?

 

Unless there was a real dragon born prior to Rand within those years, she has not been in this position before. Yes she has fought / captured False Dragons, but she has not had to deal with the True Dragon reborn, who is rapidly approaching critical mass, mentally (so to speak).

 

Now as Manscher has said, Has Cads essentially reached her breaking point?

• Her plans have failed, or not produced the desired results,

• Her presumed final gambit of bringing Tam to Rand has appeared to have failed (although, In a roundabout way it did actually work),

• And quite possibly from her point of view her actions could have just doomed the world.

 

So I’ll ask another question.... We have seen Aes Sedai’s composure broken in the past, Why not Cads?

 

True, she probably has a higher threshold than most for dealing with Highly taut, pressurised situations, and as you said her character proberbly thrives on High Presure, but Everyone has a breaking point.

 

Is it so unreasonable for Cads to have reached hers?, or possibly, has not just reached but has taken a running, arms flailing jump over that Braking point?

 

 

Anyway please, please understand that this is not Criticism of what anyone has said, nor is it endorsement of what else has been said. These are some questions I thought of after reading the post from which I quoted.

 

I’m more than prepared to be told I’m talking absolute drivel, and I’ll happily shut up, and go back to my little corner and observe once again. 

 

Lastly, thanks to anyone taking the time to read this, I sincerely hope it wasn’t a waste of said time.

 

Tony

[MarkDiLillo]

I have a genuine question here, that's generally unrelated to specific arguments that I've read on these threads recently (and I'm neutral at the moment on my opinion)...

 

A while ago, somebody posted an exerpt from an RJ interview (not sure which interview, or which thread, sorry) which said that the reason that Rand didn't appear very much in tDR was because RJ found it difficult to write Rand going so crazy.

 

I actually think it works really well in context and the couple of examples we see of him (on his journey), are, for me, genuinely creepy (almost scary), in particular the bit where he kills the people riding into camp, and is really great writing.

 

The horses swung toward his failing fire, entered the dim light, and stopped. The shadows obscured their riders, but most seemed to be rough-faced men wearing round helmets and long leather jerkins sewn all over with metal discs like fish scales. One was a woman with graying hair and a no-nonsense look on her face. Her dark dress was plain wool, but the finest weave, and adorned with a silver pin in the shape of a lion. A merchant, she seemed to him; he had seen her sort among those who came to buy tabac and wool in the Two Rivers. A merchant and her guards.

I have to be careful, he thought as he stood. No mistakes.

"You have chosen a good campsite, young man," she said. "I have often used it on my way to Remen. There is a small spring nearby. I trust you have no objection to my sharing it?" Her guards were already dismounting, hitching at their sword belts and loosening saddle girths.

"None," Rand told her. Careful. Two steps brought him close enough, and he leaped into the air, spinning – Thistledown Floats on the Whirlwind – heron-mark blade carved from fire coming into his hands to take her head off before surprise could even form on her face. She was the most dangerous.

He alighted as the woman's head rolled from the crupper of her horse. The guards yelled and clawed for their swords, screamed as they realized his blade burned. He danced among them in the forms Lan had taught him, and knew he could have killed all ten with ordinary steel, but the blade he wielded was part of him. The last man fell, and it had been so like practicing the forms that he had already begun the sheathing called Folding the Fan before he remembered he wore no scabbard and this blade would have turned it to ash at a touch if he had.

Letting the sword vanish, he turned to examine the horses. Most had run away, but some not far, and the woman's tall gelding stood with rolling eyes, whickering uneasily. Her headless corpse, lying on the ground, had maintained its grip on the reins, and held the animal's head down.

Rand pulled them free, pausing only to gather his few belongings before swinging into the saddle. I have to be careful, he thought as he looked over the dead. No mistakes.

The Power still filled him, the flow from saidin sweeter than honey, ranker than rotted meat. Abruptly he channeled – not really understanding what it was he did, or how, only that it seemed right; and it worked, lifting the corpses. He set them in a line, facing him, kneeling, faces in the dirt. For those who had faces left. Kneeling to him.

