[Regimental Book Discussion] EotW Mat vs TGH Mat

[Jeannaisais]

For the remainder of September and into October we will be discussing the differences and the growth of Mat throughout the first two books of the series.

 

As such, all material in books one and two are fair game but I should not see ANY other content from ANY other book besides the first two.

 

The rules for the discussion are as follows:

 

Regimental Book Discussion

 

As it is the books that brought us here, it shall be the books that keep us here! Thus, we will be participating in monthly regimental book discussions! Each month, one of the regiments will host a discussion based on the books and the Band of the Red Hand. However, every fourth month, a member of the Senior Staff will begin a discussion on the main Band boards which will encompass either a new topic, or a review of the three topics discussed by each regiment. These discussions can concentrate solely on Mat or other characters that we meet through the Band of the Red Hand, or other battle like circumstances that have effected the Band, but they must have a connection to the Band of the Red Hand in order to be considered a valid Regimental Book Discussion.

 

Rules:

-Label the discussion with the following format: [Regimental Book Discussion] Your Title/Subject Here

-Be sure to mark which books the discussion will scan - if your comment lays outside the boundaries of the books listed, please hide the content as a spoiler.

-In order to gain points in these discussions, you must post at least three thoughtful posts during the month (considered to be the 1st - 25th of each month). You can earn a maximum of 25 points per month by participating in these discussions.

-Each post can receive up to five points, depending on complexity, thoughtfulness and accuracy, for a maximum of 25 points.

-Points will be awarded by the C-G hosting the regiment with the aid of the MG/UC.

-The discussion must involve the Band of the Red Hand in the Books or be connected to the Band of the Red Hand.

-If you would like to host a Regimental Book Discussion in place of the CG of your regiment, you will be awarded 5 additional points. (CG's will receive these points as part of their staff pay)

 

Topics to Choose From:

How to be more like Mat?

Why did Mat create the Band?

How to entertain yourself when an army on the road?

Book by book discussion of Mat's character and growth and how others affected him etc.

Mat and women

Mat and loyalty

Tuon

Mat and AS

Topics Already Discussed:

 

 

Now...DISCUSS!!!

[F Horn of Valere]

I'm not a big fan of early Mat. Young Mat is fun (a la Merry and Pippin) with his pranks like loosing a badger in someone's house, but after leaving the Two Rivers, he kind of annoys me (although in the greater context of content Jea says we can't include in this discussion, I think that is actually a good thing because it makes for some great character development). My biggest point of contention is how he ropes Perrin into their treatment of Rand. Sure, Rand deserved it for acting like a Jerk, but they were total Jerks back after they left Sheinar.

[Jeannaisais]

I connected really well with young mat....probably because they were the same age as i was when I started reading the books....kinda....okay, mentally the same age I guess?

[Basel Gill]

I think Mat's personality for a good deal of these first two books, especially the first one, has to take the ruby dagger into account. It was turning him into a very unsavory person. In TGH he wasn't as badly affected, but he still hadn't been healed yet. But the fact that he took the dagger in the first place, ignoring Moiraine's warnings not to take anything from Shadar Logoth, illustrates well the lack of maturity he had back in the early days.

[Christine]

I am so glad that someone else recognizes Mat as a Merry/Pippin look alike. BEFORE the Ruby Dagger (as basel pointed out a huge difference), I really think that Mat is the comic relief. He is so relaxed about things. After that. he starts to get all snarky, even into TGH. I was rather annoyed with him, which bothered me, as he and Perrin were my favorites at the start of Book 1. I never liked the others in the group, but Perrin being so awkward, and Mat being so light hearted (with Thom's influence added), I was really sad when Mat got all snarky. Granted, the dagger was involved, but I think it took him a long time before he became fun loving again. He was one of the first in the original group to really grow up, I think. Yes, Perrin killed and Rand had faced trollocs, but Mat was DYING from the dagger.

