CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[Entreri]

Even Jesus Rand is going to have trouble avoding all the death traps.

 

Too bad Fain was not mentioned. Mashadar is a pretty awesome weapon, turning those Trollocs like that. I wonder what it would do to a gholam?

[driedraspberry]

My my, but the list of people wanting to kill Rand with their own hands just grows longer and longer. Whoever manages the feat, are we then looking at a free-for-all between Demandred, Cyndane, Fain and Gawyn?

 

If Rand's smart he'd enlist the four of them as his body guards. Amidst the clash of egos not only would they stop each other from laying a hand on him, but just about anyone else.

[draborn88]

My my, but the list of people wanting to kill Rand with their own hands just grows longer and longer. Whoever manages the feat, are we then looking at a free-for-all between Demandred, Cyndane, Fain and Gawyn?

 

Is there an actual legitimate chance of Gawyn killing Rand? I admit, I'm still quite new to the world of the Wheel of Time (being only half way through my first re-read), but wasn't Gawyn's reason for wanting to kill Rand because he we was under the impression that Rand killed Morgase? I know he still has the ter'angreals from the Bloodknives and no doubt something funky will go down, but I guess I just assumed that his business with Rand would be done since he now knows that his mom is alive.

[Neophyte]

My my, but the list of people wanting to kill Rand with their own hands just grows longer and longer. Whoever manages the feat, are we then looking at a free-for-all between Demandred, Cyndane, Fain and Gawyn?

 

Is there an actual legitimate chance of Gawyn killing Rand? I admit, I'm still quite new to the world of the Wheel of Time (being only half way through my first re-read), but wasn't Gawyn's reason for wanting to kill Rand because he we was under the impression that Rand killed Morgase? I know he still has the ter'angreals from the Bloodknives and no doubt something funky will go down, but I guess I just assumed that his business with Rand would be done since he now knows that his mom is alive.

 

Exactly. Gawyn had sworn off of killing Rand even before he found out that Morgase wasn't dead. New that he's seen her alive, the only possible scenario which sees him going after Rand is if Rand's conflict with Egwene escalates to a ridiculous level, and he goes after Rand as Egwene's Warder. He has no personal reason left.

[XXX]

Rand goes to meet Perrin in the first chapter. Why does Perrin not congratulate Rand on becoming a father immediately. Atleast that is what a normal friend would do. Instead he starts talking about people from their village? WTF

[XXX]

My my, but the list of people wanting to kill Rand with their own hands just grows longer and longer. Whoever manages the feat, are we then looking at a free-for-all between Demandred, Cyndane, Fain and Gawyn?

 

Is there an actual legitimate chance of Gawyn killing Rand? I admit, I'm still quite new to the world of the Wheel of Time (being only half way through my first re-read), but wasn't Gawyn's reason for wanting to kill Rand because he we was under the impression that Rand killed Morgase? I know he still has the ter'angreals from the Bloodknives and no doubt something funky will go down, but I guess I just assumed that his business with Rand would be done since he now knows that his mom is alive.

 

Gawyn's just a fool.After all he agreed to be Egwene's doormat, what else can be expected!!

[Maleshub]

So Elayne's capital is toast, will she try to goo back and save her country or go to the WT to help out during the Seachan attack?

Save her country, of course. If the danger of the BT becomes well known, that's one more reason for her to go back. Towards that end, I think its significant that the Palace is still okay, as of the Prologue. Add that to Mat's comments about how very well suited the Palace is to resisting invasion (even should the outer and inner walls fail), almost a bunker, and I think there's a good chance a substantial portion of Elayne's army will come sweeping out and push back the Trollocs, only to meet up with the battle at the Black Tower.

 

Or she could land there, push back the Trollocs, then an even bigger force could come to trap her in the Palace (with the range of the Dreamspike extended perhaps?). Lots of possibilities, but she's certainly not going to the Tower. Why should she? The Tower's army is plenty big (200,000+ well trained soldeirs). They can handle the Seanchan.

