elaboration on a theory

[clu7ch]

So i read the WoT if concerning Fain and the last battle, got my head going. Mostly because I really don't like him, i've avoided thinking about him too much, he was more of a testicular cancer to rand's livestrong bracelet sa'angreal.

 

But Mordeth? i recently stumbled onto stuff i didn't know, namely that Mordeth was a PERSON! I like learning things i didn't know.

Furthermore, I learned that via interview with Brandon, Mordeth had visited the finns.

 

I really really like the Finns (you don't quite understand how much)

 

So here's my theory.

 

Supposing he visited the Aelfinn. We know that these visitors are granted three questions, and questions concerning the shadow are often times answered with death or madness. First of all, I would love to know why. They're called the 'near ancient' So many people shrug this dislike for the shadow off as 'who wants to piss the shadow off' and be done with it.

 

I don't like that.

 

I'm supposing that maddness was what Mordeth got, at least for one of his answers. The other two, maybe prophetic advice, and locations of great other-evil magics.

 

So lets say, that afterwards, he visited the other more foxy people. They probably gave him something he was looking for, at a price. blah blah. That's really not important. Gifts are nice, but whatever.

 

Essentially, I theorize that the finn's in fact imparted Mordeth with the knowledge and ability to destroy the dark one, it's made him insane and whatnot, and that insanity has clearly transferred to Fain, but I think that in cyclical pattern, Mordeth will be the cure for the common dark one.

[skalors3]

That could be valid.

 

I always assumed that he asked the Finn's for the power to aide in the defeat of the DO (or something of that nature) and that was what he got. Just not in the way he expected. Rand definitely would not be in a position to defeat the DO if he never cleansed Saidin if not for Mordeth. There are many factors that led up to that moment that would not have occured had Fain not been an antagonist to Rand. No background proof, just a feeling I had.

[MarkDiLillo]

I like the theory that Mordeth got his "powers" in some form from the Finns. Some people claim that this is implied by the name given to the Finns world (Sidhol) but if this is the case then it was poorly done by the author/TJ. Aridhol parallels Sidhol is the implication.

[skalors3]

I like the theory that Mordeth got his "powers" in some form from the Finns. Some people claim that this is implied by the name given to the Finns world (Sidhol) but if this is the case then it was poorly done by the author/TJ. Aridhol parallels Sidhol is the implication.

 

If it was intentionally implied, why was it poorly done? I am curious.

[Sid]

I never knew about that question to Brandon. A very straightforward answer too.

 

I like the idea that Mordeth either asked them how to defeat the Shadow/DO or demanded to be able to play a part in the Shadow/DO's downfall, or both things. Assuming he didn't have the Rhuidean doorway available it would have taken some crafty maneuvering and luck to make it to the Chamber of Bonds, and then back out again.

 

TBH, I'm not sure what to think of the name Sidhol...

[Amandera]

I always assumed that he asked the Finn's for the power to aide in the defeat of the DO (or something of that nature) and that was what he got. Just not in the way he expected. Rand definitely would not be in a position to defeat the DO if he never cleansed Saidin if not for Mordeth. There are many factors that led up to that moment that would not have occured had Fain not been an antagonist to Rand. No background proof, just a feeling I had.

I like this. It makes sense.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I never knew about that question to Brandon. A very straightforward answer too.

 

I like the idea that Mordeth either asked them how to defeat the Shadow/DO or demanded to be able to play a part in the Shadow/DO's downfall, or both things. Assuming he didn't have the Rhuidean doorway available it would have taken some crafty maneuvering and luck to make it to the Chamber of Bonds, and then back out again.

 

Not all that much. I could see Mordeth asking the snakes how to enter the Tower of Ghenjei and leave again alive and I think the Foxes would have allowed him to leave seeing what he did in the world after he left. We know since Moridin and Slayer both entered and left it and from all the stories that Mat's expedition wasn't the first who left the TOG alive his was just the first to make it out on their own terms.

 

I could see Mordeth demanding the means to destroy the Shadow and the Foxes setting madness as their price. And to tie Demandred into things those means could have been something Demandred developed before he changed sides to the Shadow. A ter'angreal which could destroy even the Shadow, but the side effects were far too dangerous for LTT while Demandred saw them as a necessary sacrifice.

[putts]

I would think the dagger gets involved as well. We know that any piece of treasure carried out would cause the problems that faced Mat in the first 2 books and that explains all the things that came after ... but it doesn't explain why Mordeth was so upset when Mat took it.

