Thisguy's Topic on Brandon's Work

[Balefire to da face!]

I also remember that a alot of people(I would even say most) swore up and down that the farmer passage in the Prologue of The Gathering Storm was totally Brandon. There was no way RJ could have written that. It was scrutinized to death leading up to release. So much so that it actually wasn't until I started doing my regular pre-release Wheel of Time info research-a-thon just a couple weeks ago that I found out apparently that scene has been confirmed to have been RJ.

You have a problem there, because a recording of that scene in RJ's voice was played at that year's Dragoncon, before the release. No one who was active on this site prior to the release should've been ignorant of who wrote it. And though I don't remember, I can't imagine we would neglect to indicate that fact to anyone who was confused about it.

 

Yeah, I looked into it and you seem to be right.

 

I may be confusing the farmer scene with borderlanders scene from ToM.

[Suttree]

Wanted to resurrect this post from another thread by Fionwe. It touches on something I just noticed in a reread and feel it's spot on, especially in ToM. It goes right along with what Barid mentioned above.

 

Me too. I was seriously worried Brandon would go the other way and continue writing Egwene the way he was. Fan noise seems to have reached him on this though.

 

Reading her PoV, one thing strikes me. The biggest flaw to Brandon's writing is that when characters start talking, we stop seeing their points of view. With Jordan, these would constantly intermingle, giving us a character's PoV while they were conversing. This added dept to those conversations, but more importantly, this was the way sarcasm or humor would often be injected into the story. I think one reason why Mat fails is that we don't have this constant interplay of thought and conversation. Its blocks of one followed by blocks of other.

 

With someone like Egwene, it simply makes her seem less intelligent. Usually, if she'd heard Elayne say "let the DO be freed", she'd have a lot of thoughts about it. Here, we have to infer it, and that's not exactly done in a good way, especially since we rarely get to read characters physical reactions, facial expressions, etc. either, when they talk.

 

Here's an example of what I mean. The bolded parts are my additions:

 

“Thank you very much for the advice,” Elayne said, “which I will ignore, as I ignored Birgitte when she said the same thing. Mother, what is it you wished to discuss?”

Egwene handed over the letter she had been working on.

Elayne scanned the top of the letter. “To Rand?” Elayne (she) asked.

“You have a different perspective on him than I. Tell me what you think of this letter. I might not send it to him. I haven’t decided yet.”

Elayne's face gave nothing away as she read the letter. She looked serene. As an Aes Sedai should. As a Queen should. How would she react to this? Egwene placed much trust on Elayne. The woman was in love with Rand, but Egwene trusted her to place the rationality of their arguments above her feelings. At least, she added to herself, I hope I can.

“The tone is . . . forceful,” Elayne noted. She did not seem surprised.

“He doesn’t seem to respond to anything else.” Egwene could well remember their arguments as they grew up in Emond's Field. Him saying the most infuriating things. Her trying to make sense. At least, that was the way of it most of the time.

They had thought they would marry, then, yet that hadn't stopped them from rubbing each other the wrong way every so often. Now... now we stand as leaders of the world. An ancient man in the mind of a boy, and a girl bearing a title almost as ancient. They couldn't walk away from each other in a huff this time.

After a moment of reading Elayne lowered the letter. “Perhaps we should simply let him do as he wishes.”

“Break the seals?” Egwene asked, startled. “Release the Dark One?”

“Why not?”, Elayne asked, as if asking why there should be no rain from clouds.

“Light, Elayne!, Egwene said, troubled. If her closest friends doubted her course, what chance did she have of convincing Rand? And Perrin too, as if one mule headed stubborn man weren't enough. All they needed was for Mat to appear, and the entire lot of them could talk sense till they were hoarse, and nothing would change.

“It has to happen, doesn’t it?” Elayne asked. “I mean, the Dark One’s going to escape. He’s practically free already.”

Egwene rubbed her temples, thinking. She chose her words carefully. Elayne's point was not without merit. Perhaps if she had she not had that dream before Rand came, she would have seen things differently too. But now... now she knew. This was not instinct. Not even just the Dream, which she hadn't even revealed to the Wise Ones. The Tower was a treasure trove of obscure knowledge, and on this issue, she had found plenty of useful nuggets. Time to see if they were worth anything.

“There is a difference between touching the world and being free. During the War of Power, the Dark One was never truly released into the world. The Bore let him touch it, but that was resealed before he could escape. If the Dark One had entered the world, the Wheel itself would have been broken. Here, I brought this to show you.”

