CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[herid]

Not sure if this has been discussed already but I have problems with Leilwin's line. Why is she looking for Elayne at FOM?? If she wanted Elayne she had plenty of opportunities to see her in Caemlyn. She spent several days in Caemlyn with Mat before leaving for Tar Valon and it's quite inconceivable that she would not find out in all that time who the queen of Andor was. So why travel all the way to Tar Valon and then to FOM?

 

I assumed that the full reality of the situation didn't hit her until she arrived at TV and saw lots of AS living ordinary lives, without destroying each other or their surroundings.

Nah, she figured all that out long before she got to Tar Valon - she's been in Aes Sedai company for a long time. I've reread her POV and I have to conclude that she just doesn't know that Elayne is the queen of Andor. She never thinks of her as a queen but just as an Aes Sedai. And she is looking for her in Tar Valon and then in the Aes Sedai camp at FOM. The queen of Andor is not likely to be at any of those places.

 

This is really silly because as I mentioned she spent several days in Caemlyn. Moreover, Elayne told her that she was the daughter-heir of Andor when they first met (TSR, CH 46) so Leilwin really ought to have put two and two together even if somehow she didn't hear the Queen's name while in Caemlyn.

I guess it's one of those things like the "prescient rumors" about the Tower unification and the raken attacking the White Tower in tGS.

 

But there are other problems with Leilwin's line too. She went to Tar Valon together with 3 Aes Sedai but she doesn't seem to have asked for their help in locating Elayne and Nynaeve once she got there. Not very clever of her. Also, Joline sent a letter to mistress Anan after getting to Tar Valon and Mistress Anan received it before Mat even left for the TG. That would suggest that Leilwin spent quite some time in Tar Valon before going to FOM which doesn't make much sense.

[sleepinghour]

With many newly raised sisters from the powerful Novices and Accepted.

 

Newly raised sisters who will have very little experience. Most of the novices and accepted will have been training since chapter 17 of tPoD, around 180 days for the first ones to sign up. That's really not much, and none of them have any experience in battle, except for the few who were in the WT at the time of the Seanchan raid.

 

I found that part a little weird (in the book, that is). Being raised to the shawl won't make much of a difference except that it permits them to bond a Warder. Instead, why not pair some Accepted up with some of Gawyn's former Younglings and let them work together during the Last Battle. The bodyguard won't have extra strength and healing without the bond, but neither will either of them fall apart emotionally if the other dies.

 

In the Keeper's antechamber, she passed a pair of Accepted—Nicola, who had just been raised, and Nissa. She'd like them both raised to the shawl before the Last Battle. They were young, but powerful, and every sister would be needed—even one who, like Nicola, had proved to have terrible judgment in the past.

 

I also find it a bit of a stretch that Nicola would be ready for the shawl when she only became a novice in TFoH. Yes, she had great OP potential and practiced as much as she could, but it seems impossible for anyone to progress that fast—for anyone who isn't Nynaeve, it's very time-consuming and difficult to learn the hundred weaves. We saw how much Moiraine (who was exceptionally talented as well) struggled with them in NS; Egwene herself hasn't even learned them all yet.

 

Secondly, there's much more to being Aes Sedai than channeling ability. Judging by what happens to Nicola later on, Egwene never even should have allowed her near T'A'R in the first place. But if Nicola had been raised to Aes Sedai, she would have been able to order most other sisters around because of her strength and make important decisions. Nicola—who Egwene acknowledges has a recent history of blackmail and bad judgment—was completely unsuitable to have that much power and responsibility without any maturity or experience to go with it.

 

I think the point of this whole idea was to make it seem like Egwene was doing all she could to prepare the Tower for the Last Battle, but instead it comes off like she's planting the seeds for disaster by raising people too early.

[TootThatHorn]

Not sure if this has been discussed already but I have problems with Leilwin's line. Why is she looking for Elayne at FOM?? If she wanted Elayne she had plenty of opportunities to see her in Caemlyn. She spent several days in Caemlyn with Mat before leaving for Tar Valon and it's quite inconceivable that she would not find out in all that time who the queen of Andor was. So why travel all the way to Tar Valon and then to FOM?

 

The pattern wanted her beside Egwene. And Leilwin was intent on Tar Valon. She wanted to go there to understand and to work to lift the injustice perpetrated against damane. She wanted Tar Valon first, then Nynaeve or Elayne.

