Need in Tel'aran'rhiod

[Stevros]

In LoC Chapter 13, before finding the Bowl of Winds using the Need ability in TAR, Elayne and Nynaeve use need (focusing on something to help Rand). And end up in the angreal store in the white tower, before deciding it is pointless to continue and end up trying to go elsewhere.

 

I initially assumed it was the horn of Valere, that took them there, as it is where Fain gets his dagger back from, but TFoH Chapter 19, Fain seems to imply that the horn is not in the same place as he does not think he has time to go and get it.

 

So what could it be my thoughts include the following:

 

1. The other super sa'angreal for men that Lanfear seems to imply exists in TSR Chapter 9. (or even any other male angreal or sa'angreal)

2. The Ring of Tamyrlin.

3. Horn of Valere (Fain thought he best run quick and didn't have chance to get it even though its near.)

4. Another weather ter'angreal.

5. A.N.Other item?!?!

 

My other point is have either Nynaeve or Elayne remembered that they stumbled across this storeroom and now that Egwene is in charge of the tower thought to inform her of the fact Rand NEED's it and thought to bring it to FoM?

[thisguy]

It's a good question. Someone else asked it once before. I really have no idea but I think you've probably hit upon the most probable options.

[Amandera]

Nice one.

 

I think Siuan would put the Horn of Valere in some dusted corner of the Tower that no one uses, and we already know about the Horn so I don't think RJ would give us more foreshadowing about it..

It shouldn't be limited to male angreal because they are looking for something to help Rand. That doesn't really narrow it down to something Rand has to use personally, he didn't use Bowl of the Winds for example. If it's a female angreal and we go by stronger the better, it's Vora's sa'angreal. If it's a male one, I would imagine Callandor is good enough for Rand.

LTT might be wearing Ring of Tamyrlin at the time of his death, so it might be toast. But who knows?

 

I think a ter'angreal is most likely. Not a counterpart of Bowl of the Winds, though, something else.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Nice one.

 

I think Siuan would put the Horn of Valere in some dusted corner of the Tower that no one uses, and we already know about the Horn so I don't think RJ would give us more foreshadowing about it..

It shouldn't be limited to male angreal because they are looking for something to help Rand. That doesn't really narrow it down to something Rand has to use personally, he didn't use Bowl of the Winds for example. If it's a female angreal and we go by stronger the better, it's Vora's sa'angreal. If it's a male one, I would imagine Callandor is good enough for Rand.

LTT might be wearing Ring of Tamyrlin at the time of his death, so it might be toast. But who knows?

 

I think a ter'angreal is most likely. Not a counterpart of Bowl of the Winds, though, something else.

LTT was not wearing the Ring of Tamyrlin at the time of his death. Two minutes before LTT nuked himself, Ishy points out that he once wore the Ring.

 

Edit: clarification

[BFG]

I've just reread that part of LoC - Nyns thoughts actually change as she uses need

 

It's not specifically stated at the beginning what their need is but it's implied that it's a ter'angreal to help bring the SAS to Rand, In the back of Nyns mind is that she wants to leave Salidar. But when they realise they're heading for a ter-angreal in the Tower they think:

Need. A ter'angreal. Not in Tar Valon. Need.

 

Not a bit of Rand in there :) I wonder if this means the need took them to the thing that the world most needed? (The bowl didn't really do anything to specifically help Rand, although Elaynes lie helped, but the weather was doing a good job of destroying the world.) Possible both times - in their first attempt the need isn't specifically defined on the page.

[Amandera]

Nice one.

 

I think Siuan would put the Horn of Valere in some dusted corner of the Tower that no one uses, and we already know about the Horn so I don't think RJ would give us more foreshadowing about it..

It shouldn't be limited to male angreal because they are looking for something to help Rand. That doesn't really narrow it down to something Rand has to use personally, he didn't use Bowl of the Winds for example. If it's a female angreal and we go by stronger the better, it's Vora's sa'angreal. If it's a male one, I would imagine Callandor is good enough for Rand.

LTT might be wearing Ring of Tamyrlin at the time of his death, so it might be toast. But who knows?

 

I think a ter'angreal is most likely. Not a counterpart of Bowl of the Winds, though, something else.

LTT was not wearing the Ring of Tamyrlin at the time of his death. Two minutes before LTT nuked himself, Ishy points out that he once wore the Ring.

 

Edit: clarification

It doesn't necessarily have to be that literal. Ishamael talks about how LTT goes from the most respected man to a wretch. He may not be referring to the actual object.