 

Or something like that, at least. I'd rather Brandon spend time on things like this than on the exact tone of each character. Without something like this, what we get really reads like an unfleshed first draft. We're getting the bare skeleton of the story, with a lot of the flesh missing.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I also remember that a alot of people(I would even say most) swore up and down that the farmer passage in the Prologue of The Gathering Storm was totally Brandon. There was no way RJ could have written that. It was scrutinized to death leading up to release. So much so that it actually wasn't until I started doing my regular pre-release Wheel of Time info research-a-thon just a couple weeks ago that I found out apparently that scene has been confirmed to have been RJ.

You have a problem there, because a recording of that scene in RJ's voice was played at that year's Dragoncon, before the release. No one who was active on this site prior to the release should've been ignorant of who wrote it. And though I don't remember, I can't imagine we would neglect to indicate that fact to anyone who was confused about it.

 

Yeah, I looked into it and you seem to be right.

 

I may be confusing the farmer scene with borderlanders scene from ToM.

 

 

As I recall, the Borderlander scene was well received I know I loved it and most feedback I remember loved it as well. I don't think I have heard a negative about the Borderlander scene, it was one of the best in the book.

[Balefire to da face!]

As I recall, the Borderlander scene was well received I know I loved it and most feedback I remember loved it as well. I don't think I have heard a negative about the Borderlander scene, it was one of the best in the book.

 

Like I said, I think we all view things through our own lens. It problems depends on which threads you participated in, and when. I don't suppose the old board posts are stored somewhere?

[Barid Bel Medar]

As I recall, the Borderlander scene was well received I know I loved it and most feedback I remember loved it as well. I don't think I have heard a negative about the Borderlander scene, it was one of the best in the book.

 

Like I said, I think we all view things through our own lens. It problems depends on which threads you participated in, and when. I don't suppose the old board posts are stored somewhere?

 

Yeah, I can try to find them for you. I will have a look into it, I would be interested to see if what you say is true. I honestly can't remember even the most hardcore anti-Brandon users having a problem with the Borderlander scene though.

 

I'll update when I find something. You can search too if you wanted, it should still be there.

[Suttree]

As I recall, the Borderlander scene was well received I know I loved it and most feedback I remember loved it as well. I don't think I have heard a negative about the Borderlander scene, it was one of the best in the book.

 

Like I said, I think we all view things through our own lens. It problems depends on which threads you participated in, and when. I don't suppose the old board posts are stored somewhere?

 

Yeah, I can try to find them for you. I will have a look into it, I would be interested to see if what you say is true. I honestly can't remember even the most hardcore anti-Brandon users having a problem with the Borderlander scene though.

 

With you on that recollection Barid. That scene was awesome.

[Barid Bel Medar]

So I have some old threads dedicated to the Prologue, I haven't read through it all, but I would be interested to see if there is any negativity about the Borderlanders PoV

 

 

http://www.dragonmou...rologue__st__20

 

http://www.dragonmou...ue#entry1673993

 

http://www.dragonmou...l__tom prologue

 

 

I am sure there are people who complained about Brandon apparently writing the Borderlander scene, I saw one example in my quick read through, however, I believe you were talking about the "hardcore loyalists", and I don't believe that many people reacted as you say about this scene.

 

Edit: Jeez, I even saw my old post in one of those threads, and I was ignorant of who wrote the Borderlander scene at that time, yet I certainly loved it.

 

You can see my opinion at the time, so it is no grudge against Brandon, it has changed over multiple readings where I begin to see the cracks and errors. ( I am not as harsh as some about Brandon's work, but my perception has definitely shifted as I see more of the errors and faults)

[Balefire to da face!]

Ah, I see!

 

I assumed that the boards pruned old topics because all of my old posts from TGS and ToM time frame were removed from My Content page. But I see they are there if you search for them. About time to run off to work, but I will dig into some of it later.

 

Would be fun to reminisce. I was a steadfast supporter of Slayer killing Asmo, so it would be fun to go back and look at some of those threads

[shortkut]

 

 

But yeah, thanks guys, I won't derail the thread any further.

 

No, I think that you helped put a great many things into perspective for people. Instead of objections and protests, you simply asked for an explanation. I think more thinking like this (from everyone) would benefit this thread.

unfortunately, on both sides there are people whose attitudes can be summed up thusly "I am trying to be mature and more people should be like me. I do not want to argue, but I will not stop until you cede your opinion and agree with mine"

[Cybertrolloc]

When this thread hits page 43, I have dibs on shitting it up. Agreed?

[yoniy0]

Definitely not.

[shortkut]

50 is a more appropriate number anyway

[CanUFeelTheLove?]

But yeah, thanks guys, I won't derail the thread any further.

 

No, I think that you helped put a great many things into perspective for people. Instead of objections and protests, you simply asked for an explanation. I think more thinking like this (from everyone) would benefit this thread.

unfortunately, on both sides there are people whose attitudes can be summed up thusly "I am trying to be mature and more people should be like me. I do not want to argue, but I will not stop until you cede your opinion and agree with mine"

 

This is very funny.

