CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[Suttree]

Mat spent the entire night before his escape from Ebou Dar awake going through contingencies. And when something unexpected happened, he adapted intelligently.

 

If only Elayne had the memories of all the great Queens in Andor's history at her disposal...

 

Yoniy0 has the right of it. We have seen the pressure she feels in doing right by her country and we saw her methodically go about winning the votes to gain Andor while ruling/protecting the country during civil war. This just doesn't fit.

[Maleshub]

Mat spent the entire night before his escape from Ebou Dar awake going through contingencies. And when something unexpected happened, he adapted intelligently.

 

I can't help but note with a little schadenfreude (albeit mostly schaden) that after spending the last several books putting the ostensible interests of Andor ahead of those of the world, Elayne's actions have led to the razing of Andor's greatest city. Guess what, you by definition fail as a head of state. Sorry.

 

If Elayne goes in premature labor, we now know the reason!

 

Mat spent the entire night before his escape from Ebou Dar awake going through contingencies. And when something unexpected happened, he adapted intelligently.

 

If only Elayne had the memories of all the great Queens in Andor's history at her disposal...

 

Yoniy0 has the right of it. We have seen the pressure she feels in doing right by her country and we saw her methodically go about winning the votes to gain Andor while ruling/protecting the country during civil war. This just doesn't fit.

 

Mat's memories are good for battle. His escape from Ebou Dar was more planning than memories. And Elayne had "royal" training as well as WT training. She never lacked in that department.

[KakitaOCU]

Just a couple of points regarding precautions on the attack.

 

First, who's to say Rand didn't put the same type of wards on the Caemlyn gate as the others? The wards were set to be slow poison, the shadowspawn would have time to leave the city and move away before dying. If they came zering out of the gate in waves they'd have time to do a LOT of damage before they died. Who knows, maybe after Talmane's black out, right as the troops are trying to evacuate the city, the trolloc army falls dead. Kind of a mini version of War of the Worlds. :)

 

As for anticipating and thinking through various realities of the power. I don't think we're really being fair here. I've come up with all kinds of bizzare stuff to do with the power. But then, I've actually had the ability to kick back and think about it while reading or otherwise not being occupied. They didn't have that kind of time. Nor the break of years between books we do.

[fionwe1987]

That's a fair point - though I've said that while some of Elayne's actions are stupid, she isn't stupid; she just doesn't plan for the possibility that things can go wrong. That tendency is evident even in the raid on Full Moon Street, which was written by RJ.

Nope. As you yourself conceded, I think, it was more unexpected bad luck than lack of preparation there. Her plan was good. She noted the chance for one of her AS to be Black, and tackled it. She hid their abilities, she inverted webs, and had everything wrapped up. She would even have been in a position to handle the other sisters, except they come up there without touching the OP, and had a ter'angreal that could be activated without to OP to hit your enemies from a distance. No contingency plan she could have come up with: more soldiers, more channelers... none of them would have helped against that ter'angreal.

 

But I would have expected her (indeed, I did expect her) to learn and get better at dealing with contingencies, and to be more aware of the risks to those around her. She seemed fairly chastened and a bit humbled when Birgitte rescued her in KoD ch 33. She seemed aware that Min's prophecy was not an assurance that everything would just be OK.

 

Instead, once Sanderson takes the reins, she goes in the other direction. She's even mentally using Min's vision as justification for her actions again in ToM ch 23. Then, by ToM ch 33 she's telling Gawyn:

 

"We can't afford to be shortsighted right now." She began to row them back despite his protest.

"This," he said, "coming from the woman who personally raided the Black Ajah?"

Elayne blushed. He could tell that she wished he'd never found out about that event. "It was needed. And besides, I did say 'we.' You and I, we have this trouble."

That's the point we're making. She has regressed, not grown, since KoD. Same thing happened with Perrin. He came to terms with his wolf nature, and his leadership. Then he regressed from that again. Same with Egwene. In tGS, she shares and understanding with what Rand went through. In ToM that is conveniently forgotten in their meeting. Then it comes back when she's talking with Nynaeve. Then it goes away again.