 

I'm curious if the pattern doesn't want them near Rand. At the fields we will now have Rand, all the girls (Min, Avi, Elayne) and Captain Domon, although it seems without a boat. But do you see where I'm going with this? There is a potential here for a fulfilling of a prophecy, which time is drawing in for when these need to start to get tied up.

[herid]

Not sure if this has been discussed already but I have problems with Leilwin's line. Why is she looking for Elayne at FOM?? If she wanted Elayne she had plenty of opportunities to see her in Caemlyn. She spent several days in Caemlyn with Mat before leaving for Tar Valon and it's quite inconceivable that she would not find out in all that time who the queen of Andor was. So why travel all the way to Tar Valon and then to FOM?

 

 

The pattern wanted her beside Egwene.

He, he. This explanation would certainly cover any number of problems including this one but I don't like it. One of the things I like most about WOT is that despite the huge complexity of its world it all fits together and the actions of the characters are logical. In a few instances where the pattern interferes and makes it not so ( e.g. in ta'veren effects) it's always explicitly spelled out.

And Leilwin was intent on Tar Valon. She wanted to go there to understand and to work to lift the injustice perpetrated against damane. She wanted Tar Valon first, then Nynaeve or Elayne.

Ok, that is better but is still problematic. Even we assume that, Leilwin should have known that she would not find Elayne there. She pretty clearly doesn't.

[Maleshub]

Not sure if this has been discussed already but I have problems with Leilwin's line. Why is she looking for Elayne at FOM?? If she wanted Elayne she had plenty of opportunities to see her in Caemlyn. She spent several days in Caemlyn with Mat before leaving for Tar Valon and it's quite inconceivable that she would not find out in all that time who the queen of Andor was. So why travel all the way to Tar Valon and then to FOM?

 

 

The pattern wanted her beside Egwene.

He, he. This explanation would certainly cover any number of problems including this one but I don't like it. One of the things I like most about WOT is that despite the huge complexity of its world it all fits together and the actions of the characters are logical. In a few instances where the pattern interferes and makes it not so ( e.g. in ta'veren effects) it's always explicitly spelled out.

And Leilwin was intent on Tar Valon. She wanted to go there to understand and to work to lift the injustice perpetrated against damane. She wanted Tar Valon first, then Nynaeve or Elayne.

Ok, that is better but is still problematic. Even we assume that, Leilwin should have known that she would not find Elayne there. She pretty clearly doesn't.

 

Regarding "The Pattern demanded it," we have an Egwene dream where she and women around her confront Rand; and one of the women a Seanchan. If that applied to Merrilor, then the Pattern demanded Leilwin to go to Tar Valon. Her motive might have been to seek out Nynaeve and Elayne; but it was only the motivation towards her true purpose.

 

I don't much like "The Pattern demanded it" either; but it has been a theme throughout the books. Talmanes took half the Band 300 miles into the Lion's den because he felt Mat pulling him.

 

As to the second, it goes with the same problem that prevented Joline, an Aes Sedai, from discovering how to make Gateways when transported from Trustair to Caemlyn. She went through the gateway, but apparantly Verin refused to give her the weave. And Elayne refused to meet her, an Aes Sedai, forcing her to journey to Tar Valon on horseback. Joline's failure to learn Traveling and Elayne's refusal to meet her and Travel her to Tar Valon (after the Tower was united) are more strange than Leilwin missing out on Elayne in Caemlyn.

[Valley of Death]

I was just reading the Eye of the World and at the end Ishmael said that "Aiel allowed to flee" or something to that extent. Is this confirmation that the red vieled people are definitely Aiel? or has everyone already agreed on that?

[Sid]

That is presumably the Maidens that were nearly dead, and left a message with the Tuatha'an in the waste about the Eye of the World.

 

It surely seems that the Red-Veils are Aielmen that can channel, or their descendants.

[David Selig]

As to the second, it goes with the same problem that prevented Joline, an Aes Sedai, from discovering how to make Gateways when transported from Trustair to Caemlyn. She went through the gateway, but apparantly Verin refused to give her the weave. And Elayne refused to meet her, an Aes Sedai, forcing her to journey to Tar Valon on horseback. Joline's failure to learn Traveling and Elayne's refusal to meet her and Travel her to Tar Valon (after the Tower was united) are more strange than Leilwin missing out on Elayne in Caemlyn.

