Caemlyn (FULL PROLOGUE SPOILERS)

[Ian Ohlander]

One thing to think about is the effect this battle is going to have on the leaders of the world being at Merrilor with forces large enough to intimidate the dragon reborn. I mean this scenario (very nearly- he was worried about the Seanchan) was King Darlin's and the steward of Illian's entire concern when Egwene asked them to come with a large military force, leaving a minimal force at home. She told them that she would have no problem whisking them back home if there was trouble. Obviously, in Elayne's case, no contingencies were planned for, despite Elayne's learning (from her little stint as a Forsaken to the captured black sisters) that Caemlyn would be coming under attack.

 

I have to believe that there is going to be some heavy blaming and scrambling and panicking going on, with people furious that the Last Battle has started (actually started earlier with the invasions of Kandor and Saldea) and instead of being their to defend their homelands, they were off at this meeting. Rand used the same tack against the Borderlanders (and Tenobia in particular) regarding the invasion and their not being there to protect their people. Elayne just managed to secure the throne of 2 countries are her rule is fragile. And now she's lost the capital of the entire Kingdom.

 

The repercussions of this, I think, are going to be huge. The meeting could break up with all the participants running to their homelands. It may erode some of Egwene's support. It may play into Rand's reasoning regarding the breaking of the seals at a time of his choosing. A lot depends on when they find out about the fall of Caemlyn.

 

But I think there will be fallout over this.

[MasterAblar]

One thing to think about is the effect this battle is going to have on the leaders of the world being at Merrilor with forces large enough to intimidate the dragon reborn. I mean this scenario (very nearly- he was worried about the Seanchan) was King Darlin's and the steward of Illian's entire concern when Egwene asked them to come with a large military force, leaving a minimal force at home. She told them that she would have no problem whisking them back home if there was trouble. Obviously, in Elayne's case, no contingencies were planned for, despite Elayne's learning (from her little stint as a Forsaken to the captured black sisters) that Caemlyn would be coming under attack.

 

I have to believe that there is going to be some heavy blaming and scrambling and panicking going on, with people furious that the Last Battle has started (actually started earlier with the invasions of Kandor and Saldea) and instead of being their to defend their homelands, they were off at this meeting. Rand used the same tack against the Borderlanders (and Tenobia in particular) regarding the invasion and their not being there to protect their people. Elayne just managed to secure the throne of 2 countries are her rule is fragile. And now she's lost the capital of the entire Kingdom.

 

The repercussions of this, I think, are going to be huge. The meeting could break up with all the participants running to their homelands. It may erode some of Egwene's support. It may play into Rand's reasoning regarding the breaking of the seals at a time of his choosing. A lot depends on when they find out about the fall of Caemlyn.

 

But I think there will be fallout over this.

 

That's a good point. Especially for a 1st post! Welcome to Dragonmount. I can't wait to see everyone's reaction to Caemlyn's fall.

[roocifer]

I thought the battle at Caemlyn could have been better written. It was a let down compared to Maradon. Not much happened and it was a short timeline. Aludra couldnt think to blow the wall down? Duh. It crossed my mind a couple times before it happened.....of course a good writer allows the reader to feel smart by catching on to things before they happen....

 

I think Talmanes survives, though his story line has ended. He seemed to be getting better at the end, and stronger after each black out he had. It was good to have this battle take place in the prologue so other battles and issues can be addressed in more detail later in the book.

 

Has there ever been a battle in a Prologue before? Not that I can remember. To me, the writing style fit with the way all WoT prologues have been written. We only catch brief glimpses of things happening in minor characters' plotlines. We know Brandon can write good battle scenes (though not as good as RJ), I don't think he ever intended to make the Battle of Caemlyn take up a lot of page space like Maradon.