 

It also doesn't explain why Fain would go through all the trouble of getting into the White Tower just to steal it back if all he really had to do was go back to Shadar Logoth and pick up any old piece of the treasure to resume the contamination. Besides the obvious plot interest, what is so special about this particular piece of the treasure? If it had been a "gift" from the Eelfinn then it not only came at a great cost but also would have something special ingrained into it. Possibly the ability to destroy the DO?

 

I know the focus on this thread up to here has been about the questions to the Aelfinn but I'd be much more interested with what he received from the Eelfinn ... and whether the dagger was one of them.

[thisguy]

I would think the dagger gets involved as well. We know that any piece of treasure carried out would cause the problems that faced Mat in the first 2 books and that explains all the things that came after ... but it doesn't explain why Mordeth was so upset when Mat took it.

 

It also doesn't explain why Fain would go through all the trouble of getting into the White Tower just to steal it back if all he really had to do was go back to Shadar Logoth and pick up any old piece of the treasure to resume the contamination. Besides the obvious plot interest, what is so special about this particular piece of the treasure? If it had been a "gift" from the Eelfinn then it not only came at a great cost but also would have something special ingrained into it. Possibly the ability to destroy the DO?

 

I know the focus on this thread up to here has been about the questions to the Aelfinn but I'd be much more interested with what he received from the Eelfinn ... and whether the dagger was one of them.

I always wondered the same thing - there must have been another dagger or knife, or at least a fork back at SL for Mordeth.

[Aquarius]

I would think the dagger gets involved as well. We know that any piece of treasure carried out would cause the problems that faced Mat in the first 2 books and that explains all the things that came after ... but it doesn't explain why Mordeth was so upset when Mat took it.

 

It also doesn't explain why Fain would go through all the trouble of getting into the White Tower just to steal it back if all he really had to do was go back to Shadar Logoth and pick up any old piece of the treasure to resume the contamination. Besides the obvious plot interest, what is so special about this particular piece of the treasure? If it had been a "gift" from the Eelfinn then it not only came at a great cost but also would have something special ingrained into it. Possibly the ability to destroy the DO?

 

I know the focus on this thread up to here has been about the questions to the Aelfinn but I'd be much more interested with what he received from the Eelfinn ... and whether the dagger was one of them.

I always wondered the same thing - there must have been another dagger or knife, or at least a fork back at SL for Mordeth.

I had assumed that "Fain" (i.e. Mordeth + DO-distilled soul darkfriend Fain) would have some trouble, because of the Fain part, to go back to Shadar Logoth. Enough at least to justify going to Tar Valon instead of there.

[thisguy]

I would think the dagger gets involved as well. We know that any piece of treasure carried out would cause the problems that faced Mat in the first 2 books and that explains all the things that came after ... but it doesn't explain why Mordeth was so upset when Mat took it.

 

It also doesn't explain why Fain would go through all the trouble of getting into the White Tower just to steal it back if all he really had to do was go back to Shadar Logoth and pick up any old piece of the treasure to resume the contamination. Besides the obvious plot interest, what is so special about this particular piece of the treasure? If it had been a "gift" from the Eelfinn then it not only came at a great cost but also would have something special ingrained into it. Possibly the ability to destroy the DO?

 

I know the focus on this thread up to here has been about the questions to the Aelfinn but I'd be much more interested with what he received from the Eelfinn ... and whether the dagger was one of them.

I always wondered the same thing - there must have been another dagger or knife, or at least a fork back at SL for Mordeth.

I had assumed that "Fain" (i.e. Mordeth + DO-distilled soul darkfriend Fain) would have some trouble, because of the Fain part, to go back to Shadar Logoth. Enough at least to justify going to Tar Valon instead of there.

You may be right, but why would that be?

[hjustinpace]

If I recall correctly, at some point we get some inner monologue from Fain (the Mordeth side, really) that he is afraid to go back to Shadar Logoth because he thinks he might be trapped again if he does.

[GYLD]

I remember that particular POV as well, though not quite which book it is from. Though if Fain/Mordeth does genuinely fear being trapped in Shadar Logath again, it doesn't explain why he couldn't send one of his corrupted flunkeys in to the city to grab something and leave.

[MarkDiLillo]

I like the theory that Mordeth got his "powers" in some form from the Finns. Some people claim that this is implied by the name given to the Finns world (Sidhol) but if this is the case then it was poorly done by the author/TJ. Aridhol parallels Sidhol is the implication.