The Tower wasn't united at this point. Though you'd think Joline and Teslyn would have the good sense to send Edesyna, who was one of the Salidar faction, to ask for an audience with Elayne...Or wait for mat's audience and ask him to explain the situation to Elayne, etc.

 

And I agree with herid that Egeanin's behaviour makes no sense, I complained about it some pages back. She seems totally unaware Elayne is the Queen of Andor, which is just silly.

[Maleshub]

As to the second, it goes with the same problem that prevented Joline, an Aes Sedai, from discovering how to make Gateways when transported from Trustair to Caemlyn. She went through the gateway, but apparantly Verin refused to give her the weave. And Elayne refused to meet her, an Aes Sedai, forcing her to journey to Tar Valon on horseback. Joline's failure to learn Traveling and Elayne's refusal to meet her and Travel her to Tar Valon (after the Tower was united) are more strange than Leilwin missing out on Elayne in Caemlyn.

The Tower wasn't united at this point. Though you'd think Joline and Teslyn would have the good sense to send Edesyna, who was one of the Salidar faction, to ask for an audience with Elayne...Or wait for mat's audience and ask him to explain the situation to Elayne, etc.

 

And I agree with herid that Egeanin's behaviour makes no sense, I complained about it some pages back. She seems totally unaware Elayne is the Queen of Andor, which is just silly.

 

Yeah, that whole sequence of events starting from Trustair to Mat's letter and his agreement with Elayne over the Dragons had quite a few glaring holes and strange developments.

 

Mat who sneaked in the Royal Palace and delivered a letter to Morgase with a Foresaken to watch couldn't think of how to have a quick meeting with a friend (2 friends including Birgitte).

[Jeck]

Questions that we can speculate in,

 

Isam would probably not recognize Cyndane but why isn't Brandon just confirming its her, why is it a secret if its her? (which I think it is) and why does she keep looking into her reflection if it's her. (I guess Cyndane could use a MoM buts its unlikely when she's not recognized anyway)

 

What is Rand gonna do after his meeting at FoM? aid Caemlyn? Aid Lan?(I guess just send some part of his army there is enough) so both options is possible. Moiraine will see him probably very soon. Assassin attempt will most likely occur and Perrin will be there to save him but when will this happend?

 

Mins view of Lan, a baby in a cradle with a sword hovering? how is this gonna be fulfilled?

 

Who will aid Caemlyn if not Rand? When will they find out that Caemlyn has been taken?

 

Black Tower resolvement? Feels like they need a lot more female channelers for the circles. Where's Logain?

How many DF Ashaman's is there? 100? 200?

 

What in army numbers (non-channelers) is equivalent to the numbers of DF Asha'mans? reason for asking is that then we can speculate a bit more in detail about the armies of Demandred, numbers without channelers/or channelers and possible where his armies comes from.

[Maleshub]

Questions that we can speculate in,

 

Isam would probably not recognize Cyndane but why isn't Brandon just confirming its her, why is it a secret if its her? (which I think it is) and why does she keep looking into her reflection if it's her. (I guess Cyndane could use a MoM buts its unlikely when she's not recognized anyway)

 

What is Rand gonna do after his meeting at FoM? aid Caemlyn? Aid Lan?(I guess just send some part of his army there is enough) so both options is possible. Moiraine will see him probably very soon. Assassin attempt will most likely occur and Perrin will be there to save him but when will this happend?

 

Rand has at least 400,000 committed soldiers at the moment: about 200,000 Aiel, another 200,000 Borderlanders. He might send the Aiel to rescue Caemlyn and the Borderlanders back to their respective kingdoms. And I think that is Demandred's plan: force Rand to split his forces. Mat bringing the Seanchan from the south could foil Demandred's genius.

[MasterAblar]

Questions that we can speculate in,

 

Isam would probably not recognize Cyndane but why isn't Brandon just confirming its her, why is it a secret if its her? (which I think it is) and why does she keep looking into her reflection if it's her. (I guess Cyndane could use a MoM buts its unlikely when she's not recognized anyway)

 

What is Rand gonna do after his meeting at FoM? aid Caemlyn? Aid Lan?(I guess just send some part of his army there is enough) so both options is possible. Moiraine will see him probably very soon. Assassin attempt will most likely occur and Perrin will be there to save him but when will this happend?

 

Mins view of Lan, a baby in a cradle with a sword hovering? how is this gonna be fulfilled?

 

Who will aid Caemlyn if not Rand? When will they find out that Caemlyn has been taken?