"If I am the Dragon Reborn," he told them, "that is the way it is supposed to be, isn't it?" Letting go of saidin was hard, but he did it. If I hold it too much, how will I keep the madness away? He laughed bitterly. Or is it too late for that?

Frowning, he peered at the line. He had been sure there were only ten men, but eleven men knelt in that line, one of them without armor of any sort but with a dagger still gripped in his hand.

"You chose the wrong company," Rand told that man.

Wheeling the gelding, he dug in his heels and set the animal to a dead gallop into the night. It was a long way to Tear, yet, but he meant to get there by the straightest way, if he had to kill horses or steal them. I will put an end to it. The taunting. The baiting. I will end it! Callandor. It called to him.

 

 

The reason this creeps me out so much is twofold - first it's the first time(?) we see him kill a woman, yet he never thinks of her, refers back to her or lets this affect his actions. Second is another question, has it ever been asked or confirmed that they were all DF? I generally read it as she was a genuine merchant and that it's the greyman that he instinctively reacts to?

 

 

We don't really see Rand act this sort of crazy again, at least not for a long while - and at least some of this is because I guess, Ishmael stops interferning with his dreams (speculation on my part).

 

 

So the question is, would RJ take Rand to as dark a place as BS managed in tGS? Would he have written it in a style closer to DR, where we see less viewpoints from Rand, but maybe more around him? Or has his ability to write dark Rand progressed enough in the middle stories?

 

 

I always had the same thoughts about this entire scene.  Felt to me like it was not really made clear that the woman and her friends were darkfriends and Rand maybe just murdered them.

 

However...later on in the books I do seem to remember Rand thinking back on this and referring to them as darkfriends and even mentioning that this woman is on his list.  Maybe even the first on his list.  So it may have been that not clarifying this at the time was a mistake on RJ's part and he corrected it in a later book by making sure everyone was clear.

[BFG]

Moiraine has been first on his list for a long time, not to say she wasn't on there tho.

[MarkDiLillo]

We'd need Terez or an expert to verify here from the texts, but I really dont think Moiraine is first on the list at all.  I think maybe he thinks of her as being at the top of the list concerning how bad she makes him feel, but in chronological order I dont think she was first.  Could be wrong though.

[BFG]

No, I was talking order of importance on the list, not the order of which they occured.

 

Ilyena will be the first chronologically, but not the first put on the list.

[fionwe1987]

 

skalors3

@Fionwe1987 I disagree with Suttree's comment. You have two different circumstances. She isn't upset that Min is a non-channeler and being "bullied" (which she wasn't). She is upset because the woman is treating Min like she is a moron who is in over her head. Now, if she had just scolded Cads and Cads turned the other cheek, I may agree with your analysis. However, I know many people who can be calm and collected when acting as a mediator and blow up when they themselves are pushed. I feel that you made a poor connection to seperate circumstances.

You can know a hundred people who can dish it out but can't take it. The question is if Cadsuane falls in that category. Everything RJ said about her in his notes indicates otherwise.

 

And note this sentence:

 

Min had seen her treat others like this, including Rand. He had always grown frustrated, and others she did it to were prone to bellowing.

 

You can run yourself hoarse saying Brandon meant for us to see this as Cadsuane snapping under pressure, but in the text itself he linked Cadsuane's actions with Rand with how she was treating Tam. Which makes no sense. With Rand, the entire thing was a deliberate exercise, an act to prove to him that she didn't care about him, and if he made life around him too onerous for her, she will enforce her rules or walk away from being his advisor. That this instance of her using the OP on Tam is linked to her very deliberately abrasive behavior around Rand is precisely the problem I have with this scene. Brandon is saying this is a continuation of a trend, not a matter of high pressure at all, and then he has her chastised for it.

 

Here's what RJ had to say about her typical behavior:

 

She had a reputation for taking direct action, even to the point of violence, slapping faces, boxing ears, and more (especially when faced with what she considered stupidity), with high as often as low, or rather, more often. She also had a reputation for not caring whether she dented somebody's pride, if she thought it necessary.

 

But in this scene, Tam was not stupid, he was distraught. Understandably so. He's not "high". He's a peasant, and a dad. He was displaying no pride for Cadsuane to dent. 

