[Full Prologue Spoiler] The Punishment of Cyndane

[Alleluia_Cone]

2. Brandon says her POVs are reliable on how she thinks. That means she truly does want Rand dead, and we can't trust what we saw in the TOM epilogue. (Which many of us already assumed.)

 

3. RAFO on whether she was the one talking to Isam. But the main objection to it being her was this idea that she really wanted to make peace with Rand, which is clearly not true.

 

I'm not sure that logical inference follows. It completely dismisses the possibility that Lanfear changed her mind since Winter's Heart (perhaps even on account of punishment she received for her actions in that book). Put another way, I don't think anybody ever assumed her POV was unreliable in Winter's Heart and that she didn't want to kill Rand when she clearly indicated she did. Your contention is that, because she wanted to kill Rand at that point, she wants to kill him now, no matter what interceding event may have happened (that we may not even know about).

 

I think the only thing we can take away from Brandon's quote is to be wary about making assumptions regarding that scene at the end of Towers of Midnight, which most readers were, even before his warning. That said, I think that warning cuts both ways.

[MarkDiLillo]

God I am going to be so disappointed if Cyndane is just another run of the mill bad guy and that whole dream sequence was a lame trap.

[SuperFade]

God I am going to be so disappointed if Cyndane is just another run of the mill bad guy and that whole dream sequence was a lame trap.

 

That's probably how it's going to be, sadly. Moral ambiguity was never RJ's strong suit, and his comments on the matter indicate that Lanfear was 100% evil from the start.

[Neophyte]

God I am going to be so disappointed if Cyndane is just another run of the mill bad guy and that whole dream sequence was a lame trap.

 

Yeah ... prepare to be disappointed ...

[MarkDiLillo]

Ya Im steeling myself now. One of the major legitimate complaints about WoT is how the characters all seem one dimensional and RJ never explores their morality or the possibility that they will change their outlook. I was hoping that we woud get an instance or two of humanity with Lanfear/Moridin in this last book.

[Terez]

2. Brandon says her POVs are reliable on how she thinks. That means she truly does want Rand dead, and we can't trust what we saw in the TOM epilogue. (Which many of us already assumed.)

 

3. RAFO on whether she was the one talking to Isam. But the main objection to it being her was this idea that she really wanted to make peace with Rand, which is clearly not true.

 

I'm not sure that logical inference follows. It completely dismisses the possibility that Lanfear changed her mind since Winter's Heart (perhaps even on account of punishment she received for her actions in that book).

 

Brandon is the one who dismissed that and warned us against taking the TOM epilogue at face value. As others below seem to realize, you really have to stretch what Brandon said to maintain the idea that she has changed her mind. You can do that if you like; it makes little difference to me. But I think Brandon has settled this one.

[MarkDiLillo]

I am wondering how the mind traps are going to play into the whole ending. It only fits RJs pattern to actually make use of the mind traps somehow in the plot; it seems entirely illogical to introduce them just to show how Moridin has them on a leash. Maybe they wont play that big of a part in anything, but their mere existence begs the question of why they were introduced and why so much emphasis has been placed on them. They seem to be a fairly important plot piece on the bad guys side.

[TLHansum]

I am wondering how much the price Moridin had to pay to kill her and release her plays into it.

I am sure he had to sacrifice something personal for his price, same as Mat.

 

I think Moridin just walked in through the ToG and blasted anyone that got into his way, went to the Chamber of Bonds and killed Lanfear and then walked out. I dont think he made any deal

[Agravayne]

I thought originally Isam was instructed by Cyndane; however, I'm now actually leaning more towards Alanna.

[Neophyte]

I am wondering how much the price Moridin had to pay to kill her and release her plays into it.

I am sure he had to sacrifice something personal for his price, same as Mat.

 

I think Moridin just walked in through the ToG and blasted anyone that got into his way, went to the Chamber of Bonds and killed Lanfear and then walked out. I dont think he made any deal

 

Well, he at least had a conversation with the Eelfinn, since Moiraine remembers his visit. She said:

 

"They claimed to have killed Lanfear by draining her too quickly, though I think they may have been trying to make me afraid. A man was there once, when they woke me. He said I was not the one he wanted."

 

He seems to have been talking with them calmly enough right then - she didn't say "A man blasted his way in once, saw me and said, "Bloody ashes in a tempest, you're not the one I want! You're the wrong person! Not even a Forsaken, since I'm looking for Lanfear. To make her into Cyndane."

 

(Did I overdo the Sanderson? )

 

Point is, given her recollection, he seems to have been talking with the Eelfinn in at least a semi-civil manner. He has plenty of stuff to trade to them, though, without having to give up something personal.

 

 

I thought originally Isam was instructed by Cyndane; however, I'm now actually leaning more towards Alanna.

 

Why would the Samma N'Sei mistake Alanna for one of the Chosen? She isn't remotely powerful enough, and she doesn't have the mark. She didn't just sneak into the bar and set Isam on a hunt - the person who talked with him also commanded a number of the Town's inhabitants.