 

Black Tower resolvement? Feels like they need a lot more female channelers for the circles. Where's Logain?

How many DF Ashaman's is there? 100? 200?

 

What in army numbers (non-channelers) is equivalent to the numbers of DF Asha'mans? reason for asking is that then we can speculate a bit more in detail about the armies of Demandred, numbers without channelers/or channelers and possible where his armies comes from.

 

There were 448 Ashsman as of chapter 14 of tPoD with 3 or 4 more coming in every day. Later in chapter 18 of KoD, Logain reports that half the Ashaman are now out of the BT and there are 41 full Ashaman with Taim and 50 more in his "special classes". We can assume that the are all darkfriends. There are 77 days between these two chapters. At a rate of 3 or 4 more recruits each day there should be 221 to 308 more Ashaman at the BT, for a total of 669 to 756 Ashaman overall 91 of whom are darkfriends. That's about 12 to 14 percent of all Ashaman. Fast forward to the end of ToM and you 255 to 340 more recruits, for a total of 924 to 1096 Ashaman. If the percentage of darkfriends is still the same, then there are 111 to 153 darkfriends at the BT. There are number of other things to consider such as greater number of recruits (I'm suprised they only find 3 or 4 each day with over 50 recruiting parties out each day), deaths, turnings, burning outs, etc... but I imagine that there are at least 1000 Ashaman as Taim promised back in LoC.

[MasterAblar]

Questions that we can speculate in,

 

Isam would probably not recognize Cyndane but why isn't Brandon just confirming its her, why is it a secret if its her? (which I think it is) and why does she keep looking into her reflection if it's her. (I guess Cyndane could use a MoM buts its unlikely when she's not recognized anyway)

 

What is Rand gonna do after his meeting at FoM? aid Caemlyn? Aid Lan?(I guess just send some part of his army there is enough) so both options is possible. Moiraine will see him probably very soon. Assassin attempt will most likely occur and Perrin will be there to save him but when will this happend?

 

Rand has at least 400,000 committed soldiers at the moment: about 200,000 Aiel, another 200,000 Borderlanders. He might send the Aiel to rescue Caemlyn and the Borderlanders back to their respective kingdoms. And I think that is Demandred's plan: force Rand to split his forces. Mat bringing the Seanchan from the south could foil Demandred's genius.

 

He probably has more than 400, 000, counting Tear, Illian, Perrin's forces, the Band of the Red Hand, the Aiel, the Borderlanders, Bashere's cavalry, whatever he's got from Arad Doman, Dobraine's armsmen, and then there's the Legion of the Dragon, although there may be doubts on their loyalty.

[Bastor]

Anyone else wondering what the Darkfriend Biar is going to be doing at the glass pillars? What information she will return (I mean we are kindda sure she is the one who betrayed Cadsuane and is a DF right?)

[MasterAblar]

Anyone else wondering what the Darkfriend Biar is going to be doing at the glass pillars? What information she will return (I mean we are kindda sure she is the one who betrayed Cadsuane and is a DF right?)

 

She can't channel, so there's no reason to believe she betrayed Cadsuane.

[Jeck]

There were 448 Ashsman as of chapter 14 of tPoD with 3 or 4 more coming in every day. Later in chapter 18 of KoD, Logain reports that half the Ashaman are now out of the BT and there are 41 full Ashaman with Taim and 50 more in his "special classes". We can assume that the are all darkfriends. There are 77 days between these two chapters. At a rate of 3 or 4 more recruits each day there should be 221 to 308 more Ashaman at the BT, for a total of 669 to 756 Ashaman overall 91 of whom are darkfriends. That's about 12 to 14 percent of all Ashaman. Fast forward to the end of ToM and you 255 to 340 more recruits, for a total of 924 to 1096 Ashaman. If the percentage of darkfriends is still the same, then there are 111 to 153 darkfriends at the BT. There are number of other things to consider such as greater number of recruits (I'm suprised they only find 3 or 4 each day with over 50 recruiting parties out each day), deaths, turnings, burning outs, etc... but I imagine that there are at least 1000 Ashaman as Taim promised back in LoC.

 

And how big of army is the DF's equivalent to? (superoptimistic) of non-channelers? not aiel, but regular soldiers with a great commander(Demandred) like 30k?

