You cannot walk so long in the shadow...

[BFG]

LOL that would be hilariuos - their is literally nobody who has walked in the Shadow for longer.

[Carnacarn]

Exactly. If that saying exists, it must have a grain of truth somewhere in a previous age or turning of the wheel

[SesameTree]

Don't know I never had the impression of Moridin being sadistic, dangerously insane and merciless yes, but he doesn't seem to enjoy or care about anything he does.

Unlike other forsaken who hope to gain immortality and power when DO wins he seems resigned that everything will be destroyed with DOs victory. He does what he does

because he believes philosphically that DO will triumph sooner or later, and therefore there isn't any point in resisting him.

 

I could see him getting even more insane, causing him to go berserk and turn against everybody, but not him going over to the light.

 

On the other note I just had crazy idea about dark one theory.

 

What if creator and DO are same being, but with split personality?

That could explain why we never see creator, and it could be more permanent solution Rand speaks about, to switch personalities of the two.

[skalors3]

I don't necessarily see someone actually turning from the shadow (but if I had to stab, I'd say Cydane certainly has the most redemptive qualities). However, I do see the treatment, or mistreatment depending on your perspective, catching up to people like Moridin or SH. I can definitely see one of those two falling to another Chosen as a payback, which, I guess in the end, serves the same purpose.

[Shaidar]

I can see Moridin turning for philosophical reasons.

 

For Hessalem and Cyndane it is currently unrealistic (Moridin has their cour'souvra). Moggy and Demandred might do it for mercenary self-preservation reasons as soon as they figure out what is self-evident to both Moridin and every non-Darkfriend in Randland.

 

But really we have to bear in mind that the last three books were initially planned as one ginormous book. Bearing that in mind I half suspect that AMoL in reality referred to Veins of Gold, and has already happened.

[skalors3]

But really we have to bear in mind that the last three books were initially planned as one ginormous book. Bearing that in mind I half suspect that AMoL in reality referred to Veins of Gold, and has already happened.

 

That's a real possibility. I always assumed it had something to do with the conclusion of the book though.

[Carnacarn]

But then wouldn't VoG have been in the last book then? But he really didn't have a memory of light anyway during VoG. He had thoughts of ending it all, despair, so on. It was the singular thought that he could do something different this time. That each spinning out of his, each turning of the Pattern, is a chance to do something better/different. He didn't have a memory of light then. He had a thought of hope. He could love this time.

[BFG]

^ Referring to that scene the passage actually fits Perrins viewing of it better - Rand on top of DM being consumed by darkness followed by a shaft of light coming out of it.

 

I can see Moridin turning for philosophical reasons.

 

For Hessalem and Cyndane it is currently unrealistic (Moridin has their cour'souvra). Moggy and Demandred might do it for mercenary self-preservation reasons as soon as they figure out what is self-evident to both Moridin and every non-Darkfriend in Randland.

 

But really we have to bear in mind that the last three books were initially planned as one ginormous book. Bearing that in mind I half suspect that AMoL in reality referred to Veins of Gold, and has already happened.

 

 

I thought the only people with cour'souvra were Moggy and Cyndane? - although Moggys been given hers back.

[Wheel of Thyme]

I posted this on another thread, a few months ago. I still think it will be Graendal/ Hessalem who comes back to the light. In the books, Hessalam supposedly means "utterly without forgiveness", but, if you put Hessalam and only Hessalam in Google the results are rather different. Ignoring all the Wheel of Time references, "Aleh hes-salaam" refers to one of the names of Christ, at least among Muslims, so I understand if I read the sites correctly. Robert Jordan was known for twisting words and phrases, maybe this is the clue.

[dhammett11]

I posted this on another thread, a few months ago. I still think it will be Graendal/ Hessalem who comes back to the light. In the books, Hessalam supposedly means "utterly without forgiveness", but, if you put Hessalam and only Hessalam in Google the results are rather different. Ignoring all the Wheel of Time references, "Aleh hes-salaam" refers to one of the names of Christ, at least among Muslims, so I understand if I read the sites correctly. Robert Jordan was known for twisting words and phrases, maybe this is the clue.