 

Let's consider another high-pressure situation. The Dragon Reborn is at death's door in aCoS. Cadsuane has no guarantees he will survive. She gets him to the Sun Palace, and is faced with a distraught Nandera:

 

Nandera was with the Far Dareis Mai guarding the doors to Rand's rooms, with their gilded Rising Suns. When the graying Maiden saw Rand, stone-faced Aiel composure shattered. "What has happened to him?" she wailed, eyes going wide. "What has happened?" Some of the other Maidens began to moan, a low, hair-raising sound like a dirge.

"Be quiet!" Cadsuane roared, slapping her hands together in a thundercrack. "You, girl. He needs his bed. Hop!" Nandera hopped. Rand was stripped and in his bed in a twinkling, with Samitsu and Niande both hovering over him, the Cairhienin chased out and Nandera at the door repeating Cadsuane's instructions that he was not to be disturbed by anyone, all so fast Min felt dizzy. She hoped one day to see the confrontation between Cadsuane and the Wise One Sorilea; it had to come, and it would be memorable.

 

When faced with someone being distraught in the midst of an immense crisis, Cadsuane simply shuts them up... by yelling and clapping her hands loudly. Sure, this isn't exactly the same thing. But to go so far as to use the One Power on a non-channeler? I just don't see it. Siuan might do that (in fact, has done that). Not Cadsuane. 

Hi,

 

I’m going to pull a quote from the “Luckers... Official on Brandon” thread, as it was a response to Manscher’s post over there.

 

Now just to be clear I’m not wading in on the discussion from the point of either, if Brandon did a good job of writing or not, or if Cads “Voice” was correct or not etc. I do have my own views on this, but like I said that is not the point of my post, i simply want to ask a question/s.

 

From fionwe1987

Except, this defense expects us to believe that in more than 300 years, Cadsuane has never had someone not do as they're told. Based on her actions in the previous books, people not doing as they're told is like candy to Cadsuane. She thrives in those situations.

Now from my position of being on the fence, and attempting to try out the hat of Devils advocate, my question/s regarding the quote above is this –

 

During those 300+ years, would you not say that the current situation that she finds herself in, is in fact unique?

 

I think you should read the rest of my post. My answer is in there.

[skalors3]

We'd need Terez or an expert to verify here from the texts, but I really dont think Moiraine is first on the list at all. I think maybe he thinks of her as being at the top of the list concerning how bad she makes him feel, but in chronological order I dont think she was first. Could be wrong though.

I believe this to be accurate.

 

As a side note, I haven't made it to a computer but I will pm you.

[Suttree]

The merchant was a DF and RJ purposely wrote the scene to be ambigious. Ill post the quote a bit later.

[Terez]

We'd need Terez or an expert to verify here from the texts, but I really dont think Moiraine is first on the list at all.  I think maybe he thinks of her as being at the top of the list concerning how bad she makes him feel, but in chronological order I dont think she was first.  Could be wrong though.

 

Moiraine had died because he was not hard enough to do what had to be done. Her name always headed the list engraved on his brain, the women who had died because of him. Moiraine Damodred. Every name on that list brought anguish that made him forget the pains of his body, forget the stone walls just beyond his fingertips. Colavaere Saighan, who died because he had stripped her of everything she valued. Liah, Maiden of the Spear, of the Cosaida Chareen, who died at his own hands because she followed him to Shadar Logoth. Jendhilin, a Maiden of the Cold Peak Miagoma who died because she wanted the honor of guarding his door. He had to be hard! One by one he summoned up the names on that long list, patiently forging his soul in the fires of pain.

[skalors3]

@Fionwe I won't comment on the majority of your post because it takes forever on the kindle. Nonetheless, I do have to say that I find your assumption of Cads reasons for treating Rand the way she did to be disingenuine. Firstly, we don't see enough of Cads POV to actually identify the reasoning behind everything she does. It is assumed that she is being calculating all the time, but the simple truth is we can only assume.