 

Just a comment on the WT's military machine. Pre-unification Elaida had 50K Tower Guards and Egwene had 70K under Bryne. After reunification, the WT tried to recruit and train new soldiers. How much could they have recruited in a month? 30K, 50K? My estimate is that the Tower has less than 200K in total forces, probably closer to 150K than 200K. But I don't expect the WT to have exceeded 200K.

 

I just don't get it how could anyone think the waygate was safe in the 1st place. They are supposed to know that the entry can be blasted by the power (happened on-screen).

 

+1

 

So much lost in translation throughout WoT. It seems that each major character has to invent his own wheel in one thing or another.

 

Rand goes to meet Perrin in the first chapter. Why does Perrin not congratulate Rand on becoming a father immediately. Atleast that is what a normal friend would do. Instead he starts talking about people from their village? WTF

 

If you apply logic to it, Min should have told Rand during one of their numerous private sessions. And Perrin would certainly have told Rand about his agreement with Elayne and the Two Rivers. Seems to be more important that telling him about when he and Faile fell down the stairs of the Winespring Inn! But hey, this is WoT, where communication is terrible!

[yoniy0]

Why? All of that has very little to do with TG, and they're just old friends meeting after a long time. Let them reminisce, won't you?

[Mr Hindley]

Apologies if this has been touched on before, but... in the Forsaken coffee hour (last of its kind, probably?), Moridin says to Demandred, 'There are people you need to meet'. People - plural. But we only see Taim arrive. (Moggy and the Graeffalump don't seem to count, Moridin dismisses Graendal with a 'no, not her, you're met her before'.

 

So was there someone else due to arrive who we didn't see? Probably not, maybe just a slip of the keyboard on BS's part Still...

 

Also, any thoughts on which army Moghedien has been assigned to? Moridin mentions one of the armies 'that now lacks proper monitoring', which suggests that previously, it was being monitored. I'm guessing the Seanchan forces..? Or possibly the WT, now that Aran'gar is toast and Mesaana is drooling in a corner somewhere.

[XXX]

 

 

If you apply logic to it, Min should have told Rand during one of their numerous private sessions. And Perrin would certainly have told Rand about his agreement with Elayne and the Two Rivers. Seems to be more important that telling him about when he and Faile fell down the stairs of the Winespring Inn! But hey, this is WoT, where communication is terrible!

 

I can understand Min's silence after all she must have realized that it is Elayne's right to tell him as she knew about it through her viewing. I don't remember but does Perrin know that Rand does not know about Elayne's pregnancy?

[driedraspberry]

My my, but the list of people wanting to kill Rand with their own hands just grows longer and longer. Whoever manages the feat, are we then looking at a free-for-all between Demandred, Cyndane, Fain and Gawyn?

 

Is there an actual legitimate chance of Gawyn killing Rand? I admit, I'm still quite new to the world of the Wheel of Time (being only half way through my first re-read), but wasn't Gawyn's reason for wanting to kill Rand because he we was under the impression that Rand killed Morgase? I know he still has the ter'angreals from the Bloodknives and no doubt something funky will go down, but I guess I just assumed that his business with Rand would be done since he now knows that his mom is alive.

 

Exactly. Gawyn had sworn off of killing Rand even before he found out that Morgase wasn't dead. New that he's seen her alive, the only possible scenario which sees him going after Rand is if Rand's conflict with Egwene escalates to a ridiculous level, and he goes after Rand as Egwene's Warder. He has no personal reason left.

 

After all that time Gawyn swearing to kill Rand/see him die I'd be a bit let down if he doesn't purposely play a role in Rand's death. Or at least an attempt on his life. Just please no assisted suicide, eww. As for his reasons, well he jumped to assumptions rather quickly the first time, readily believing the worst of Rand and set on killing him. I suspect he doesn't need very much to sway him. What with the conflict between Rand and Eggy I can see him deciding Rand needs to die at his hand again. It's not Gawyn thinks things out and considers the fate of the world seriously or anything...

