Most infuriating moment/topic in the books

[muddasssir]

A most infuriating habit in the books as a whole is the lack of communication between couples who are romantically involved. That is why Mat's courtship with Tuon and their evening strolls and chats while riding make the relationship real. Berelain and Galad spent more time talking to each other than Rand and his three women combined. Rand hardly talks with his three women. He is all business with Aviendha except when he has her frozen body in his arms in the Far Snows. He almost never talks with Elayne except in the Stone of Tear, where most of her teaching was politics. And even with Min, his communication is more business and tasks than personal. Even Morgase and Tallanvor have better communication than most.

 

Perrin and Faile fluctuate from Perrin throwing himself under Faile's feet to Perrin shouting before he throws himself under Faile's feet.

 

Egwene and Gawyn ............... no comment!!!!!!

 

Nynaeve and Lan ....... That relationship started after "Mashiara." And the communication is almost minimal due to Lan's psychological state.

 

Siuan and Gareth are much better than most. But Siuan's resistance because "I don't have time to fall in love" wasted precious months in that relationship. After the bonding, their communication was very warm and nice to read.

Theo jan {by the way jan is loose translation for darling in Urdu} You are trying to judge a quasi tribal rural society by your own society and we all know for a fact that despite all of our prophesied openness and communication most of the fights are a result of a misunderstanding. For one I do not find it hard or impossible to understand. It is the natural order of things in that society.

[BFG]

Although I agree with the general sentiment that it was the best possible plan given the resources she had - the linking in particular was great, she should/could have had some inkling about the ter'angreal - they found a similar ter'angreal in the kins warehouse (Nyn picks one up and says it feels like pain) and I'm 75% sure that it was one of the one's listed amongst those that the BA stole - I'll check tDR later.

 

Not sure how they would make the jump from a rod that feels like pain to a "shock pistol". There is no possible way they could have expected the BA to have one, nor what it's properties would be.

 

You're right - the thought was based mostly on the list of ter'angreal the BA stole, but the one I was thinking of wasn't on there (I was mixing up some ter'angreal and the warnings various AS have given Elayne about messing with ter'angreal). The rod that feels like pain would then act as a reminder that the BA had some nasty ter'angreal, but never mind, since the first step is false the next doesn't follow either.

[Maleshub]

A most infuriating habit in the books as a whole is the lack of communication between couples who are romantically involved. That is why Mat's courtship with Tuon and their evening strolls and chats while riding make the relationship real. Berelain and Galad spent more time talking to each other than Rand and his three women combined. Rand hardly talks with his three women. He is all business with Aviendha except when he has her frozen body in his arms in the Far Snows. He almost never talks with Elayne except in the Stone of Tear, where most of her teaching was politics. And even with Min, his communication is more business and tasks than personal. Even Morgase and Tallanvor have better communication than most.

 

Perrin and Faile fluctuate from Perrin throwing himself under Faile's feet to Perrin shouting before he throws himself under Faile's feet.

 

Egwene and Gawyn ............... no comment!!!!!!

 

Nynaeve and Lan ....... That relationship started after "Mashiara." And the communication is almost minimal due to Lan's psychological state.

 

Siuan and Gareth are much better than most. But Siuan's resistance because "I don't have time to fall in love" wasted precious months in that relationship. After the bonding, their communication was very warm and nice to read.

Theo jan {by the way jan is loose translation for darling in Urdu} You are trying to judge a quasi tribal rural society by your own society and we all know for a fact that despite all of our prophesied openness and communication most of the fights are a result of a misunderstanding. For one I do not find it hard or impossible to understand. It is the natural order of things in that society.

 

muddasssir, I am complaining about lack of basic communication, especially among couples. And I don't think talking between couples is culturally oriented. It is universal. RJ even hits at it with Colavaere's string of women thrown at Rand and other hints of talking between couples who share a pillow.

[Ghost]

While there are many things that infuriate me, the ones' at the top are:

 

- AS double standards. "Of course we can bond men, but men bonding Sisters. Oh Light, that's an abomination!"