[Stevros]

I've just reread that part of LoC - Nyns thoughts actually change as she uses need

 

It's not specifically stated at the beginning what their need is but it's implied that it's a ter'angreal to help bring the SAS to Rand, In the back of Nyns mind is that she wants to leave Salidar. But when they realise they're heading for a ter-angreal in the Tower they think:

Need. A ter'angreal. Not in Tar Valon. Need.

 

Not a bit of Rand in there :) I wonder if this means the need took them to the thing that the world most needed? (The bowl didn't really do anything to specifically help Rand, although Elaynes lie helped, but the weather was doing a good job of destroying the world.) Possible both times - in their first attempt the need isn't specifically defined on the page.

 

Good point the Bowl of Wind definitely seems better suited to the worlds need than to Rand's.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Nice one.

 

I think Siuan would put the Horn of Valere in some dusted corner of the Tower that no one uses, and we already know about the Horn so I don't think RJ would give us more foreshadowing about it..

It shouldn't be limited to male angreal because they are looking for something to help Rand. That doesn't really narrow it down to something Rand has to use personally, he didn't use Bowl of the Winds for example. If it's a female angreal and we go by stronger the better, it's Vora's sa'angreal. If it's a male one, I would imagine Callandor is good enough for Rand.

LTT might be wearing Ring of Tamyrlin at the time of his death, so it might be toast. But who knows?

 

I think a ter'angreal is most likely. Not a counterpart of Bowl of the Winds, though, something else.

LTT was not wearing the Ring of Tamyrlin at the time of his death. Two minutes before LTT nuked himself, Ishy points out that he once wore the Ring.

 

Edit: clarification

It doesn't necessarily have to be that literal. Ishamael talks about how LTT goes from the most respected man to a wretch. He may not be referring to the actual object.

I do not have my books with me, but he does in fact refer to the actual object. Tamyrlin was not a title, so what would Ishy be referring to if not the actual ring?

[Amandera]

Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you! A pitiful, shattered wretch.

He goes on a bit. His main point is LTT's fall from grace. I'm just saying it may not be really a reference to the object of Power he wears, but what that object symbolizes: being the leader of Aes Sedai.

[Neophyte]

Truthfully, there's no reason to believe that the Ring of Tamyrlin is an object of Power at all, any more than the Amyrlin's stole or the Keeper's staff.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you! A pitiful, shattered wretch.

He goes on a bit. His main point is LTT's fall from grace. I'm just saying it may not be really a reference to the object of Power he wears, but what that object symbolizes: being the leader of Aes Sedai.

Ya, I get his rant. I have posted about it before. My point is Ishy speaks in the past tense. LTT no longer wears the ring. He is no longer in that position as leader of the forces of Light. The ring did not get nuked.

[Amandera]

Truthfully, there's no reason to believe that the Ring of Tamyrlin is an object of Power at all, any more than the Amyrlin's stole or the Keeper's staff.

There is certainly no proof. Reason is this though: http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Ring_of_Tamyrlin or http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/oddments-allied-to-terangreal.html#tamyrlin

 

Elan Morin grimaced. "Look at you," he said scornfully. "Once you stood first among the Servants. Once you wore the Ring of Tamyrlin, and sat in the High Seat. Once you summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion. Now look at you! A pitiful, shattered wretch.

He goes on a bit. His main point is LTT's fall from grace. I'm just saying it may not be really a reference to the object of Power he wears, but what that object symbolizes: being the leader of Aes Sedai.

Ya, I get his rant. I have posted about it before. My point is Ishy speaks in the past tense. LTT no longer wears the ring. He is no longer in that position as leader of the forces of Light. The ring did not get nuked.

I don't think the Ring's fate is that clear. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Neophyte]

Truthfully, there's no reason to believe that the Ring of Tamyrlin is an object of Power at all, any more than the Amyrlin's stole or the Keeper's staff.

There is certainly no proof. Reason is this though: http://wot.wikia.com...ing_of_Tamyrlin or http://13depository....l.html#tamyrlin

 

Yes, I've seen it before. None of those sources provide any reason other than its connection to the name "Tamyrlin," and her/his unconfirmed but legendary status as the first channeler. Which is why both my examples are both ceremonial objects named for a person who can channel which have no connection to the Power.

 

For that reason, there also isn't a compelling reason to be interested in its fate, although it is almost certainly correct that Lews Therin would not have been wearing it at the time of his death. If I had to guess who was in possession of it at that point in time, my guess would be Latra Posae.

[XoMeltdownoX]

I agree with Neo. I have never believed the ring to be an item of power, but I just do not believe it was destroyed in LTT's fiery death.