[Maleshub]

I can understand Min's silence after all she must have realized that it is Elayne's right to tell him as she knew about it through her viewing. I don't remember but does Perrin know that Rand does not know about Elayne's pregnancy?

 

I don't think he does. What he might know is that Elayne wants to keep the identity of the father a secret to protect the children. And considering the fact that no less than half a dozen women (Min, Aviendha, Egwene, Birgitte, Nynaeve, Morgase, and maybe a few Wise Ones) know the father's identity, it seems silly that the father himself doesn't know.

[Maleshub]

And I look forward to seeing how she plans to discover Rand's plans.

That's the weird part. Rand woke up later that night because of his nightmare (or fantasy, I guess, seeing as how it turned out) and went talking with Perrin. If Aviendha already met him, then beside it being highly distasteful (dreaming of another woman the very night you reunite with your girlfriend...), we won't get to see any of that. Unless the timeline's really jumbled up even in AMoL. But if she didn't, I'm not sure she's got any time left.

 

csarmi already pointed out that Aviendha's timeline is messed up. She exited the columns at least or approximately two weeks before Merrilor. She needed time to think, a couple of days in the Waste; then she should have returned to Bander Eban or wherever the Aiel were camped in Arad Doman. She would have learned that the Aiel left to Tear and would have Traveled there. She didn't need to use her bond to Rand to locate him; and she should not have been surprised by the Aiel gathered in Merrilor. At least that's how I understood and read her PoV's before the prologue.

 

Edit: sorry for the double post.

[herid]

Isam thinks while watching Moridin:

 

The Samma N’Sei had thought Moridin one of the Talentless until he demonstrated differently. The constraints that held them did not hold him.

What constraints could he mean here?

[MountaineerWV]

Save her country, of course. If the danger of the BT becomes well known, that's one more reason for her to go back. Towards that end, I think its significant that the Palace is still okay, as of the Prologue. Add that to Mat's comments about how very well suited the Palace is to resisting invasion (even should the outer and inner walls fail), almost a bunker, and I think there's a good chance a substantial portion of Elayne's army will come sweeping out and push back the Trollocs, only to meet up with the battle at the Black Tower.

 

I can see most of that happening, but why would Elayne's army go to the BT? That battle will be fought purely with the One Power, there are no regular soldiers there. Sending her armies in there would be suicide. There's always the Kin, but Androl made it clear that the Ashaman must deal with themselves, either by bringing back the Ashaman outside the BT, or by uniting those inside the BT against Taim.

 

Or she could land there, push back the Trollocs, then an even bigger force could come to trap her in the Palace (with the range of the Dreamspike extended perhaps?). Lots of possibilities, but she's certainly not going to the Tower. Why should she? The Tower's army is plenty big (200,000+ well trained soldeirs). They can handle the Seanchan.

 

It seems to me that the Seanchan significantly outnumber the WT. They lost 300,000 men against Ituralde, and Turan claimed that was but a breeze compared to the storm he had raised. As for channellers, Egwene has maybe 600 full Aes Sedai at her command. I imagine the Seanchan can go way beyond that number with damane. Now the Aes Sedai have plenty novices they can use as power sources for cirles, but this battle, if it happens, won't be like the raid. It won't take place in the WT, with walls for the novices to hide behind, while the Aes Sedai do the weaving. Basically the novices will be in far greater danger in this battle. And while the WT has the advantage of of circles, those also have a downside: they limit the number of channellers weaving. Not only that but the damane are quite simply better at fighting than the majority of Aes Sedai. All things told, I just don't see how the WT can win this on it's own. I'm sure it'll put up a good fight, especially with Bryne and Egwene leading them, but ultimately the Seanchan armies are just too overwhelming.

 

I think Turan was either bluffing or he means that the Seanchan can raise an even larger army from the Seanchan mainland. We see from Elayne's POV that Andor, the single most powerful country in Randland, can raise 100K. Altara, Amadicia, and Tarabon are not in the same league as Andor. Before the Dragon sworn battles, civil wars, and various other militias recruiting (such as Egwene and Mat) each of those three countries could have raised perhaps 70K soldiers.