 

- Egwene's hypocrisy. God I hate her. "Hey all, I've been an AS for about 5 minutes, but I'm gonna argue with Lews freakin Therin because I know best"

 

- Faile is the most important thing. Nothing else matter. Nothing!

 

- Cadsuane's double standard regarding manners.

[Veracohr]

- AS double standards. "Of course we can bond men, but men bonding Sisters. Oh Light, that's an abomination!"

 

Not that AS don't have their flaws, but I can understand this one. 3000 years of justified revulsion over men who can channel won't go away in the blink of an eye. And a bond is quite a bit more than just accepting their existence without trying to gentle them.

 

- Egwene's hypocrisy. God I hate her. "Hey all, I've been an AS for about 5 minutes, but I'm gonna argue with Lews freakin Therin because I know best"

 

I don't think anyone really, truly gets that Rand is LTT. No one goes around thinking of him as LTT.

[Tyler Glembo]

- Cadsuane's double standard regarding manners.

 

I just read the scene the other day where Cads slaps Rand and tells him to have better manners.

[Maleshub]

- Cadsuane's double standard regarding manners.

 

I just read the scene the other day where Cads slaps Rand and tells him to have better manners.

 

That would be her second slap, in Far Madding. That wasn't one of her brightest moments! Rand needed to learn how to laugh and cry, and needed to get his temper under control. Her methods should have been "proportionate" to Rand's "transgressions." The face slap because he cursed was just over the top for me. On the other hand, her intervention when Rand and Logain were arguing; when Rand was impolite to the Aiel; and when he objected to the deal with Tairan rebels were great.

[BFG]

Egwene's hypocrisy. God I hate her. "Hey all, I've been an AS for about 5 minutes, but I'm gonna argue with Lews freakin Therin because I know best"

 

I don't think anyone really, truly gets that Rand is LTT. No one goes around thinking of him as LTT.

 

Except the Forsaken

[thom_merrilin]

The so-called Children of the Light. They claim they serve the light. Yet they torture and murder those who oppose their will. Their narrow views on the world is rather sadistic, even Galad is just as bad. They are possibly just as bad as the Seanchan.

 

Aes Sedai in their view they know better than anyone alive. They believe they should guide people to what the Tower wants. Is this not like Compulsion? Forcing people to something they don't want. The Aes Sedai are not the guiding light in the world. They are there to make people do what the Tower wants for the Towers needs, not the worlds.

[EmperorAllspice]

Mogheiden's fate. (as I know it having only just finished book 5)

 

Any time a woman claims that she owns a man

[Suttree]

Aes Sedai in their view they know better than anyone alive. They believe they should guide people to what the Tower wants. Is this not like Compulsion? Forcing people to something they don't want. The Aes Sedai are not the guiding light in the world. They are there to make people do what the Tower wants for the Towers needs, not the worlds.

 

All the old lets ignore the very real faults of this failed institution and instead skip straight to hyperbole in comparing their actions to one of the most evil weaves we have a name for eh? We of course know the reality of the situation in terms of their goals...

 

Moiraine sighed, a soft sound. "Do you expect me to be happy that the White Tower has split apart? I am Aes Sedai, Egwene. I gave my life to the Tower long before I ever suspected the Dragon would be Reborn in my lifetime. The Tower has been a bulwark against the Shadow for three thousand years. It has guided rulers to wise decisions, stopped wars before they began, halted wars that did begin. That humankind even remembers that the Dark One waits to escape, that the Last Battle will come, is because of the Tower. The Tower, whole and united. I could almost wish that every sister had sworn to Elaida, whatever happened to Siuan."

 

If they were only looking towards the best interests of the WT and not working for the greater good the world would be a vastly different place than it is now.

[EmperorAllspice]

They're still pretty insufferable though. They feel like they're incapable of being wrong

 

But that just goes for women as well in general. What was it Nynaeve said?

 

"Men stay out of women affairs, and women stay out of the affirs of men - as much as is necessary, at any rate." Heavily paraphrased. This whole mindset that every woman in the series has is infuriating on it's own.