[Stevros]

The other thing I've just noticed (thanks to encyclopaedia WoT) is that the chapter has a Forsaken icon to it and the chapter itself has nothing in it that seems to directly link to the forsaken?

[fionwe1987]

In LoC Chapter 13, before finding the Bowl of Winds using the Need ability in TAR, Elayne and Nynaeve use need (focusing on something to help Rand). And end up in the angreal store in the white tower, before deciding it is pointless to continue and end up trying to go elsewhere.

 

I initially assumed it was the horn of Valere, that took them there, as it is where Fain gets his dagger back from, but TFoH Chapter 19, Fain seems to imply that the horn is not in the same place as he does not think he has time to go and get it.

 

So what could it be my thoughts include the following:

 

1. The other super sa'angreal for men that Lanfear seems to imply exists in TSR Chapter 9. (or even any other male angreal or sa'angreal)

2. The Ring of Tamyrlin.

3. Horn of Valere (Fain thought he best run quick and didn't have chance to get it even though its near.)

4. Another weather ter'angreal.

5. A.N.Other item?!?!

 

My other point is have either Nynaeve or Elayne remembered that they stumbled across this storeroom and now that Egwene is in charge of the tower thought to inform her of the fact Rand NEED's it and thought to bring it to FoM?

Oh this is easy enough. Before they enter the storeroom, they're in a tapestry lined hallway of the Tower, and Egwene appears there briefly. They dismiss it, but obviously, what they needed to tie the Hall of the Tower to Rand was Egwene. Tel'aran'rhiod pushed them towards a meeting with Egwene, but the time was not yet exactly right.

[BFG]

In LoC Chapter 13, before finding the Bowl of Winds using the Need ability in TAR, Elayne and Nynaeve use need (focusing on something to help Rand). And end up in the angreal store in the white tower, before deciding it is pointless to continue and end up trying to go elsewhere.

 

I initially assumed it was the horn of Valere, that took them there, as it is where Fain gets his dagger back from, but TFoH Chapter 19, Fain seems to imply that the horn is not in the same place as he does not think he has time to go and get it.

 

So what could it be my thoughts include the following:

 

1. The other super sa'angreal for men that Lanfear seems to imply exists in TSR Chapter 9. (or even any other male angreal or sa'angreal)

2. The Ring of Tamyrlin.

3. Horn of Valere (Fain thought he best run quick and didn't have chance to get it even though its near.)

4. Another weather ter'angreal.

5. A.N.Other item?!?!

 

My other point is have either Nynaeve or Elayne remembered that they stumbled across this storeroom and now that Egwene is in charge of the tower thought to inform her of the fact Rand NEED's it and thought to bring it to FoM?

Oh this is easy enough. Before they enter the storeroom, they're in a tapestry lined hallway of the Tower, and Egwene appears there briefly. They dismiss it, but obviously, what they needed to tie the Hall of the Tower to Rand was Egwene. Tel'aran'rhiod pushed them towards a meeting with Egwene, but the time was not yet exactly right.

 

That's true, but as they continued with Need it took them to the ter'angreal/angreal/sa'angreal store-room. Surely if it was Eg that they needed they'd have followed her (although the idea of them chasing Eg, and the expression on her face as they did, is great!). Additionally at the time she wasn't Amyrlin, so at the time she wasn't what Rand needed.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Same reason the characters all stay in their palaces/tents/homes and listen to distant rumors on what's going on elsewhere, despite having the ability to teleport anywhere they wish on the planet. Seriously, if Moridin wants to kill Perrin and Mat so badly, why not open a gateway to wherever in the world they are staying at the moment, throw in a tremendous fireball, and celebrate victory with Shaidar Haran over a dozen female virgins?

 

Instead he has his underlings order their underlings to tell their underlings' underlings to hatch some convoluted plot which may or may not threaten the target's loved one's great aunt's beloved pet cat, hoping to draw out the target at some point during the yearly quarter. JUST OPEN A GATEWAY AND SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE, YOU DINGUS. You're all-powerful, he's got a hammer.

 

 

So yeah, you have to turn off your brain when you read this series. It's a genre thing. WoT is a fantasy-theme soap opera, and the characters only use valuable supernatural skills when the author feels it moves the story ahead. Not when they would have logically done so.

[JakeBarnes]

That's true, but as they continued with Need it took them to the ter'angreal/angreal/sa'angreal store-room. Surely if it was Eg that they needed they'd have followed her (although the idea of them chasing Eg, and the expression on her face as they did, is great!). Additionally at the time she wasn't Amyrlin, so at the time she wasn't what Rand needed.