I've lurked here for a while. Yes, BS didn't pull off everything perfectly. Some things seemed... hollow. The meeting between Perrin and Mat comes to mind outside of Caemlyn. From what I've read and from what anyone can see, BS wrote the stories in less time than RJ did. BS's work was ok-ed by RJ's wife and staff. There are things that could have been better but there were also things that were done better, IMO. That's pretty much the best I expected buying the last two books. That's not because I knew of BS's work. I had never heard of him before he took up writing these books. That's because I simply did not see anybody coming in and writing RJ's work better than RJ.

 

Reading these 'am I right for criticizing BS's work?' threads, I can only think of something RJ said to someone at one of the conventions. If memory served, someone came up with a crazy balefire hypothetical and questioned RJ about it. RJ then said to the person something like 'get a lover' or 'have an affair'.

 

I've enjoyed the books. I'm glad that they are being finished. I've invested a lot of time into the reading of the series and if they weren't finished it would be a big let down.

 

If someone asked me to be critical, I'd say: Rand and Perrin were done great. Sometimes, even better than they had been done in the later RJ books. The WT parts were good. I'm a bit biased as many of those parts I can't stand anyway. I didn't find them any more frustrating and was glad to see that story line mostly settled.

 

I did think many of Mat's parts were not as good as RJ's. I also understood the reason (or what I think the reason is). As already mentioned, my least favorite Mat moment was his meeting with Perrin - throwing the acorns or pebbles at him from behind some trees. It seemed filled in.

 

There were some definite weird moments. There were also a lot of great ones. All in all, I'm happy with the books. I find that these threads to be somewhat like a smoker who has run out of cigarettes and so picks through an ashtray for the juicier butts to get his/her fix.

 

Maybe I'll get blasted for that last comment, but so be it!

[yoniy0]

Nah, all's good. That's the great thing about opinions - having your own doesn't mean others can't have theirs.

 

Welcome!

[Viperswhip]

I am right there with you CanUFeelTheLove. I also think the lack of internal dialogue has hurt the characterization angle because we don't see the whole picture.

 

While I could appreciate the prose and detail of the latter RJ novels I was not pleased with the lack of progress and the general waywardness of particular storylines. I will admit to not particularly enjoying, say Elayne's storyline in gaining the throne. I won't be alone in saying that Perrin was...post Lord of Chaos, not very fun to read, and nothing will ever make me like Faile.

 

So, when Brandon came along, I read a couple of his books, but unlike WoT, I've never felt a desire to go back to them, I lowered my expectations a fair bit. Brandon has far surpassed those expectations. I have really enjoyed the last two books, though I admit the tone is somewhat different and feel like we moved into the fast lane. I have loved Rand's story, I have adored Nynaeve on a level I never expected, although she was always awesome, her steadfast devotion to the Two River folks, and Rand in particular has been spectacular.

 

I don't know what RJ wrote and and what BS wrote, I may love detail when presented but do not miss it so much when it is not there. I was skipping large parts of the books post LoC on rereads, with those parts growing over time. I do not skip any sections when I reread TGS or ToM.

 

If critical commentary was offered to BS, maybe he should have looked into it. Continuity errors do not bother me too much because, well, the series is a huge number of pages, is 20 years old and I watch enough TV that you kind of half to roll with it or live with frustration.

 

Bottom line, will I reread these books for the rest of my life, yes, so BS has done a good enough, and sometimes great job because I still love the series. If I had more attention to detail, or cared more about such things, I can see being annoyed.

 

Cadsuane felt right to me there, because, well, I have not liked her from the first moment she appeared. I don't dislike her as much as Faile, but I definitely do dislike her. So, her being a supreme bully and using the power on Tam right after he stated that Rand almost used the power on him was funny, and well, fit with how I thought about her. But, I have never invested in her character enough to care if she feels off in any given situation.

[yoniy0]

See, now, that's where the wheels come off the wagon. The fact that you disliked Cadsuane before means that whenever she exhibits unlikable behavior it must be in-character?

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that subjective arguments are super; Everyone has a right to their own impressions. But they cannot, and must not, be applied to the objective arguments.

[OptimusPrime]

This whole thread is a frikkin joke

[Centauri25]

a really, really bad joke.

 

I concur with the poster who referenced RJ: Find a lover.

[Agitel]

a really, really bad joke.

 

I concur with the poster who referenced RJ: Find a lover.

 

There are valid complaints. Sometimes I feel like people are complaining about unworthy topics, though.

[Suttree]

a really, really bad joke.

