Will Demandred betray Moridin?

[Fred Cauthon]

At Corwin, thanks. Personally, I don't know that Demandred will betray MoridIsh. There's a reason these people have become Chosen/Forsaken. Verin says that through her investigation of the Black Ajah she has decided that it is selfishness that the DO values because it makes them predictable. I think Demandred's hatred of LTT will not allow for him to, "come to the light" as it were. Any opportunity where he can do Rand harm will most likely be used to his advantage. It's a long shot that I don't see happening unless Rand and Demandred confront each other and Rand apologizes which I doubt will happen.

 

Fred

[thisguy]

At Corwin, thanks. Personally, I don't know that Demandred will betray MoridIsh. There's a reason these people have become Chosen/Forsaken. Verin says that through her investigation of the Black Ajah she has decided that it is selfishness that the DO values because it makes them predictable. I think Demandred's hatred of LTT will not allow for him to, "come to the light" as it were. Any opportunity where he can do Rand harm will most likely be used to his advantage. It's a long shot that I don't see happening unless Rand and Demandred confront each other and Rand apologizes which I doubt will happen.

 

Fred

 

There are some insightful people here who have gathered some good material. I know there's good stuff on this sort of thing at the 13th Depository as others have posted links.

 

While there are more myths/religious parallels than these, it seems the biggest are from the Bible, Arthurian Legend and Norse mythology. Hope that helps a bit, man. ;)

[shortkut]

i see demandred either turning or simply going rogue/on his own of he is second fiddle to taim

 

Why would Demandred be second fiddle to Taim?

 

 

Only reasoning for Demandred being second to Taim is Moridin's comments in AMoL prologue about how Taim has done the best work so far with how he manipulated Rand

essentially this and i think i read somewhere that taim is as strong as demandred so he wouldn't even have a strength advantage over taim

[Suttree]

i see demandred either turning or simply going rogue/on his own of he is second fiddle to taim

 

Why would Demandred be second fiddle to Taim?

 

 

Only reasoning for Demandred being second to Taim is Moridin's comments in AMoL prologue about how Taim has done the best work so far with how he manipulated Rand

essentially this and i think i read somewhere that taim is as strong as demandred so he wouldn't even have a strength advantage over taim

 

Again this does nothing to answer the fact that Demy has been ordering Taim in he past and was possibly behind the BT to begin with. We also know Demy is up to something massive. No there is very little chance Taim vaults past him...

[shortkut]

i never said it would happen, but taim seems to be moridin's favorite now. pkaying second fiddle turned him to the dark, i think that is what it would take to turn him from the dark

[Maleshub]

What would happen if Rand cuts Demandred's link to the DO like Asmodean. With the Saidin cleansed, Demandred can be redeemed (theoretically). And Rand's regret at competing against Demandred instead of congratulating him was a wonderful eye-opener (and of course might be a big red herring). But the option, regardless of how small the chance, is on the table.

[athrian]

Didn't Verin say in TGS that those who swear to the Shadow are bound to "very specific oaths" and that one of them is that you can't betray the DO (until the hour of your death)? Or did she mean that's only for Black Ajah?

[thisguy]

Didn't Verin say in TGS that those who swear to the Shadow are bound to "very specific oaths" and that one of them is that you can't betray the DO (until the hour of your death)? Or did she mean that's only for Black Ajah?

that must be BA because Asmodean did just that...

[Sharaman]

Look at it another way.

Demandred's "bushels" remark suggests Dem believes Moridin doesn't have a clue what Dem's been upto.

What could that be? How could he be so confident that the Naiblis doesn't know whatever it is?

 

This eliminates large chunks of Westland because the Naiblis had other agents across the kingdoms of the Westlands.

It also seems to eliminate a plot involving known Darkfriends networks because the Naiblis can always tap into their network.

It eliminates both BT and WT for the same reasons - the Naiblis would know.

 

Would control of Murandy qualify as "bushels"? It's a smaller, more obscure kingdom than other Westlands and how could he deliver on an impressive scale even if he subverted the entire kingdom?

 

Does it eliminate the Seanchan (either Fortuona's lot or the ones in Seanchan)? Shara? The Ogier ?

The Sharans seem to be out - due to RJ's statement that they wouldn't play a large role - and also Graendal had her hooks in there and would likely have twigged if Dem was playing a game there.