 

Interesting. Could also be an indication as to how thoroughly Graendal is being tortured.

[BFG]

^^ nice catch on the Hassalem - utterly without forgiveness, also ties in loosely to the Catholic repent sins thing (not Catholic, don't really understand).

[Balefire to da face!]

I believe Moridin might turn. But only in one way. Rand being philosofic (sp?) and convincing him that the Light CAN defeat the Dark One forever, instead of what Moridin thinks, a draw every time until the DO wins.

 

(if the staff/admins mind me using colored posts outside Social Groups, just PM me please. I'm normally not here, so I don't know it)

 

I was thinking this, as well.

 

From what we know of Ishy, if Rand could convince him they could defeat the DO once and for all, it could appeal to him philosophically. As I think it's more then a little hinted at that Ishydin betrayed the Light for exactly the reason you gave. The one that makes sense when you think about it. If all the Light can do is break even for eternity, and one win for the Shadow means eternal victory......then eventually it's going to happen.

 

It would also be a nice full circle theme where the guy most embedded in the Shadow, other then the Dark One himself, comes back to the Light.

 

The reason I don't see it happening is because I no longer see a probable aim of Rand to be eternal victory, but simple victory. I heard some good theories on it at one time, but I just don't think it's in the cards.

 

Still, like I said in my original post, a deathbed conversion from Ishydin to perhaps use the TP to buffer Rand using the OP in some way to forge a permenent prison for the DO would be a climax I wouldn't mind seeing. Or maybe Buddah Rand simply convinces Ishy there is a small hope. We don't really know how/why Ishy seems to know so much about the eternal battle, but it seems more academic then personal. So maybe Ishy doesn't realize that he has turned back to the light before, and will again. It would be quite a sight to see Buddha Rand give a memory of light, just enough hope, to the Betrayer of Hope to convince him the smallest sliver of hope to defeat the Dark One is better then giving in.....

[Viperswhip]

The thing for the Forsaken is, only Lanfear makes any real sense, if we assume she was once a good person but with the obvious flaw of a desire for power. It certainly seems the Aiel who served her were not unhappy in their service. We have no indication she did anything bad before accidentally freeing the DO, and I can totally see going bad if I accidentally released the devil into the world.

 

Ishy cannot possibly be convinced by Rand, who he considers to be stupid, that the DO can be permanently defeated. Maybe if there is a Darth Vader/Emperor moment, but as epic as that scene was, I don't want to see it in WoT lol

 

Graendel, we have no reason to believe she was ever good but this is a woman who crushed men's spirits for fun, she does not consider anyone else other than as a possible piece in a collection. If you are suggesting it's a squeeze to hard on a bar of soap situation, I suppose, but I am looking for real redemption in this situation, not just renouncing the DO.

[Suttree]

The thing for the Forsaken is, only Lanfear makes any real sense, if we assume she was once a good person but with the obvious flaw of a desire for power. It certainly seems the Aiel who served her were not unhappy in their service. We have no indication she did anything bad before accidentally freeing the DO, and I can totally see going bad if I accidentally released the devil into the world.

 

Nah, RJ was clear that isn't what caused it.

 

RJ

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore—I have heard the theory advanced—of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

She had flaws beyond a thirst for power. Despite her power with the OP those flaws held her back from ever gaining the third name. There is no mistake that she never gained that honor in a world which cherished selflessness and sacrifice over all else.

[Owyn]

IMO its going to be Slayer/Luc

 

Remember, Luc was told to go to the blight by a non-darkfriend foreteller. I believe something was said like "the last battle depends on it"

 

And in the prologue, we get a viewpoint of slayer and its decidedly NOT evil. Sure, he is a cold, hard man who likes hunting (everything) but that doesnt necessarily make him a "join the dark one and let everything burn" guy either. His viewpoint on his childhood and the pity he shows to the other children seen in the city is assuredly not something a true darkfriend would think.

[Viperswhip]

Ya, his Mom kind of chose this life for him. Still, he does like killing people, but he can do that for the good guys, welcome to Randland Dexter.

[Ian Ohlander]

Don't know I never had the impression of Moridin being sadistic, dangerously insane and merciless yes, but he doesn't seem to enjoy or care about anything he does.