[F Horn of Valere]

Forgot about the dagger while analyzing early Mat. That is a fair assessment; even though it didn't impact his personality much early on, and after Moiraine stemmed that tide until he could be healed, it still did cause some issues.

[Christine]

He was rather rude to Rand, every time someone called him a Lord. Mat was still playing dice with the others (before they noticed his luck), while Rand was this mighty Lord. Mat got snarky.

[The Bard Babe]

I really enjoyed early Mat and late Mat, and the ruby dagger had the opposite effect on me, because I knew that that was what was affecting him, I just felt really sorry for him and loved the character more. I love that RJ did that, because as Christine said, Mat started off as the Merry/Pippin comic relief type role, and he still is to some extent, but having the early influence gives the whole character much more of a rounded and realistic, multi-dimensional feel.

 

I personally prefer Mat before the ruby dagger, when he's just the comic relief, or the prankster, when he's just funny and innocent, and I love going back to that bit after reading some of his darker scenes, but I love the post-TGH Mat that shows such depth of character stemming from what started as a comic relief. His continued reluctance to be called a lord and the way his humour is maintained throughout the series is one of the reasons he's my favourite, or one of.

 

I think that preference is likely because I too relate to early Mat, that's the role I play in my group of friends. Post TGH I love the whole new organisation and sense of leadership he develops.

[Basel Gill]

He was rather rude to Rand, every time someone called him a Lord. Mat was still playing dice with the others (before they noticed his luck), while Rand was this mighty Lord. Mat got snarky.

 

I always thought that his attitude toward Rand in these parts reflected badly on him. Rand's old clothes are all taken away from him, and he had these spiffy, new, lordly clothes forced onto him by Moiraine. Moiraine pretty much does everything to set Rand up as a lord short of having some ruler actually grant him a title. Rand wants no part of being a lord at this point in the series, and all Mat can do is scorn him for putting on lordly airs as if this is a path that Rand has chosen.

[Christine]

EXACTLY! He went from being fun loving, to being tormented, to just being an all out ass.

[Katiora]

Yeah... I have to agree with everyone's assessment right now.. but really I think all of that was done on purpose by Moraine. Remember, after the EotW whenever she found out that Rand was the Dragon she lost all interest in Mat and Perrin. I think it might have been her plan to drive them away by making it out that Rand thought he was a Lord and didn't want them around any more. Without Mat and Perrin to hold to, Rand would be left alone with no one he knew, except Moraine. I think she hoped by driving off Rand's friends she could gain more control over Rand. I think Mat simply fell for her ploy and then when Rand acted the arse the way he did, trying to drive them away for their own good (as he thought), it only reinforced Mat's belief. You have to remember that Aes Sedai are great manipulators, and she was Carhienen so that makes her even worse lol

[F Horn of Valere]

ewww now there is something about Moiraine that isn't as saint-like :(

[Jeannaisais]

That could be SO very true though!

[The Bard Babe]

Oh wow, I'd never thought of it like that!

 

But it works so well...

But I like Moiraine too much!

[Andrew the Asha'Man]

I didn't like mat on my first read because he was a bit of a pompous @$$ but on my second re-read (currently on 3rd) Mat is really popping out to me. He was trying to keep who he was but the dagger really made him grow up which is sad but also necessary. Yea he gave Rand bad looks but Rand wasn't the same thing he was when he left Edmonds Field. But Rand was Destined for something where as Mat didn't have anything ahead of him. But mat has been my favorite for a long time

[dicetosser1]

what i liked was that mat had a sense of fun. thats largely why he is my fav. The dagger twist was interesting yet even tho he turned funny at times he was still the same mat like when rand got channeling sickness and he was looking after him.

 

I think that maybe Mat was a very important character for the early books he provides fun and goes thru a metamorphosis early on yet comes out of it much the same as he was before it

[The Bard Babe]

I agree with you there Dice I think that Mat was crucial in the early books especially to keep it all from getting a bit too heavy. Providing an average bloke's simple POV as well as all the political manoeuvrings and heavy topics and changes going on makes the book a heap better. It also gives the whole thing a sense of realism and a bit of extra despair when that character is darkened, if that makes sense.