 

While I don't remember the exact count that was lost Ituralde, we will assume it was 300k. How many has Rand killed? How many has Mat killed? I'd estimate in the range of 500K and heavily weighted in Seanchan mainlanders.

 

In our modern world, the only country in the world that can field those types of numbers are the US - and that's only because of our freakin unbelievable logistical operations.

 

They may have superiority in the number of damane, but they are not able to truly work independently. There will always be a delay due to the link of the a'dam.

 

The Seanchan have been burning their military assets at both ends of the candle. They are still powerful, but will not be receiving any aid from the Seanchan mainland. At this time, I don't think they are any more powerful than the WT in terms of soldiers and channellers.

[David Selig]

I think Turan was either bluffing or he means that the Seanchan can raise an even larger army from the Seanchan mainland. We see from Elayne's POV that Andor, the single most powerful country in Randland, can raise 100K.

Actually Andor can raise 200K.

 

Rand goes to meet Perrin in the first chapter. Why does Perrin not congratulate Rand on becoming a father immediately. Atleast that is what a normal friend would do. Instead he starts talking about people from their village? WTF

Because he's not sure Rand is the father of Elayne's children. All Perrin has are some rumors he heard in Caemlyn and the fact that he saw them make out ages ago in Tear. Except if Mat or Thom during their night out drinking in Caemlyn, but since this is WoT and we didn't see it "onscreen", there's a 99% chance it didn't happen.

[Sid]

Isam thinks while watching Moridin:

 

The Samma N’Sei had thought Moridin one of the Talentless until he demonstrated differently. The constraints that held them did not hold him.

What constraints could he mean here?

I was also wondering that.

 

"Constraints" made me immediately think of a binder/oath rod, though there's no supporting evidence of that. They're never described as having faces you can't put an age to, and it doesn't even really make sense, though since they didn't know who Moridin was and oaths don't work that way. There certainly isn't anything against killing people in the town either or channeling there, by Isam's fear of them.

 

Something kept at least twelve channelers from harming him, and he was able to kill them quite easily.

[The Fisher King]

Sid,herid ... I caught that too. Odd. The Forsaken don't have many "constraints" and Moridin less than most. Any chance the term "constraint" somehow refers to the Chosen's tie to the Dark One?

 

 

Fish

[Maleshub]

While I don't remember the exact count that was lost Ituralde, we will assume it was 300k. How many has Rand killed? How many has Mat killed? I'd estimate in the range of 500K and heavily weighted in Seanchan mainlanders.

 

Ituralde defeated an army of 300K and a couple hundred damane; but he didn't kill the 300K troops. The army broke and fled in many directions; and Ituralde was not able to give chase. Considering that Ituralde didn't have any channelers, I would assume the Seanchan lost half their army to death and injury. That leaves 150K Seanchan troops that are still alive and will be available for the next commander to lead (which is already happening since Rand had to rescue Ituralde from the Stedding with a Seanchan army approaching).

[herid]

Isam thinks while watching Moridin:

 

The Samma N’Sei had thought Moridin one of the Talentless until he demonstrated differently. The constraints that held them did not hold him.

What constraints could he mean here?

I was also wondering that.

 

"Constraints" made me immediately think of a binder/oath rod, though there's no supporting evidence of that. They're never described as having faces you can't put an age to, and it doesn't even really make sense, though since they didn't know who Moridin was and oaths don't work that way. There certainly isn't anything against killing people in the town either or channeling there, by Isam's fear of them.

 

Something kept at least twelve channelers from harming him, and he was able to kill them quite easily.

Hmm, I admit didn't think of the oath rod. I thought it might be something along the lines of being marked in the way SH marked Alviarin - we don't really know the full extent of what such mark implies. also, the Black Ajah initiation seems to imply more than the use of the oath rod (since Verin was not sure that the oath rod would let her get free). I also thought it might have something to do with Moridin being able to channel TP but I it's hard to see how that would make a difference or how a nonchanneler such as Isam would be able to judge that.