 

If it was intentionally implied, why was it poorly done? I am curious.

 

I actually meant to delete that part saying it was poorly done. But my thinking was that Aridhol was named prior to Mordeths arrival, and Sidhol was named during the Age of legends. That means that Mordeth did not influence the name Aridhol whatsoever and it was pure coincidence that they are named similar from an in-book context. I suppose it could just be a Randland coincidence, but a clue for readers just to give us a hint.

[herid]

It's an interesting tidbit that Mordeth visited the Finns I didn't know of that quote by BS. But I wouldn't get overexcited about it. I have a feeling this is mostly a backstory filler to give more info on where he learned all those evil things. I doubt BS would have revealed it if it was a serious spoiler for what's to come in AMOL.

[skalors3]

I like the theory that Mordeth got his "powers" in some form from the Finns. Some people claim that this is implied by the name given to the Finns world (Sidhol) but if this is the case then it was poorly done by the author/TJ. Aridhol parallels Sidhol is the implication.

 

If it was intentionally implied, why was it poorly done? I am curious.

 

I actually meant to delete that part saying it was poorly done. But my thinking was that Aridhol was named prior to Mordeths arrival, and Sidhol was named during the Age of legends. That means that Mordeth did not influence the name Aridhol whatsoever and it was pure coincidence that they are named similar from an in-book context. I suppose it could just be a Randland coincidence, but a clue for readers just to give us a hint.

 

That makes sense Mark. Thanks for the clarification.

[skalors3]

It's an interesting tidbit that Mordeth visited the Finns I didn't know of that quote by BS. But I wouldn't get overexcited about it. I have a feeling this is mostly a backstory filler to give more info on where he learned all those evil things. I doubt BS would have revealed it if it was a serious spoiler for what's to come in AMOL.

 

I don't think it is something we'll ever know the answer about within the books. It may come out though. However, it is definitely interesting; it is implied that this was something in RJ's notes, so it was important to him.

[Suttree]

@skalors3

 

Would you mind just editing the previous post instead of double posting. Makes the thread flow much better. Thanks mate!

[mbuehner]

Very interesting. We also know that Ishamael was active around the same time as Mordeth would have visited the Finns. Perhaps it was Ishamael who provided the means for him to enter and leave as part of a larger plot. Moridin certainly seemed to know his way around Finnland.

 

There are also some larger mysteries that have similarities here. How was Ishmael only partially trapped in the first place? How was Mordeth trapped in SL, and is there a connection to the way the Forsaken were trapped in the bore? Does Mordeth have a score to settle with Moridin (wouldnt it be ironic if one Ishamaels plots came back two thousand years later to bite him)? Was the dagger a T'A from Finnland (seems quite likely) and if so, what does it ultimately do? I kinda like the theory that its a DO killa.

[hjustinpace]

This revelation about Mordeth makes sense in part because we know his evil predates the man. In tEotW Aginor describes the dagger (or rather, it's essence, I don't buy that the dagger itself is special) as "an old thing, an old friend, an old enemy.”

[putts]

Also, look at what the major 3 get in tEotW ...

• Rand gains the ability to channel
  
• Perrin gains the wolf senses
  
• Mat gains .... the dagger
  

 

Sure, they all get other abilities and weapons as the books go on but I just think it'd be fitting for it all to come full circle and for Mat's Dagger to play some role in the LB ... even if not wielded by him directly.

[FarShainMael]

Also, look at what the major 3 get in tEotW ...

• Rand gains the ability to channel
  
• Perrin gains the wolf senses
  
• Mat gains .... the dagger
  

 

Sure, they all get other abilities and weapons as the books go on but I just think it'd be fitting for it all to come full circle and for Mat's Dagger to play some role in the LB ... even if not wielded by him directly.

 

It's interesting that Mat remembers the dagger in TGS27. The Band has reached a place which was once Coremanda (according to Thom) and Mat pulls out a memory of seeing Doreille, queen of Aridhol (aka SL), there. That in turn brings back memories of SL and the dagger:

 

Mat hadn't felt the pull of the ruby dagger in a very long time. He was nearly beginning to forget what it had been like to be tied to it, if it was possible to forget such a thing. But sometimes he remembered that ruby, red like his own blood. And the old lust, the old desire, would seep into him again..

 

At the very least, this indicates that Mat would become aware of Fain's presence if their paths crossed!