[Morden]

To be honest one of the things I dislike most about the Aes Sedai as an institution is that it is one based on abuse and bullying, women in training are abused fairly heavily for the smallest things(Apparently this is to make sure they are worthy and to show dedication but the fact that they think that highly of themselves that anyone who deigns to want to be one of them should be beaten and treated like a slave is utter bullcrap considering how they act once they attain the shawl), once you pass the tests your essentially a lapdog for anyone more powerful than you once they take the oaths.

 

Its no wonder its falling apart and it will continue to do so until it is eventually annihilated by something worse or something better, though the only thing worse is the seanchan, though in my books most of the Aes Sedai who have been in seanchan hands for any length of time atleast learn a bit of humility.

 

The only reason the Aes Sedai have reigned is fear, all you have to do is listen to Loial whenever someone says something to an Aes Sedai which isnt the equivalent of crawling on broken glass. They just dont see to get that respect has to be earnt and that just because you wear a ring does not mean you are worthy of respect.

 

But then again I think they were written to be disliked as a whole so that the few who are half decent human beings shine more.

[EmperorAllspice]

"Fear might be easier to establish, but love has a lot more staying power"

 

I wish Rand AND the Aes Sedai would learn this. XD

[Suttree]

Its no wonder its falling apart and it will continue to do so until it is eventually annihilated by something worse or something better, though the only thing worse is the seanchan, though in my books most of the Aes Sedai who have been in seanchan hands for any length of time atleast learn a bit of humility.

 

Well that was really the point of it all. They have taken their lumps and hit rock bottom. The new Amyrlin has called them fools for their old ways and is working towards wholesale change. Now they are poised for a measure of redemption in working with the Ashaman which at TG which will spring board the groups joining together moving forward. The foundations of Elaidas palace are just sitting there next to the WT waiting Logain and co. to move in.

 

As an aside the Seanchan part of your post is troubling to say the least. Close to being as ridiculous as claiming there are only a few decent AS. Although its nice to know you think Egwene is the model of humility now. ;)

[Whizbang]

"Fear might be easier to establish, but love has a lot more staying power"

 

I wish Rand AND the Aes Sedai would learn this. XD

 

Stay tuned...

 

[/suspenseful and mysterious music]

[EmperorAllspice]

Mat's continual desire to get away. It's infuriating cuz the others have pretty much accepted their lot in life and compared to them Mat feels like a selfish whiner. It also stops him from having sweet moments with Rand and the others.

 

I was heartbroken when he didn't want to partake in Rand's group hug at the end of FOH

 

Mat... Y U NO GROUP HUG?! T.T

 

While I'm at it. Group hugs. The lack of hugs in this series is infuriating.

[Whizbang]

I am re-reading tFoH right now... I don't remember a group hug. I'll have to pay extra attention now.

 

Re: Mat

 

Stay tuned...

 

[/suspenseful and mysterious music]

[EmperorAllspice]

It's more an attempted group hug. It's after he defeats Rahvin and finds out that Aviendha and Mat are still alive. Rand runs forward and tries to hug both of them at the same time but Mat shoves him away.

[Ghost]

- AS double standards. "Of course we can bond men, but men bonding Sisters. Oh Light, that's an abomination!"

 

Not that AS don't have their flaws, but I can understand this one. 3000 years of justified revulsion over men who can channel won't go away in the blink of an eye. And a bond is quite a bit more than just accepting their existence without trying to gentle them.

 

- Egwene's hypocrisy. God I hate her. "Hey all, I've been an AS for about 5 minutes, but I'm gonna argue with Lews freakin Therin because I know best"

 

I don't think anyone really, truly gets that Rand is LTT. No one goes around thinking of him as LTT.

 

True, there is a justified bias against men, but they are informed that Saidin is cleansed, a fact that one of their own seems to accept. This is in KoD. Then in ToM, Egwene again tells Rand that they need to discuss "his men bonding Sisters".