 

Secondly, you're complaining about a characters objective view of her beliefs. Yet you forget that Min doesn't have the unique advantage of seeing Cads thought processes, and Cads certainly isn't a very open woman. I don't see what the complaint is with Min's observation. She is simply sharing her view on the matter as she likely has seen it in the past.

 

Lastly, you cannot use the scene where rand was tainted with the SL blade as a comparison to what happened in the scene in question. They are different. When he was stabbed, she was saving him from himself. In the scene in question, she is the one who brought ruin to everything. She is under a different type of pressure much later in the game.

[Suttree]

Firstly, we don't see enough of Cads POV to actually identify the reasoning behind everything she does. It is assumed that she is being calculating all the time, but the simple truth is we can only assume.

 

We don't assume, we see it in almost every point of view we get from her and the reasoning for what she does is made clear. In addition even when dont get a pov we see many scenes such as the Rand rescue in Far Madding when she has a plan in place many steps before the readers even understand why she might need one.

[BFG]

Thanks for the info on the merchant/DF incident - but the larger question (and why it was posted on this thread instead of general questions - as it is likely to head into writing style) is

 

Could RJ have written Dark Rand in tGS, or pushed him as far/low as BS did, based on a quote that I think I've read on these threads that stated that RJ found writing Rands foray into madness difficult to write. (The merchant was really meant as an example to show that I thought he did it well, then I got sidetracked).

 

As I started by saying, I'm relatively neutral on whether or not he could/would - I think the merchant/DF was excellently written and proof that he could, but I read that quote (still can't remember where I read it) that said he found it difficult.

 

After DR I believe Ishy stopped playing with Rands dreams, at least for a while and so, to an extent RJ could bring Rand back a little - we don't see any more examples of dark-'pre-emptive'-Rand until tGS (that I remember).

[Teenage_Kicks]

 

 

Hi,

 

I’m going to pull a quote from the “Luckers... Official on Brandon” thread, as it was a response to Manscher’s post over there.

 

Now just to be clear I’m not wading in on the discussion from the point of either, if Brandon did a good job of writing or not, or if Cads “Voice” was correct or not etc. I do have my own views on this, but like I said that is not the point of my post, i simply want to ask a question/s.

 

From fionwe1987

 

Except, this defense expects us to believe that in more than 300 years, Cadsuane has never had someone not do as they're told. Based on her actions in the previous books, people not doing as they're told is like candy to Cadsuane. She thrives in those situations.

Now from my position of being on the fence, and attempting to try out the hat of Devils advocate, my question/s regarding the quote above is this –

 

During those 300+ years, would you not say that the current situation that she finds herself in, is in fact unique?

 

I think you should read the rest of my post. My answer is in there.

 

Hi, For what its worth i appologise.

 

Perfect case in point for me to really have my keyboard confiscated... And internet connection

 

Sorry

 

Tony

[yoniy0]

(a) We actually do know Cadsuane's reasoning. In her own PoV, she acknowledged Sorelia's suggestion that letting Rand believe he didn't interest her was the only way to get him to use her (by the way, that's the exact same thing Moiraine did in TGH, so it's a surprise Rand never caught on to that fact; at least it is to me).

 

(b) It doesn't matter how late it is in the game. A missing DR is better than a dying one, where stress is concerned. If he dies, that's it; game over (for all that Cadsuane knows, at least). I do agree that her feelings of responsibility for what's happened are very relevant, but whatever makes you think she didn't feel the same about not protecting him from Fain, when she took it upon herself to protect their band (and, in fact, instructed Rand not to use the Power)?

 

Now, naturally, everyone has their breaking point, and not reaching it once is no guaranty against breaking on a different occasion. But people don't change who they are; even at your worst, you only act on your less positive qualities. For Cadsuane, that's her bossiness, perhaps her difficulty to trust people (such as, she might shot Nynaeve down just because, without considering the merits of her ideas). Becoming someone who would use the Power to keep from hearing the truth, and on a defenceless man, well, that's a whole other thing. Quite in line with Cads's reaction to letting Elza acquire the DB (oh, right, the FS; of course there's nothing you could've done to stop them. Wait, what's that? You knew all along that you're facing them? You had one in your custody for a month? Facing them is the only way to achieve what you've set out to do, all this time ago? Never mind that, keep merrily on), which again showed Brandon's bias.