 

In addition, remember that a well-written PoV reflects the personality, mindset, and condition of the character. Talmanes was in-and-out of pain and dizziness and dying...hence it makes sense that we wouldn't have an accurate idea of how many Trollocs there were and obvious solutions like blasting down the wall with the Dragons wouldn't come to mind right away

 

The prologue to KoD has Rodel Ituralde directing a battle against the Seanchan. The prologue of TGS has more Ituralde fighting and the beginning of a battle against Trollocs for Tylee Khirgan. The prologue of ToM has the beginning of the battle for Heeth Tower. But I think this is the most extensively battle-dedicated prologue we've seen.

 

Except, of course, for the prologue of The Shadow Rising. That was nothing but one huge battle!

 

Well shewt, I guess there were many battle in prologues lol. I just finished a re-read of the entire series and so much happened it's all running together

[b3arz3rg3r]

Andor was simply getting too strong. Andor + Cairhien + Dragons + an organisation of channellers all under one rule was just too much. Except for Andor Elayne pretty much got everything else handed to her. So Caemlyn had to go. With Caemlyn destroyed and most of its population dead Andor will be quite some time recovering from that.

[Ataxia]

No way Talmanes can survive this. Tough to see him go, but he went out potentially saving the war by saving those dragons.

[MarkDiLillo]

No way Talmanes can survive this. Tough to see him go, but he went out potentially saving the war by saving those dragons.

 

I agree. The whole series of scenes were designed to kill Talmanes off and allow the Light to use the dragons later on IMO. Sucks that Talmanes is a goner, but I'd be really surprised if he survived. Though typically deaths are shown with a little more finalism written into them and less of a cliff hanger....

[Bluedust9]

Already addressed this in another post, but might as well reiterate, this was not very enjoyable for me. Here is what I said in the other thread:

 

Frankly, I was underwhelmed. Talmanes is a funny character who is competent, wry, stoic, and a nice foil to Mat. Reading this through his POV completely killed the tension for me. The only time where I felt anything close to danger was when the Band was marching to the city and the rest of the mercenaries were just watching them, which I initially thought was indicative of imminent attack. Instead, the entire battle read for me like this:

 

Welp, I got cut by a Myrdraal, so I am dead. Hey mercenaries, lets go fight Trollocs. Weep woop, at the Palace now, hey Guybon, lets go get the Dragons. Weep woop, hey Aludra, lets get out of here. Weep woop, blast a hole in the wall to escape. Hey I am probably dead now. The end.

 

It just read like a list of things happening instead of a character in a horrible situation trying to salvage something.

 

For a comparison, read Ituraldes battle at Maradon and then come back and read the Battle of Caemlyn. Night and day difference.

 

See I felt exactly the opposite. Amazing, eh?

[Zewe]

No way Talmanes can survive this. Tough to see him go, but he went out potentially saving the war by saving those dragons.

 

I agree. The whole series of scenes were designed to kill Talmanes off and allow the Light to use the dragons later on IMO. Sucks that Talmanes is a goner, but I'd be really surprised if he survived. Though typically deaths are shown with a little more finalism written into them and less of a cliff hanger....

 

How would you go about this with more finality when the narration is coming from a man who's dying of a slow poison? I suppose you could cut away for a few paragraphs from someone in the vicinity's POV, but this works just as well in my opinion.

Or, Talmanes could survive. Which would suck. Not because I dislike Talmanes, but because I think it'd cheapen the whole thing if he pulled through.

[balefired-ed2]

Already addressed this in another post, but might as well reiterate, this was not very enjoyable for me. Here is what I said in the other thread:

 

Frankly, I was underwhelmed. Talmanes is a funny character who is competent, wry, stoic, and a nice foil to Mat. Reading this through his POV completely killed the tension for me. The only time where I felt anything close to danger was when the Band was marching to the city and the rest of the mercenaries were just watching them, which I initially thought was indicative of imminent attack. Instead, the entire battle read for me like this:

 

Welp, I got cut by a Myrdraal, so I am dead. Hey mercenaries, lets go fight Trollocs. Weep woop, at the Palace now, hey Guybon, lets go get the Dragons. Weep woop, hey Aludra, lets get out of here. Weep woop, blast a hole in the wall to escape. Hey I am probably dead now. The end.