Among Seanchans - the only possible Dem alter-ego character - the unnamed usurper in Seanchan proper - is out because of the fact that we couldn't have worked it out before she/he's mentioned in ToM. The others like Galgan have appeared onscreen thus eliminating them.

 

The ( theoretical Darkfriend) ogier would also be a relatively small and non-channeler force though their knowledge of the Ways and their steadfast courage and fighting skills make them formidable.

 

So if Dem's pulled off something in Murandy, he's done something spectacularly different and successfully (he believes) concealed it.

What??

[MarkDiLillo]

Didn't Verin say in TGS that those who swear to the Shadow are bound to "very specific oaths" and that one of them is that you can't betray the DO (until the hour of your death)? Or did she mean that's only for Black Ajah?

 

This was specifically for the BA. It is implied that they undergo this using the Oath Rod while the remove their current Aes Sedai oaths so they can lie again. Forsaken are bound in a much more serious manner with a direct link to the Dark One.

[decrepid dragon]

It would be kind of crazy if Demandred betrayed not only Moridin but all of the shadow as well. Not because he regrets his actions, but he has already shown that he can beat Lews Therin in a war and he wants to defeat the forces of shadow in warfare where Lews Therin failed, ultimately proving his superiority. I know that won't happen, but it would be a ridiculous kind of twist.

 

It would also make Demandred kind of phsycotic. Which would make him more like Moridin. Hmm, maybe not then.

[dhammett11]

It would be kind of crazy if Demandred betrayed not only Moridin but all of the shadow as well. Not because he regrets his actions, but he has already shown that he can beat Lews Therin in a war and he wants to defeat the forces of shadow in warfare where Lews Therin failed, ultimately proving his superiority. I know that won't happen, but it would be a ridiculous kind of twist.

 

It would also make Demandred kind of phsycotic. Which would make him more like Moridin. Hmm, maybe not then.

 

I think your on to something actually. This got me wondering what Demandred's reaction would be if he discovered Moridin's bale-link to Rand. Every PoV we've had from Demandred has demonstrated his talent for noticing subtle oddities of a significant nature, e.g., Graendal's gold ring angreal. Moridin has been keeping the link a secret from the other Forsaken this whole problem, and it's safe to assume the others would take action against him in a heartbeat. It's the perfect excuse for offing the Nae'blis that they're all waiting for. Combine Demandred's knack for noticing things with Graendal's past observations that "Moridin has been increasingly resembling al'Thor in certain ways", that would be confirmation enough for Demandred. Just imagine: What if he thought assassinating Moridin was not just a way to kill Rand but also the easiest way to kill Rand?

[Fred Cauthon]

It would be kind of crazy if Demandred betrayed not only Moridin but all of the shadow as well. Not because he regrets his actions, but he has already shown that he can beat Lews Therin in a war and he wants to defeat the forces of shadow in warfare where Lews Therin failed, ultimately proving his superiority. I know that won't happen, but it would be a ridiculous kind of twist.

 

It would also make Demandred kind of phsycotic. Which would make him more like Moridin. Hmm, maybe not then.

 

I think your on to something actually. This got me wondering what Demandred's reaction would be if he discovered Moridin's bale-link to Rand. Every PoV we've had from Demandred has demonstrated his talent for noticing subtle oddities of a significant nature, e.g., Graendal's gold ring angreal. Moridin has been keeping the link a secret from the other Forsaken this whole problem, and it's safe to assume the others would take action against him in a heartbeat. It's the perfect excuse for offing the Nae'blis that they're all waiting for. Combine Demandred's knack for noticing things with Graendal's past observations that "Moridin has been increasingly resembling al'Thor in certain ways", that would be confirmation enough for Demandred. Just imagine: What if he thought assassinating Moridin was not just a way to kill Rand but also the easiest way to kill Rand?

No Demy wouldn't do that. Assassinating Mordin is not the same as killing Rand/LTT. Demy doesn't hate Moridin the way he hates Rand/LTT. Just don't see it happening.

 

Fred

[makaveli422]

Fred, why wouldn't he? He has to know of the prophecies by now and with his keen mind deduce that Rand would probably be resurrected at some point. Even if Rand didn't come back he would have killed two birds in one fell swoop, and become Nae'blis at the same time. Which is what he has always wanted. LTT dead and the top dog of the Shadow. He has only recently been adamant about being the one to kill Rand and we are not sure why that is. Maybe he figures that if Rand does come back then with Moridin out of the way he will get to kill him all over again.