 

I concur with the poster who referenced RJ: Find a lover.

 

There are valid complaints. Sometimes I feel like people are complaining about unworthy topics, though.

 

Haven't you heard Agitel, were just lucky to get the ending.

 

Not to mention it's far easier for people like the poster above to cast snide remarks than actually articulate what is good/bad about the writing. So literary analysis is a joke apparently...there goes my degree I guess.

 

As an aside I do agree that some topics may have been pushed too far. That is where rational debate should enter in on both sides, we would all be the better for it.

[Viperswhip]

See, now, that's where the wheels come off the wagon. The fact that you disliked Cadsuane before means that whenever she exhibits unlikable behavior it must be in-character?

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that subjective arguments are super; Everyone has a right to their own impressions. But they cannot, and must not, be applied to the objective arguments.

 

Huh? I said I had not invested in her character enough to have any sense of whether a particular action was in character or not. You know, if she started singing a Lady Gaga song and dancing around that would be really bad but I wouldn't think it in character just because I dislike her. It felt right to me though because she is a bully, I am sure she has used the power to flick Rand's ear or ass or tie up some lesbian lovers (not hers), in the past.

[Suttree]

See, now, that's where the wheels come off the wagon. The fact that you disliked Cadsuane before means that whenever she exhibits unlikable behavior it must be in-character?

 

Basically, what I'm saying is that subjective arguments are super; Everyone has a right to their own impressions. But they cannot, and must not, be applied to the objective arguments.

 

Huh? I said I had not invested in her character enough to have any sense of whether a particular action was in character or not. You know, if she started singing a Lady Gaga song and dancing around that would be really bad but I wouldn't think it in character just because I dislike her. It felt right to me though because she is a bully, I am sure she has used the power to flick Rand's ear or ass or tie up some lesbian lovers (not hers), in the past.

 

Here is a good essay from 13th Depository on Cads.

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2010/03/winters-heart-read-through-post-7-about.html

 

She is one of the most often misread characters in the book. Hope it opens your eyes a bit concerning her character. She has had Rand's back harder than anyone aside from Min perhaps and has been instrumental to both his growth and accomplishments such as the Cleansing. It is important to keep in mind she almost unfailingly treats people according to their actions and merits. Bullying is but one tactic she uses to accomplish her goals. We see her size up situations and change tactics based on the situation. Per RJ Cads is a "remarkably adaptable" woman.

[Viperswhip]

I've read it, and the other Cad's defence and Faile defence and all the stuff I can on WoT cuz I lurve it!

 

I do not limit my assessment of Cadsuane to her dealings with Rand. I will give her props for recognizing other people in certain, limited, circumstances (Min), but for the most part, if you don't do what she wants you to, you are in for a hard time.

 

I will admit, it's hard to make to great of an assessment because she has mostly dealt with asshats, but she did basically force 3 Ashaman to become Warders, and though she couldn't bully Dobraine, she did try. I could accept that bullying Rand is a strategy if I saw her use more different strategies elsewhere. I think she recognizes when she is being a blunt instrument (like in Far Madding) but it's the tool she pulls out most often in my opinion.

 

Edit, Oh hell, I was just reading about Nynaeve, whom I adore. If we had seen more of Cadsuane over time and seen some of her great adventures and so on, you know, a larger body of work, I might be more inclined to really like her, if she just didn't bully through all those situations. But, we only get her for a short time and I am not impressed.

[yoniy0]

she did basically force 3 Ashaman to become Warders, and though she couldn't bully Dobraine, she did try. I could accept that bullying Rand is a strategy if I saw her use more different strategies elsewhere.

(a) Did she? They decided to on their own, after Rand left them alone in a city where everyone assumed their boss just went mad and destroyed his own palace. Hardly surprising that they looked for support elsewhere.

(b) When did she try to bully Dobraine? I'm not saying she hasn't, I'm simply not sure where you get that from.

© What about her treatment of Samitsu, then? Doesn't that give you pause?

 

Certainly, though, I agree that if you're in her way you're in for a bad time. Even if reasoning might've worked just as well. Where we might disagree is that I truly believe she'd reason with you whenever reasoning would work better.

 

EDIT:

Oh, regarding her being in-character, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I took this

Cadsuane felt right to me there

as indication that you thought she was.

[Viperswhip]

Rand certainly feels like she blackmailed them into it. Oh look, your leader is crazy, you are traitors (if she said that, I don't know if she did because how could she know), nobody will take you in except me. If you think that's not underhanded manipulation, I definitely do. They most definitely did not come up to her to ask to become Warders and they were sworn to Rand's service.

 

As to her being in character I followed that up with the remainder of the context by saying; to quote "But, I have never invested in her character enough to care if she feels off in any given situation."