[Bluedust9]

After Jason's comments about laughing at the end of the book, and if "time" really is the last word, I hereby say that the ending of the book will be the wind in the fourth age saying there's no beginning nor end to the Wheel of Time. I will be tarred and feathered otherwise.

 

Edit: The wind flowing though some place the end of the 3rd Age caused, to clarify.

[Maleshub]

Questions that we can speculate in,

 

Isam would probably not recognize Cyndane but why isn't Brandon just confirming its her, why is it a secret if its her? (which I think it is) and why does she keep looking into her reflection if it's her. (I guess Cyndane could use a MoM buts its unlikely when she's not recognized anyway)

 

What is Rand gonna do after his meeting at FoM? aid Caemlyn? Aid Lan?(I guess just send some part of his army there is enough) so both options is possible. Moiraine will see him probably very soon. Assassin attempt will most likely occur and Perrin will be there to save him but when will this happend?

 

Rand has at least 400,000 committed soldiers at the moment: about 200,000 Aiel, another 200,000 Borderlanders. He might send the Aiel to rescue Caemlyn and the Borderlanders back to their respective kingdoms. And I think that is Demandred's plan: force Rand to split his forces. Mat bringing the Seanchan from the south could foil Demandred's genius.

 

He probably has more than 400, 000, counting Tear, Illian, Perrin's forces, the Band of the Red Hand, the Aiel, the Borderlanders, Bashere's cavalry, whatever he's got from Arad Doman, Dobraine's armsmen, and then there's the Legion of the Dragon, although there may be doubts on their loyalty.

 

You're right, Rand's overall forces are much more. But I disregarded Tear and Illian due to the confrontation with Rand over the Seals. Anyway, my original quote was off mark for my intentions. Bael and Rhuarc only had 70K spears. The other clans, I assume are still around Cairhien and in Illian.

 

My thoughts were that if Rand wanted to move immediately in reaction to the fall of Caemlyn, he would depend on the Aiel and Borderlanders more than Illian's forces that need to be sent back there.

 

I totally forgot about Perrin's army, which might play a significant role in the liberation of Caemlyn, cementing the Two Rivers to Caemlyn and giving Perrin further leverage with Elayne.

 

In any case, away from my jumbled thoughts, is there any estimate or breakdown of the forces in Merrilor? My guess is around half a million:

 

Aiel: 70K

Andor/Cairhien: 50K

Illian: 30K

Tear: 100K

Borderlanders: 200K

Perrin: 70K

WT: 100K

[Dollhouse]

What is Rand gonna do after his meeting at FoM?

Knowing how Rand/Lews thinks, he will undoubtedly feel he is smart enough to try and outsmart people that are trying to outsmart him. His whole ploy is to get it over with as quickly as possible. I.E as soon as the rest of the world agrees or disagrees he would travel directly to where he plans to heal the bore.

 

BUT, like I said -- he is always trying to outsmart people so if this is RJ's Rand/Lews, then he probably has some sort of detour/trap set up where he will try to lure out as many of the Chosen+other major enemies as possible. The whole meeting kind of seems like something like this...

 

Then of course there is the whole Mierin thing. Mierin more than anyone has always been Rand/Lews personal problem. So it kind of feels to me he plans to make a detour just before facing the Great Lord and kneeling at Shayol Ghul...

[XXX]

Why would Rand send armies to help Andor. What about Elayne and Andor's armies?

 

BTW does anyone have a theory on what Rand went back to Tear to get as the Wise Ones tell Avi in the prologue? Callander is already with him as he had it when he went to meet the borderlanders.

[TootThatHorn]

Why would Rand send armies to help Andor. What about Elayne and Andor's armies?

 

BTW does anyone have a theory on what Rand went back to Tear to get as the Wise Ones tell Avi in the prologue? Callander is already with him as he had it when he went to meet the borderlanders.

 

I figured he may have stashed the seals there? Only thing I could think of. Can't remember if he had said where they are or not.

[Shai-tan]

Could there be something in the great hold he remembered after VoG?

[The Fisher King]

The bearded little fat man.

 

 

Fish

[Shai-tan]

The bearded little fat man.

 

 

Fish

I thought he lost that at Đumai's Wells?

[Amandera]

He did. Taim may have found it in the chaos by the way.

 

As for what he got from Tear, it can one of be the Seals. But I don't think he would have stashed all three in one place and I don't think pre-VoG Rand would have entrusted them to anybody. So where are the other two? If he went to get one of them himself, wouldn't he do the same for the others?