 

It just read like a list of things happening instead of a character in a horrible situation trying to salvage something.

 

For a comparison, read Ituraldes battle at Maradon and then come back and read the Battle of Caemlyn. Night and day difference.

 

See I felt exactly the opposite. Amazing, eh?

 

Well, I dont trust people who play nightcrawlers, write musicals, go America all over everybodys ass, or do butt dances before they open up timecapsules, so up yours, jerk.

[Bluedust9]

Well played, and I mean that 100% unironically.

[TheAngryDruid]

One thing to think about is the effect this battle is going to have on the leaders of the world being at Merrilor with forces large enough to intimidate the dragon reborn. I mean this scenario (very nearly- he was worried about the Seanchan) was King Darlin's and the steward of Illian's entire concern when Egwene asked them to come with a large military force, leaving a minimal force at home. She told them that she would have no problem whisking them back home if there was trouble. Obviously, in Elayne's case, no contingencies were planned for, despite Elayne's learning (from her little stint as a Forsaken to the captured black sisters) that Caemlyn would be coming under attack.

 

I have to believe that there is going to be some heavy blaming and scrambling and panicking going on, with people furious that the Last Battle has started (actually started earlier with the invasions of Kandor and Saldea) and instead of being their to defend their homelands, they were off at this meeting. Rand used the same tack against the Borderlanders (and Tenobia in particular) regarding the invasion and their not being there to protect their people. Elayne just managed to secure the throne of 2 countries are her rule is fragile. And now she's lost the capital of the entire Kingdom.

 

The repercussions of this, I think, are going to be huge. The meeting could break up with all the participants running to their homelands. It may erode some of Egwene's support. It may play into Rand's reasoning regarding the breaking of the seals at a time of his choosing. A lot depends on when they find out about the fall of Caemlyn.

 

But I think there will be fallout over this.

 

Good points. I had forgotten that Elayne knew Caemlyn would be attacked, yet she still left it virtually unguarded, and with virtually no channelers behind. Even dumber.

 

As to the earlier question about bringing half the Band, how she got the authority, and why she did it. All that is hashed out during her meeting with Mat in ToM. She didn't want to bring Andoran soldiers into Cairhien (bad move politically, don't want tension) and the Band already have a good rep there from the kicking some Shaido tail (and some White Lions under Gaebril). Mat allowed it, as part of the deal for her financing the construction of the Dragons and whatnot.

[Suttree]

Good points. I had forgotten that Elayne knew Caemlyn would be attacked, yet she still left it virtually unguarded, and with virtually no channelers behind. Even dumber.

 

She knew Andor would be attacked which is not at all the same thing. In addition along with Rand she thought the way gate was protected.

[jburkal'hard]

What if Rand put a trap on the waygate just as he did at Shador Logoth. And while the Trollocs destroy much of Caemlyn, Elayne and company come back to a city burned and an entire army of Trollocs dead from his trap.

[goldenking]

Yeh he did put a slow killing weave system on the gate. So if Brandon has not forgotten that, Talmanes and the band will get out through the hole with the citizens, the Trollocs plunder Caemlyn all the way and Die after some time.

[Terez]

Rand never said he put a trap on the Caemlyn gate. He just said it was guarded. Later he used the word 'sealed' but we don't know what he meant by that.

[Wolf505]

I could see Talmanes surviving this. Think about it, Mat is on his way back from ToG and has Moiraine with him. He'll want to return to the Band first, of course. He arrives, sees Caemlyn in flames and hears the dragons blow down part of the wall so he heads that way. Moiraine is experienced in healing wounds from fade blades and if she linked with Grady or Neald (whichever one makes their Gateway- remember, both know how to link, as does Moiraine of course) I could see her healing Talmanes. Just saying it's not outside the realm of possibility, and Mat arriving just in time to save Talmanes and what remains of the Band is exactly his cup of tea, so to speak.