 

I wasn't a fan of this theory at first but the more I think about it the more I like it. I can't wait till January!

[dhammett11]

It would be kind of crazy if Demandred betrayed not only Moridin but all of the shadow as well. Not because he regrets his actions, but he has already shown that he can beat Lews Therin in a war and he wants to defeat the forces of shadow in warfare where Lews Therin failed, ultimately proving his superiority. I know that won't happen, but it would be a ridiculous kind of twist.

 

It would also make Demandred kind of phsycotic. Which would make him more like Moridin. Hmm, maybe not then.

 

I think your on to something actually. This got me wondering what Demandred's reaction would be if he discovered Moridin's bale-link to Rand. Every PoV we've had from Demandred has demonstrated his talent for noticing subtle oddities of a significant nature, e.g., Graendal's gold ring angreal. Moridin has been keeping the link a secret from the other Forsaken this whole problem, and it's safe to assume the others would take action against him in a heartbeat. It's the perfect excuse for offing the Nae'blis that they're all waiting for. Combine Demandred's knack for noticing things with Graendal's past observations that "Moridin has been increasingly resembling al'Thor in certain ways", that would be confirmation enough for Demandred. Just imagine: What if he thought assassinating Moridin was not just a way to kill Rand but also the easiest way to kill Rand?

No Demy wouldn't do that. Assassinating Mordin is not the same as killing Rand/LTT. Demy doesn't hate Moridin the way he hates Rand/LTT. Just don't see it happening.

 

Fred

 

I agree Demandred doesn't hate Moridin. But when murder is motivated by hate, it's a crime of passion and is distinguished from murdering in cold blood. I also agree that the scenario I described can only be backed up by evidence that's circumstantial at best. Another possible twist I was entertaining but considered less likely goes like this:

 

Scenario #2) Demandred accidentally betrays the shadow by killing Rand, resulting in Moridin's untimely demise and inadvertently subverting the Shadow's plans.

 

If Demandred does turn out to be involved with either Rand's death or foiling the Dark One, my money's on it playing out in one of those two ways. I see no third alternative. It's still just another big IF, but who here ever gets tired of playing wot-if? =D

[decrepid dragon]

It would be kind of crazy if Demandred betrayed not only Moridin but all of the shadow as well. Not because he regrets his actions, but he has already shown that he can beat Lews Therin in a war and he wants to defeat the forces of shadow in warfare where Lews Therin failed, ultimately proving his superiority. I know that won't happen, but it would be a ridiculous kind of twist.

 

It would also make Demandred kind of phsycotic. Which would make him more like Moridin. Hmm, maybe not then.

 

I think your on to something actually. This got me wondering what Demandred's reaction would be if he discovered Moridin's bale-link to Rand. Every PoV we've had from Demandred has demonstrated his talent for noticing subtle oddities of a significant nature, e.g., Graendal's gold ring angreal. Moridin has been keeping the link a secret from the other Forsaken this whole problem, and it's safe to assume the others would take action against him in a heartbeat. It's the perfect excuse for offing the Nae'blis that they're all waiting for. Combine Demandred's knack for noticing things with Graendal's past observations that "Moridin has been increasingly resembling al'Thor in certain ways", that would be confirmation enough for Demandred. Just imagine: What if he thought assassinating Moridin was not just a way to kill Rand but also the easiest way to kill Rand?

No Demy wouldn't do that. Assassinating Mordin is not the same as killing Rand/LTT. Demy doesn't hate Moridin the way he hates Rand/LTT. Just don't see it happening.

 

Fred

 

I agree Demandred doesn't hate Moridin. But when murder is motivated by hate, it's a crime of passion and is distinguished from murdering in cold blood. I also agree that the scenario I described can only be backed up by evidence that's circumstantial at best. Another possible twist I was entertaining but considered less likely goes like this:

 

Scenario #2) Demandred accidentally betrays the shadow by killing Rand, resulting in Moridin's untimely demise and inadvertently subverting the Shadow's plans.

 

If Demandred does turn out to be involved with either Rand's death or foiling the Dark One, my money's on it playing out in one of those two ways. I see no third alternative. It's still just another big IF, but who here ever gets tired of playing wot-if? =D

Certainly not me It will be so sad when we know everything and I only come onto forums like this to find the inevitibly huge amount of subtle and minor plot resolutions I missed in the book

 

just because I have never used it before.