 

Moiraine and Siuane let Rand go because they realized that he had to "break all bonds" etc. Egwene seems to think she knows more than Rand even when she's only an Accepted pretending to be an AS. I know it would be hard for her to see him as a ruler, given their history, but why then does she expect him and others from her past to accept her glory as the Amyrlin seat? Again, in ToM, after sensing that there is more to Rand than she previously thought, she commands him not to turn his back on the Amyrlin seat. There's even a remark by her about how cultured Rand seems and whether or not his tutors could have educated him so quickly. I actually laughed at that one. He's had more training, and spent more time as a ruler than she has, and yet she thinks of him as a backwards villager.

 

To be honest one of the things I dislike most about the Aes Sedai as an institution is that it is one based on abuse and bullying, women in training are abused fairly heavily for the smallest things(Apparently this is to make sure they are worthy and to show dedication but the fact that they think that highly of themselves that anyone who deigns to want to be one of them should be beaten and treated like a slave is utter bullcrap considering how they act once they attain the shawl), once you pass the tests your essentially a lapdog for anyone more powerful than you once they take the oaths.

 

Its no wonder its falling apart and it will continue to do so until it is eventually annihilated by something worse or something better, though the only thing worse is the seanchan, though in my books most of the Aes Sedai who have been in seanchan hands for any length of time atleast learn a bit of humility.

 

The only reason the Aes Sedai have reigned is fear, all you have to do is listen to Loial whenever someone says something to an Aes Sedai which isnt the equivalent of crawling on broken glass. They just dont see to get that respect has to be earnt and that just because you wear a ring does not mean you are worthy of respect.

 

But then again I think they were written to be disliked as a whole so that the few who are half decent human beings shine more.

 

True. AS demanding respect is basically like a tall, muscled man demanding that others bow to him because if they don't, he'll beat them up. The AS equivalent is humiliating others by tying them up with Air. The sheer arrogance of it is astounding. I was born with some physical gifts, therefore, I am the shiz. If that's the case, Rand should go around casually shielding Sisters whenever they get uppity.

[Morden]

 

 

As an aside the Seanchan part of your post is troubling to say the least. Close to being as ridiculous as claiming there are only a few decent AS. Although its nice to know you think Egwene is the model of humility now. ;)

 

Decent Aes Sedai to me is rather difficult as RJ portrayed almost all the women in WoT to be headstrong know it alls who seem to think they have the right to shout down, hit or use the power on any man who disagrees with them. The men are just as bad to an extent but you dont see the men in it threatening to hit the women for being annoying cretins, granted I think Rand and his Asha'man should start stilling a few Aes Sedai as a taster to make them back off and stop being so smug and haughty.

 

Egwene has almost no personality to me, she just moulds herself to wherever she is, to me that isnt adapting its just mimicry, one of my sisters is the same, she changes her accent to sound like wherever she is staying at the time and ive always found it pathetic that she doesnt have the self respect to stand out. Humility? yeah Egwene will take a beating for a cause and she does try more than most to make things work, but she still seems to think that the only peoples opinions who matter are Aes Sedai because she is there, just like when she was with the Wise Ones she thought their opinions held more weight...

 

Regarding Elaida's Palace though, that is an intriguing idea. And as for how I view the Aes Sedai, whenever we see them they all act the same. This is why not only the Wise Ones but also the Windfinders act like such bullies to them, because the Aes Sedai act so high and mighty but on the whole they do not deserve it. To be respected you must show respect, and in all honesty there are hardly any Aes Sedai characters who show any semblance of respect to anyone without being humbled first. Pride cometh before the fall... Elaida has had her fall, but I surely hope that the Aes Sedai have not because Egwene is not enough to sort them out, not unless she lives long enough that almost all AS Characters we have seen are dead and burried, and thats assuming she doesnt get so deep into her "perfect example of an aes sedai." that she starts acting like them.

 

I like and respect many of them as individuals but on the whole? god no, and the more I think about it the more I can see how the Children of the Light started and why almost everyone fears or hates them.

[Suttree]

This is why not only the Wise Ones but also the Windfinders act like such bullies to them, because the Aes Sedai act so high and mighty but on the whole they do not deserve it. To be respected you must show respect, and in all honesty there are hardly any Aes Sedai characters who show any semblance of respect to anyone without being humbled first. Pride cometh before the fall... but on the whole? god no, and the more I think about it the more I can see how the Children of the Light started and why almost everyone fears or hates them.