 

What they asked for was something to tie the Salidar Aes Sedai to Rand, not an Amyrlin. Egwene did tie the Salidar Aes Sedai to Rand.

[thisguy]

Same reason the characters all stay in their palaces/tents/homes and listen to distant rumors on what's going on elsewhere, despite having the ability to teleport anywhere they wish on the planet. Seriously, if Moridin wants to kill Perrin and Mat so badly, why not open a gateway to wherever in the world they are staying at the moment, throw in a tremendous fireball, and celebrate victory with Shaidar Haran over a dozen female virgins?

 

Instead he has his underlings order their underlings to tell their underlings' underlings to hatch some convoluted plot which may or may not threaten the target's loved one's great aunt's beloved pet cat, hoping to draw out the target at some point during the yearly quarter. JUST OPEN A GATEWAY AND SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE, YOU DINGUS. You're all-powerful, he's got a hammer.

 

 

So yeah, you have to turn off your brain when you read this series. It's a genre thing. WoT is a fantasy-theme soap opera, and the characters only use valuable supernatural skills when the author feels it moves the story ahead. Not when they would have logically done so.

 

Hilarious. Thanks for the morning laugh, man.

[Glokta]

Same reason the characters all stay in their palaces/tents/homes and listen to distant rumors on what's going on elsewhere, despite having the ability to teleport anywhere they wish on the planet. Seriously, if Moridin wants to kill Perrin and Mat so badly, why not open a gateway to wherever in the world they are staying at the moment, throw in a tremendous fireball, and celebrate victory with Shaidar Haran over a dozen female virgins?

 

Instead he has his underlings order their underlings to tell their underlings' underlings to hatch some convoluted plot which may or may not threaten the target's loved one's great aunt's beloved pet cat, hoping to draw out the target at some point during the yearly quarter. JUST OPEN A GATEWAY AND SHOOT HIM IN THE FACE, YOU DINGUS. You're all-powerful, he's got a hammer.

 

 

So yeah, you have to turn off your brain when you read this series. It's a genre thing. WoT is a fantasy-theme soap opera, and the characters only use valuable supernatural skills when the author feels it moves the story ahead. Not when they would have logically done so.

 

Excellent! I mostly agree with you, but would say that before opening a gateway, they would need to know where Mat or Perrin are.

[Wool-headed lummox]

Cause, you know, the Forsaken have no way of finding out where Mat or Perrin are. Their lowest minions can, but not the Forsaken themselves. Oh, and that thing about tracking taveren through the pattern? Doesn't exist. No sirree. Graendal could send Byar to kill Perrin, but she couldn't pop into existence 200 meters from him, throw a lightning bolt on him and anyone around him, top it off with a few mobile gateways, and pop back out. She'd rather seek refuge in parallel dimensions. Uhuh. Right.

 

Another thing I find exceedingly hard to believe, is how seldom the characters - good and evil - use the wondrous items of magic they have. Like an angreal. Say what you want about the dangers of ter'angreal, but angrel generally don't have these. Even the weakest angreal would enhance your channeling power, let's say, twofold. Addiitonally, it protects you from accidentally burning yourself out, because it has a built-in limit. One would thing, with these things around, everyone would be keen to channel through an angreal ALL THE TIME, as long as they have access to one. And yet... they are mostly locked away in dusty dungeons, lying forgotten until their plot-relevant two-second moment of glory comes. THAT'S NOT HOW REALITY WORKS.

 

The angreal that the White Tower possesses should be on hands ALL THE TIME. Aes Sedai should value each other's social standing based on who is currently allowed to carry an angreal, and which has the strongest, and for how long. There should be no moment in time, barring an exceptionally unlikely set of coincidence, when the Tower has at least one angreal in stock, because as soon as it parts with its temporary owner, it should go to the next eager Sister, with a dozen others standing in line behind her.

[Terez]

I think the Ring of Tamyrlin might be the stone ring ter'angreal. It's just too large to be a finger-ring...for relatively slender teenage girls. It has been proposed that it might work for a man, and Elayne's trouble with copying it probably has to do with needing a man to link with. And it would make sense for the Ring of Tamyrlin to be passed down secretly through Aes Sedai, who were continuous if disorganized throughout the Breaking.

[JakeBarnes]

I thought Elayne made perfect copies of it for the Mesaana fight.

[Terez]

She made perfect copies of the ter'angreal that require channeling; those were relatively easy for her. She never managed a perfect copy of the stone ring, partly because she couldn't get the colors right. The white/black cuendillar of the seals has led some to theorize that cuendillar made from saidin is black, since all of the cuendillar made by saidar we've seen is white.