[MarkDiLillo]

Thanks for the info on the merchant/DF incident - but the larger question (and why it was posted on this thread instead of general questions - as it is likely to head into writing style) is

 

Could RJ have written Dark Rand in tGS, or pushed him as far/low as BS did, based on a quote that I think I've read on these threads that stated that RJ found writing Rands foray into madness difficult to write. (The merchant was really meant as an example to show that I thought he did it well, then I got sidetracked).

 

As I started by saying, I'm relatively neutral on whether or not he could/would - I think the merchant/DF was excellently written and proof that he could, but I read that quote (still can't remember where I read it) that said he found it difficult.

 

After DR I believe Ishy stopped playing with Rands dreams, at least for a while and so, to an extent RJ could bring Rand back a little - we don't see any more examples of dark-'pre-emptive'-Rand until tGS (that I remember).   

 

I dont really think there is a question of whether RJ could write Dark Rand as well as Brandon.  RJ would have written one that was tremendously better.  The difference is that RJ's would not have been so bluntly evil and dark.  RJ's "Dark Rand" would have looked more tortured and pained and insane; closer to Lews Therins voice in Rands head.  I didn't think Brandon did a terribly good job with Rand in any of what he wrote aside from the Veins of Gold scene and the short list of events leading up to it (I think he did a great job with that sequence).  Rand post-VoG was almost a new character entirely given his integrated memories so a lot of people feel like he nailed it, but I feel like that's where he really messed up.  Rand wasn't supposed to feel like a new character post-VoG; he was supposed to be the good ol' Rand we knew and loved from the first couple books...just with an acceptance of LTT's memories.

 

The big complaint I have with his Rand writing is simply some of the dialogue...it is so ridiculously corny and out of character.  Like I said before, Rand feels like a bad actor just saying his lines on a made-for-TV movie now.  If I were to grade Rand on the list of characters that Brandon wrote, I would place him somewhere in the middle and give him a C.  Perrin gets an A, Mat gets a D, Rand gets a C.

 

It has just occured to me that most of the "problems" I have with Brandons actual writing occur with dialogue.  When it comes to just writing scenes devoid of dialogue he isn't very bad at all.  The guy just seems to be horrendous at incorporating characters actually verballing communicating and more often than not it comes off as completely unrealistic and out of character.  My guy reaction to half the dialogue that Brandon writes is "who the hell actually talks like that?!" and "are you kidding me...nobody says that."  A lot of his dialogue, especially when it is dramatic, comes off as the kind of things you think up when you're a kid and are fantasizing but realize it would sound totally silly to say that after you grow up and have some real world experience.  Brandon sticks with the mega-corny dialogue of characters saying what he's always wanted them to say in a scene.

[skalors3]

 

 

Firstly, we don't see enough of Cads POV to actually identify the reasoning behind everything she does. It is assumed that she is being calculating all the time, but the simple truth is we can only assume.

 

We don't assume, we see it in almost every point of view we get from her and the reasoning for what she does is made clear. In addition even when dont get a pov we see many scenes such as the Rand rescue in Far Madding when she has a plan in place many steps before the readers even understand why she might need one.

She has something like 9 total POVs, nowhere near enough to gage her every reaction.

[Suttree]

She has something like 9 total POVs, nowhere near enough to gage her every reaction.

Nah mate, you're losing me at this point. Between RJ's notes, her povs, and they way we see her test Rand's character before acting and plan ahead always is more than enough to gauge this particular situation.

 

Further see Yoniy0's post above. +1

[skalors3]

 

 

She has something like 9 total POVs, nowhere near enough to gage her every reaction.

Nah mate, you're losing me at this point. Between RJ's notes, her povs, and they way we see her test Rand's character and plan ahead is more than enough.

 

Further see Yoniy0's post above. +1

I disagree. I think we have enough to understand her personality, but not enough to understand her completely. Certainly not enough to interpret her every reaction. To say that we do is.....wishful.