 

Also, why would Alanna want Rand dead, even if she is Black? She'd still get the Warder-death effect. Unless you think she's setting Slayer up somehow?

[Suttree]

He seems to have been talking with them calmly enough right then - she didn't say "A man blasted his way in once, saw me and said, "Bloody ashes in a tempest, you're not the one I want! You're the wrong person! Not even a Forsaken, since I'm looking for Lanfear. To make her into Cyndane."

 

(Did I overdo the Sanderson? )

 

That's about right.

 

Dude, first the Heffalump and now this...on a roll Neo.

[The Fisher King]

Neo did very well. Except for omitting everyone saying "rightly", calling everyone "Son", and Blessing everyone. Oh, and "Froze."

 

As for me, I'm off to peruse more of the Madcap Adventures of that Zany and Wacky Master Crimson!!!

 

 

Fish

[Negawonka]

I thought that (based on what we know of how the mindtrap works) that both the Memory of Light prologue and Towers of Midnight epilogue had Cyndane behaving earnestly. We know that a person whose mindtrap is broken will behave as an automaton basically while their true selves watch from inside their head. What better punishment for Lanfear than to make her watch as she herself works tirelessly to kill her beloved Lews Therin? I think what we saw in the Towers of Midnight epilogue was her trueself who could only be reached in the world of dreams by visiting her dream.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Eh, I think she wants to escape punishment, and will use any means to escape. At the same time, I think she still hates Rand and wants him dead.

[yoniy0]

However late it is the FS met in Moridin's dreamshard, Cyndane's cour'souvra was still intact.

[snooze1128]

Straight from the recently transcribed Sanderson interview:

Loialson: In the prologue, Isam is hired by a female to [kill Rand?]. Is that Lanfear/Cyndane?

Brandon: Oh, I'm TOTALLY gonna RAFO that. Come ON! Come on. You KNEW I was gonna RAFO that. That's very important to the book.

Loialson: Okay, related: Moridin says 'the one who must be punished the most'. Obviously that's gotta be Cyndane, right?

Brandon: Okay, yes. That is Cyndane.

Loialson: So, is it possible that what happened in the epilogue, she was really going through that torture.

Brandon: You will have to see it. RAFO. I don't think, by the way...when you read the book, what Cyndane is up to should be of paramount importance to you, and DO NOT believe everything that you think happens in the book.

Loialson: From her point of view, or from our point of view?

Brandon: From your point of view, regarding her.

Loialson: Oh, boy.

 

This further indicates to me that, while Cyndane may want Rand dead, she is doing so for an entirely different reason than Moridin. I think she thinks that death of Rand via Isam is better for Lews Therrin than whatever means of death Moridin has planned for Rand. I'm pretty sure Cyndane still loves Lews Therin and will, in the end, end up benefitting the good guys moreso than the DO.

[MarkDiLillo]

The fact that he RAFO'd the Isam thing and said that it's very important makes me reconsider that it's Cyndane. If it was her then it was fairly obviously supposed to be her and there would be no reason for that sequence to be especially important or to shroud mystery over it. If it was Cyndane, then the scene seemed to just imply that Isam didn't recognize her. But now there seems to be something more to this.

[Suttree]

I'm pretty sure Cyndane still loves Lews Therin and will, in the end, end up benefitting the good guys moreso than the DO.

 

We know she always loved the association with LTT and that path to power that brought more than the man himself. RJ himself discounted her doing good for Rands sake long ago. It has always been about the power. That quote more than anything to me means the whole thing with her is a trap.

[MarkDiLillo]

There has got to be some kind of twist with the whole Cyndane thing. Just having her be another angry resurrected forsaken on a leash that is hell bent on killing Rand seems contrary to everything going on. It would almost be like a "SURPRISE! Just kidding, shes nothing special!" moment if thats how it turned out.

[Barid Bel Medar]

There has got to be some kind of twist with the whole Cyndane thing. Just having her be another angry resurrected forsaken on a leash that is hell bent on killing Rand seems contrary to everything going on. It would almost be like a "SURPRISE! Just kidding, shes nothing special!" moment if thats how it turned out.

 

I agree, but I also agree with Sutts, Lanfear would never do something good for Rand's sake.

 

So I think that both her hatred and her plea are genuine.

 

Her saying she wants to kill Rand isn't something big really. She is crazy emotional, one moment calm, the next exploding wagons everywhere and killing people.

 

I doubt she will hold to her hatred if she thought she could salvage something, or it didn't fit her motives.

 

While the dream itself was obviously a trap, I don't think she had to act too hard. As "most punished" I am sure she would like to be free of the torment. She is psychopathic, but that kind of torture would destroy anyone.

 

I think she would do anything to be free of Moridin, even give information that may be vital to Rand. Of course, she won't really be helping him, but herself, and eventually she will focus on either killing him or winning him back.