[MountaineerWV]

I think Turan was either bluffing or he means that the Seanchan can raise an even larger army from the Seanchan mainland. We see from Elayne's POV that Andor, the single most powerful country in Randland, can raise 100K.

Actually Andor can raise 200K.

 

Whoops, my mistake. So bump up the three nations under Seanchan rule to ~120K to include anyone that can hold a pitch fork, but only prior to the Dragon Reborn upheaval effect. Less than 90K each max.

 

While I don't remember the exact count that was lost Ituralde, we will assume it was 300k. How many has Rand killed? How many has Mat killed? I'd estimate in the range of 500K and heavily weighted in Seanchan mainlanders.

 

Ituralde defeated an army of 300K and a couple hundred damane; but he didn't kill the 300K troops. The army broke and fled in many directions; and Ituralde was not able to give chase. Considering that Ituralde didn't have any channelers, I would assume the Seanchan lost half their army to death and injury. That leaves 150K Seanchan troops that are still alive and will be available for the next commander to lead (which is already happening since Rand had to rescue Ituralde from the Stedding with a Seanchan army approaching).

 

It's difficult to speculate how many were lost. You are correct it probably wasn't the entire army, but an army in chaotic retreat with no supplies in a foreign and hostile land leaves a lot of dead.

 

I still maintain that the Seanchan Army can't field much more than the White Tower of trained soldiers without drawing reserves from the mainland...which is not going to happen at the current time. Still a very significant force.

[Sid]

I never thought of the "Mark of the Chosen" either, but as I think on it that seems to only affect shadowspawn to varying degrees. People cannot seem to see it on the Forsaken when they speak with them. (Liandrin with Moghedien, Moghedien with Moridin, etc.)

 

I'm really drawing a blank on what kind of constraints could explain what happened and still be feasible.

[herid]

I never thought of the "Mark of the Chosen" either, but as I think on it that seems to only affect shadowspawn to varying degrees. People cannot seem to see it on the Forsaken when they speak with them. (Liandrin with Moghedien, Moghedien with Moridin, etc.)

 

I'm really drawing a blank on what kind of constraints could explain what happened and still be feasible.

what I meant was not that Moridin's mark of the Chosen affects them but rather that perhaps the male channelers when they swear to the shadow have some kind of mark placed of them that restricts them in some fashion.

[Neophyte]

I never thought of the "Mark of the Chosen" either, but as I think on it that seems to only affect shadowspawn to varying degrees. People cannot seem to see it on the Forsaken when they speak with them. (Liandrin with Moghedien, Moghedien with Moridin, etc.)

 

I'm really drawing a blank on what kind of constraints could explain what happened and still be feasible.

 

Perhaps a kind of Compulsion that prevents the Samma N'Sei from getting too rowdy and blowing up the Town - a limit on how much of the Power they can use within the Town limits or something like that.

[Terez]

After all that time Gawyn swearing to kill Rand/see him die I'd be a bit let down if he doesn't purposely play a role in Rand's death. Or at least an attempt on his life. Just please no assisted suicide, eww. As for his reasons, well he jumped to assumptions rather quickly the first time, readily believing the worst of Rand and set on killing him. I suspect he doesn't need very much to sway him. What with the conflict between Rand and Eggy I can see him deciding Rand needs to die at his hand again. It's not Gawyn thinks things out and considers the fate of the world seriously or anything...

 

Yeah, he knows his mother is alive now but he's already been softened for the task. The fact that he chose to believe Rand was guilty when everyone he should have been listening to was denying it...that says something about him. I don't know that he will necessarily do it in a spiteful way when the time comes; I think the most likely scenario is a Suroth/Alwhin/Liandrin type situation, or 'will no one ride me of this tiresome priest?' type situation. I think it has to involve Egwene somehow because she is all tied up on the foreshadowing too. But the quote in my sig suggests that Gawyn will betray her, which points to the aforementioned scenario where Gawyn acts for Egwene, but not on her orders.