[TootThatHorn]

I think there is suspicion about the Rand/Moridin link though, some of the Forsaken are noticing some strange behavior. Also I think that it was Cyndane that commanded Slayer in the town, and it could be that she is aware of the link and is hoping that in killing Rand, Moridin will die as well. That's obviously speculation but as I've said before, Lanfear to me is the most self serving one of them all, and she may have found this to be a way to be free of Moridin without directly facing him. Who knows, it could have been a finn thing that lead her to this.

[Southpaw89]

I think there is suspicion about the Rand/Moridin link though, some of the Forsaken are noticing some strange behavior. Also I think that it was Cyndane that commanded Slayer in the town, and it could be that she is aware of the link and is hoping that in killing Rand, Moridin will die as well. That's obviously speculation but as I've said before, Lanfear to me is the most self serving one of them all, and she may have found this to be a way to be free of Moridin without directly facing him. Who knows, it could have been a finn thing that lead her to this.

 

I agree that it does seem interesting how the Forsaken are noticing a shift in Moridins behavior. Like how he has changed since first mind trapping Cyndane and Moghedian. I am really looking forward to seeing what else the link has in store.

[herid]

Moggy and the rest of them would be blind not to notice things like the sun shining in Moridin's dreamshard and the changes in his behavior but they certainly don't know about the link. This is not something Moridin would share with any of them and it's really too weird a thing anyway.

It's not anything they've ever heard of before and Moridin himself doesn't really understand it. I'm not even sure the DO knows.

Cyndane is the only one who might suspect something because Moridin was able to sneak her into Rand's dream and she knows how hard that is to do.

[makaveli422]

This is not something Moridin would share with any of them and it's really too weird a thing anyway.

It's not anything they've ever heard of before and Moridin himself doesn't really understand it. I'm not even sure the DO knows.

 

I'm sure he wouldn't like to explain it either.

 

Moridin: Um yeah I'm linked with LT because I saved his life in SL when he was fighting Sammael. Make sure you guys don't cross balefire streams with him to prevent future linking problems with the Champion of Light.

 

The rest of the Chosen: You did WHAT?! Get him!

 

Lol

[mdnyttokr]

Any confrontation between Rand and Demandred will go VERY badly for Demandred. The only real shot Demandred had was at Shadar Logath during the cleansing. He missed that window. Since then, Rand has integrated LTT's memories, and come into his full power. There is NO WAY Demandred takes down Rand. With his memories intact, Rand will be ready for him.

 

But someone please refresh my memory: Do we actually KNOW (not just believe) why Ishamael/Moridin never wanted Rand killed? At first, I thought it was because he'd hoped to turn him to the Shadow, but as the series goes on, that seems less and less like the reason, though I suppose Moridin might still harbor a belief that he can turn Rand. The Body-Swap theory is the only one I can think of that might explain it. Moridin wants Rand's body, but again, why? Moridin's body is intact, young, vital, and has two hands. Why does Moridin STILL want Rand alive?

[makaveli422]

Probably because he is not sure if it will kill him too because of the link between them. And at the time of aCoS Moridin wanted the Choedan Kal I believe. When Rand lost his hand because of Semi Moridin felt it too and seems to have lost the use of his hand since then.

[TootThatHorn]

Probably because he is not sure if it will kill him too because of the link between them. And at the time of aCoS Moridin wanted the Choedan Kal I believe. When Rand lost his hand because of Semi Moridin felt it too and seems to have lost the use of his hand since then.

 

This... up until tGS i'm sure the goal was to turn him. Ishy may just want to live now to see the DO's plan come to fruition; unless he gets some hope from the link...

[dhammett11]

I think there is suspicion about the Rand/Moridin link though, some of the Forsaken are noticing some strange behavior. Also I think that it was Cyndane that commanded Slayer in the town, and it could be that she is aware of the link and is hoping that in killing Rand, Moridin will die as well. That's obviously speculation but as I've said before, Lanfear to me is the most self serving one of them all, and she may have found this to be a way to be free of Moridin without directly facing him. Who knows, it could have been a finn thing that lead her to this.

 

What? That was totally Hessalam in the Town with Slayer. I'd be shocked if Slayer didn't know Cyndane to recognize by this point.

[herid]

the woman is clearly Cyndane or somebody impersonating her (very unlikely IMO, not under Moridin's nose). The physical description fits her exactly, she refers to Rand as Lews Therin at one point and she is wearing Moridin's colors. Moggy no longer does after getting her mindtrap back from Moridin and neither does Hessalam.