 

Wouldn't you say the WOs and WFs act like bullies to their own cultures as well? They certainly serve that function in society from what we have seen. About the AS though I think this why the "channeler exchange" program was such an important step made by Eggy. Imagine the good it will do for accepted to learn lessons from those other cultures and get some understanding for their true place in the world(one that Eggy has already called out with her "The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," quote). As Cads said those are lessons that...

 

...not everyone could learn in the Tower. She herself, full of pride in her new shawl and her own strength, had been taught by a near toothless wilder at a farm in the heart of the Black Hills.

 

Winter’s Heart, The Humming Bird’s Secret

 

I don't think we are in danger of Eggy going that route you put forth above since she has already called them fools and vowed they must change. As for the Children they started as a as "a priesthood dedicated to proselytizing against Darkfriends.". It had not much to do with AS.

[BFG]

This is why not only the Wise Ones but also the Windfinders act like such bullies to them, because the Aes Sedai act so high and mighty but on the whole they do not deserve it. To be respected you must show respect, and in all honesty there are hardly any Aes Sedai characters who show any semblance of respect to anyone without being humbled first. Pride cometh before the fall... but on the whole? god no, and the more I think about it the more I can see how the Children of the Light started and why almost everyone fears or hates them.

 

Wouldn't you say the WOs and WFs act like bullies to their own cultures as well? They certainly serve that function in society from what we have seen. About the AS though I think this why the "channeler exchange" program was such an important step made by Eggy. Imagine the good it will do for accepted to learn lessons from those other cultures and get some understanding for their true place in the world(one that Eggy has already called out with her "The world as it was cannot be ours any longer," quote). As Cads said those are lessons that...

 

...not everyone could learn in the Tower. She herself, full of pride in her new shawl and her own strength, had been taught by a near toothless wilder at a farm in the heart of the Black Hills.

 

Winter’s Heart, The Humming Bird’s Secret

 

I don't think we are in danger of Eggy going that route you put forth above since she has already called them fools and vowed they must change. As for the Children they started as a as "a priesthood dedicated to proselytizing against Darkfriends.". It had not much to do with AS.

 

To an extent the WO do act as bullies - but the clan Chiefs do act as some counter measure. Additionally you don't have to be a channeler to be a WO, and strength in the Power amongst them isn't valued (above other things - they do make a fuss over Avi because of her strength, but that wouldn't affect her ranking). So they value character, knowledge and experience above strength in the Power which makes them very different to the AS who appear to value strength above all else. Please note that this is in relation to how they were - I agree that as much as I don't like Eg as a person, as a Leader she's herding the AS in the right direction.

 

The Sea Folk are headed by the Mistress of the Ships who is aided by the WF and the Master of the Blades - this is again very different to the AS.

[Maleshub]

Thom's reference to the Children of the Light is a definite +1. They seem to be an integral part of RJ's plot. And they are a frustrating lot. And at their feet lie the crimes of dragonsworn from Tarabon, Almoth Plain, Tarabon, Altara, Murandy, and Illian. Pedron Niall's mad plan to scare nations into following him (rabid lion tactic) led to the suffering and death of thousands, if not tens of thousands. For that, Niall deserved to die.

[Morden]

Tbh the Children of the Light reek of the same corruption that destroyed Aridhol, its not the same because we dont understand exactly what Mordeth used and how he managed to corrupt it, but the semblance is the same. Both seem to think that anything which harms the dark one is good, no matter how repellent it is. That sort of thinking always leads to corruption due to the nature of zealotry... anyone who doesnt agree with you wholeheartedly is obviously not on the side of the light and doesnt deserve to live.

 

The WoT is full of competing indoctrinations and almost all of them are awful in there own ways, be it the Seanchan view on channelers not being people but dangerous animals, the Aiel view that they are the only ones who act with honor and that all wetlanders are weak, the Aes Sedai's arrogance, pride and deception and so on and so on.