 

Actually, Ishydin has been sadistic throught the series. Not just cruel for practical reasons, but actually enjoying it, to some extent. We see this in his dealings with the boys when they first leave home, as well as his treatment of DF's who fail. Howal Gode, who was burned to death by Rand in Four Kings (in EOTW) is a good example. In TAR, after his death, Ishy treats him (his soul anyway) like a dog.

"Yes, my good hound. Here is your reward."

Rand looked at Gode just in time to see the man's body crumble to dust. For an instant the burned face held a look of sublime joy that turned to horror in the final moment, as if he had seen something waiting he did not expect.

 

There is this scene in the first book, in one of Rand's dreams.

Strange oval stones made the fireplace; they just looked like stones, wet-slick despite the fire, when he

looked straight at them, but when he glimpsed them from the corner of his eye they seemed to be faces instead, the faces of men and women writhing in anguish, screaming silently.

 

This fireplace with the soul-stones appears through the EoTW and again in TGS, the stones have been burned.

 

In the final book's prologue, we see this observation by Moggy:

Once, [ishydin] would have delighted in holding a cour’souvra for one of his rivals. He would have invented punishments, thrilled in her agony. There had been some of that at the start; then… he had lost interest. He spent more and more time alone, staring into flames, brooding. The punishments he had administered to her and Cyndane had seemed almost routine.

.....

 

Through [the surface of the water] it she could see people very distinctly. They floated with their legs chained to something deep below, arms bound behind them.They swayed like kelp.

 

There were thousands of them. Each of them looked up at the sky with wide, horrified eyes. They were locked in a perpetual state of drowning. Not dead, not allowed to die, but constantly gasping for air and finding only water. As she watched, something dark reached up from below and pulled one of them down into the depths. Blood rose like a blooming flower; it caused the others to struggle all the more urgently. Moghedien smiled. It did her good to see someone other than herself suffering. These might simply be figments, but it was possible that they were ones who had failed the Great Lord.

 

And then there's this quote:

QUESTION

 

 

And now, just for fun:

Who's nastier: Moridin, or Padan Fain?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Still Moridin, by a long shot.

 

Clearly Moridin is still a very bad person, even though he is a nihilist. His use of cruelty doesn't just seem to be a means to an end, but something that he enjoys, at least on some level (though as Moggy says, his interest has waned. This may be some personality bleed-thru from Rand, though). His treatment of Lanfear every night in TAR is another good example ('he flays me every night...')

 

But regardless of the level of interest he has in, human suffering doesn't seem to be just a tool but is aesthetically pleasing to him. He find solace in being in environments that depict real or imagined suffering.

 

 

Not sure what that says about the psychology of this man and his likelihood of returning to the light.

[Viperswhip]

Unless he flays Lanfear because he is attracted to her (in a very bad way), I don't really get what she did that was so wrong. I am not even sure she was trying to kill Rand, she was certainly going to capture or kill him, but it's not like Rhavin wasn't trying to kill him later that day. I guess that's why Moridin helped Rand with Sammael because Sammy was trying to kill him, against orders, but this punishment for Lanfear seems overly harsh. I may not be remembering correctly but really the only thing she failed alone at was attacking Rand.

 

In the meantime she caused more chaos (through Asmo and the Shaido, with an assist from Sammy), than any other Forsaken.

 

Granted she didn't shine at the Cleansing but none of the others did either.

 

So, I am not saying she will be the one to turn away from the Shadow, but I think she leads Moridin as a contender. Slayer likes killing innocent creatures and people too much. We haven't been given any indication that in the current age Lanfear has done anything of the sort. But, I am a sucker for a pretty lady.

[Stevros]

If we are really going for someone turning away from the dark, surely the most surprising would be Shaidar Haran, I mean is it even possible for a Myrddraal to turn to the light?

[Suttree]

If we are really going for someone turning away from the dark, surely the most surprising would be Shaidar Haran, I mean is it even possible for a Myrddraal to turn to the light?

Seeing as how Shadar Haran is the "shadowy" avatar of the DO himself that would be quite the turn of events.