[herid]

One of Lanfear's deeds that surely earned her a harsh punishment was the fact that she knew that Rand had the access keys for the Choedan Kal, didn't take them from him and kept the fact a secret. It's made pretty clear in WH, CH 13 that Moridin eventually got that info out of her. This would have angered the DO greatly. It allowed Rand to cleanse saidin and was also the reason the do not kill order on Rand was lifted.

 

Also, I don't see how there can be any doubt of the person giving orders to Isam in the prologue is Cyndane. Who else could it be? There are only 3 female forsaken left and it's clearly neither Moggy nor Graendal/Hessalam. Further, she refers to Rand as Lews Therin at one point. Only one of the Forsaken would call him that and neither Moggy nor Graendal do that any more. She looks like Cyndane in appearance.

Lastly, it is explicitly mentioned that she is still wearing Moridin's colors

 

She was a pretty woman, dressed in black trimmed with red. Isam didn’t recognize her slim figure and delicate face.

That would be because Moridin still has her mindtrap and controls her rigidly. Moggy on the other hand is now allowed to choose her own closing and is no longer forced to wear Moridin's red and black.

Moghedien wore a gown of black and gold, lacework on the sleeves faintly reminiscent of a spider’s web. Only faintly. One did well not to overuse a theme.

 

All in all I have no doubt it's Cyndane.

[MarkDiLillo]

There has got to be some kind of twist with the whole Cyndane thing. Just having her be another angry resurrected forsaken on a leash that is hell bent on killing Rand seems contrary to everything going on. It would almost be like a "SURPRISE! Just kidding, shes nothing special!" moment if thats how it turned out.

 

I agree, but I also agree with Sutts, Lanfear would never do something good for Rand's sake.

 

So I think that both her hatred and her plea are genuine.

 

Her saying she wants to kill Rand isn't something big really. She is crazy emotional, one moment calm, the next exploding wagons everywhere and killing people.

 

I doubt she will hold to her hatred if she thought she could salvage something, or it didn't fit her motives.

 

While the dream itself was obviously a trap, I don't think she had to act too hard. As "most punished" I am sure she would like to be free of the torment. She is psychopathic, but that kind of torture would destroy anyone.

 

I think she would do anything to be free of Moridin, even give information that may be vital to Rand. Of course, she won't really be helping him, but herself, and eventually she will focus on either killing him or winning him back.

 

I still dont buy the dream sequence as a trap. If it was, then it was poorly written. There was no way that Cyndane/Moridin could ever anticipate Rand would appear in Moridins dream, and furthermore there is no evidence whatsoever that they could ever expect Rand to want to help her. He has never shown any indication that he would do anything but let her die. It would be similar to sticking Demandred or Sammael out on a stake and hoping Rand would come rescue them because they used to be pals pre-DO in the AoL. Considering the nature of the dreamworld, there are a million other trap possibilities that would have lured Rand much easier.

 

I think the dream sequence was a legitimate plea for help. It doesn't mean she is suddenly a good guy or suddenly wants Rand to live though. It just means that Rand saw Mierin being terribly tortured. Chances are Cyndane woke up and assumed that Rand was an invention of Moridin during his torture because it would have literally been impossible for Rand to appear in that dream unless she was intimiately aware of Rand and Moridins link.

[Maleshub]

Heav'n has no Rage, like Love to Hatred turn'd,

Nor Hell a Fury, like a Woman scorn'd.

[Terez]

Rand didn't appear in Moridin's dream. Moridin appeared in Rand's dream.

[MarkDiLillo]

Rand didn't appear in Moridin's dream. Moridin appeared in Rand's dream.

 

I think that its the same thing though given that they are merging into the same person. It was Rand's dream, but then suddenly Cyndane was there and he walked into a giant skull which we can only assume alludes to Moridin.

 

If it were Rand's dream then Cyndane/Moridin would lose control and not be able to manipulate the dream to their desired level to plant this so-called trap. We see throughout the series that if you enter into another persons dream you are purely a victim to their dream and even a skilled dreamwalker cannot control it. Unless we just want to assume that Cyndane and Moridin have some dreamwalking powers that exceed everything we've learned in the series so far, it's safe to say that while it started out as Rand's dream it certainly did not end that way.

 

Something happened where Rand was pulled unknowingly into another dream or sphere of influence that was outside of his direct control, or somehow Rand lost control of his own internal dreams. The only explanation that fits the story is the Moridin/Rand merging explanation. Otherwise, we'd have to just assume some brand new power or circumstance was just invented to explain the event. So if its Rand/Moridin merging then it seems highly unlikely that it's a trap given that Rand's appearance (or Cyndanes, however you want to look at it) could not have been anticipated. Also, as I mentioned, the whole idea of using Cyndane as bait is ridiculous and I dont see how anyone would assume Rand would help her in any way.

 

The only rational explanation for the trap theory would be "Moridin knows a lot more about the link than Rand, and is beginning to manipulate it to his advantage with Cyndane."