[Katiora]

Oh wow, I'd never thought of it like that!

 

But it works so well...

But I like Moiraine too much!

 

it shouldn't make you like Moiraine any less... she wasn't being evil, she was simply trying to do what she thought was right (like any Aes Sedai) Deception and intrigue are second nature to her. To me, what's important is that Mat and Perrin were important enough that the pattern forced them into following Rand, even though both of them thought he was being a snobbish, prude arse.

 

And also, something that's being left out of this conversation completely, which happened in book 2... What do you think the importance of Mat blowing the HoV will be when the Last Battle comes? I need to go back and re-read that scene....

[BFG]

Although I agree with the sentiment that he acts like an ass for much of tGH, in my eyes he redeams himself at the end. When Rand tells the others to leave (after Ingtars sacrifice) Mats the one who asks about Rand, additionally when Rand says he needs to go back for Eg, Mats the first to agree even though he really needs to leave.

"Saving Egwene isn't a waste of time!"

 

There's a bit about the Horn scene that I find interesting - when Hawkwing is summoned he says

 

...he looked around, frowning. "something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turns his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. "You are here. Have you the banner?"...

I've wondered although anyone could have blown it, it sounds like the HotH follow the banner and the Dragon, not the Hornblower. What does everyone think?

[Basel Gill]

Although I agree with the sentiment that he acts like an ass for much of tGH, in my eyes he redeams himself at the end. When Rand tells the others to leave (after Ingtars sacrifice) Mats the one who asks about Rand, additionally when Rand says he needs to go back for Eg, Mats the first to agree even though he really needs to leave.

 

I think that he really starts to redeem himself when Rand and the others are planning their trip to Barthanes's mansion to access the Waygate there, and Rand takes charge. Mat starts thinking about how Rand is growing into the lord's coat and stuff, and all of a sudden he gets easier to like as he develops a greater respect for Rand.

[Auld Manriva]

Mat's underlying inner strength, loyalty, responsibility and competence have been with him since the start. He just (subconsciously, I think) hid it behind his Rebel Without A Pause prankster "persona". Mat's family, his father in particular I think, was very upstanding and to him staid or boring and Mat, like the cliche "Preachers Son" wanted to be completely the opposite and that helped along his "issues" with authority.

 

That "problem with authority" and unchecked curiosity is what got him big trouble in Shadar Logoth. But I think the inner strength etc. is what helped him survive the dagger. I've never really considered Mat's character as a "Rogue", he's always been one of those "larger than life" personalities to me but who see's himself as just plain Mat. I think his character pretty much was consistent with that through both these books, even as he fought both the Dagger and The Pattern.

 

I've never really dissected the thing with The Horn. I'm not even certain that, for the side of The Light, HE needs to be the one to blow it next time. I suspect that whomever does for their side that tHotH will, once the Horn summons them from TaR, follow The Dragon and the Banner. It might even be Egwene who toots it. Jason's "Letter To RJ" infers that Herself and Rand are pretty Badassery in AMoL.

[Katiora]

Well according to the Aes Sedai he HAS to be the one that blows it or he has to be dead... otherwise the horn is just a horn...

[F Horn of Valere]

The same Aes Sedai that don't even remember what a real Aes Sedai is suppose to do (serve all), and have lost half of their talents. The legend says the same person has to, and I don't think RJ would have put that in if it were not true (at least without a few more reminders), but I don't have a high level of trust in the collective Aes Sedai memory.

[Katiora]

True... but like I said... if what they said is right, and I do believe it is, regardless of who said it, Mat has to be the one to blow it or he has to be dead...

[Auld Manriva]

No argument here. Like I said, I've never bothered to dissect the Horn thing. I suppose it makes sense that that would be the case. It does seem odd to me that they never "interacted" with Mat; just with Rand, The Dragon, who Artur "Hawknose" copped to right off. Mat seemed to matter to them as much as the dude who blows Reveille of a morn.