 

On another note, I'm glad the Taim=Demandred/Moridin issue has finally been put to rest. It seems Taim is.... Taim and was likely trained by both Ishy and Demandred at some point in the near past, hence all his second age knowledge and his surviving so long without going mad. The Moggy POV section was very illuminating.

[78WARLOCK]

No way Talmanes can survive this. Tough to see him go, but he went out potentially saving the war by saving those dragons.

 

I agree. Maybe he'll return as a hero to the horn ?

[78WARLOCK]

Rand never said he put a trap on the Caemlyn gate. He just said it was guarded. Later he used the word 'sealed' but we don't know what he meant by that.

I agree with that. he put a trap on the one in Shadar Logoth.By "sealed" Loial had put both leaves on the outside so it could not be opened from inside. He did that at all the waygates he and Asha'man ( ? ) visited.The only Waygate Loial actually destroyed was Manethrens. He removed the leaves which will "kill" the waygate and would need the talisman of growing to restore.

[Terez]

Rand never said he put a trap on the Caemlyn gate. He just said it was guarded. Later he used the word 'sealed' but we don't know what he meant by that.

I agree with that.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with it; that's what Rand said.

[Duskfire]

If the Waygate was sealed in however way it was, there would be a way to unseal it.

[Ian Ohlander]

Good points. I had forgotten that Elayne knew Caemlyn would be attacked, yet she still left it virtually unguarded, and with virtually no channelers behind. Even dumber.

 

She knew Andor would be attacked which is not at all the same thing. In addition along with Rand she thought the way gate was protected.

 

I think knowing Andor was going to be attacked, and that things have started to boil over in the world, her leaving behind a minimal force in her capital and less than a handful of weaker wise women still qualifies as dumb. Especially since she knows Duhara is in the city (and by now, Egwene may have told her that she was Black) as well as Marrilin and Falion still being unaccounted for.

 

So she knows the following:

Invasion of Andor is coming.

Black sisters missing but presumably still in Andor and busy planning the invasion, as Chesmal told her.

The invasions in the north (which she has to have heard of by now) are about taking down the entire nation, with the capital as it's focus. (See Rand's comments about what the dark one wanted when he decided to defend Maradon). Common sense tells you that the focus will be the capital at some point.

Even if the capital is not the immediate target, you still have a responsibility to your subjects outside the capital and to be able to respond at a moments notice.

 

Instead you leave your nation poorly defended on the assumption that you can get back in an instant, but then leave only 4 people behind to notify you if you are needed, but none of them are able to make a gateway by themselves so the can notify you. Yeah, that's dumb.

 

Again, I think there will be some political fallout in Merrilor over this situation (and I'm not referring to the horrible loss and sadness over losing Andor.)

[Suttree]

Instead you leave your nation poorly defended on the assumption that you can get back in an instant, but then leave only 4 people behind to notify you if you are needed, but none of them are able to make a gateway by themselves so the can notify you. Yeah, that's dumb.

 

I agree with you, it's is dumb. Some of the dumbest and most dubious plot work of to date and that is saying something after TGS and ToM. The whole thing beggars belief and as many have stated there are any number of more elegant ways he could have handled the situation.

[David Selig]

It's not like there wasn't plenty of similar plot-induced stupidity in the first 11 books. It's always been a staple of WoT to move the plot along by making the characters act like idiots when necessary.

[Suttree]

It's not like there wasn't plenty of similar plot-induced stupidity in the first 11 books. It's always been a staple of WoT to move the plot along by making the characters act like idiots when necessary.

 

Come now David, you know the plot work has taken a nose dive these last two books a number of times. Further the use of "dumbing down" has sky rocketed. As you know I pointed out problems with RJ many times over the years and im in no way saying he didn't make mistakes but lets be allowed to call it like we see it eh?

[David Selig]

I call it how I see it. In terms of characters being made to act like an idiots to move the plot along, Sanderson is no worse than Jordan in my opinion.I can cite blatant examples from the first 11 books al day.