 

I could keep going on, but while there have been threads and threads about the prose and plotting, its worth remembering that characterization has suffered in these last books too, and given that this comes when these characters come into their own, and start interacting again, it leads to the kind of confusion we're seeing regarding Elayne's behavior.

Elayne seems to know that its a problem. It's almost like Sanderson made her learn the same lesson again - why, I don't know - and then ignore it, again. It's just strange. "Shortsighted" is the perfect word to describe her lack of preparations in Caemlyn.

Exactly. It makes no sense, and there is no consistency. The character has taken a backseat to the demands of the plot. The characters might as well be pieces of furniture reciting lines, for all the consistency they show.

[XXX]

So Elayne's capital is toast, will she try to goo back and save her country or go to the WT to help out during the Seachan attack?

[Suttree]

First, who's to say Rand didn't put the same type of wards on the Caemlyn gate as the others? The wards were set to be slow poison, the shadowspawn would have time to leave the city and move away before dying. If they came zering out of the gate in waves they'd have time to do a LOT of damage before they died. Who knows, maybe after Talmane's black out, right as the troops are trying to evacuate the city, the trolloc army falls dead. Kind of a mini version of War of the Worlds. :)

 

Because Rand said he "sealed" it whereas shadar logoth was a "vicious type of trap".

 

Mat's memories are good for battle. His escape from Ebou Dar was more planning than memories. And Elayne had "royal" training as well as WT training. She never lacked in that department.

 

Those adventurers and generals would be very adept at much more when it comes to planning besides battle. The bolded is once again why this scene doesn't seem to have been handled well.

[yoniy0]

And I look forward to seeing how she plans to discover Rand's plans.

That's the weird part. Rand woke up later that night because of his nightmare (or fantasy, I guess, seeing as how it turned out) and went talking with Perrin. If Aviendha already met him, then beside it being highly distasteful (dreaming of another woman the very night you reunite with your girlfriend...), we won't get to see any of that. Unless the timeline's really jumbled up even in AMoL. But if she didn't, I'm not sure she's got any time left.

[KakitaOCU]

Valid point, Suttree. Begs the question, did we ever get an explanation at to what his "Sealing" meant? DId he remove the leaves the way Loial did in TR? If so I do believe Moraine had mentioned being able to cut through a WayGate to open it, so I suppose there's that.

[Suttree]

Valid point, Suttree. Begs the question, did we ever get an explanation at to what his "Sealing" meant? DId he remove the leaves the way Loial did in TR? If so I do believe Moraine had mentioned being able to cut through a WayGate to open it, so I suppose there's that.

 

That is a really good question. I would like to know and also love to hear Verin's side of how she found out to tell Mat.

[fionwe1987]

So Elayne's capital is toast, will she try to goo back and save her country or go to the WT to help out during the Seachan attack?

Save her country, of course. If the danger of the BT becomes well known, that's one more reason for her to go back. Towards that end, I think its significant that the Palace is still okay, as of the Prologue. Add that to Mat's comments about how very well suited the Palace is to resisting invasion (even should the outer and inner walls fail), almost a bunker, and I think there's a good chance a substantial portion of Elayne's army will come sweeping out and push back the Trollocs, only to meet up with the battle at the Black Tower.

 

Or she could land there, push back the Trollocs, then an even bigger force could come to trap her in the Palace (with the range of the Dreamspike extended perhaps?). Lots of possibilities, but she's certainly not going to the Tower. Why should she? The Tower's army is plenty big (200,000+ well trained soldeirs). They can handle the Seanchan.

[yoniy0]

Probably the same way the Blacks in Elayne's basement found out. Although that's weird, unless she lied to Mat about what she's been doing before she met him.

[MountaineerWV]

My thoughts on the Town... I argued against a town in the Blight and I was obviously wrong. The logistics of it still pisses me off. How can a town be supported in the Blight? Where are all of these prisoners coming from?

 

We know that prisoners are needed to make Fade blades and that the blades do not last forever. If there are 10k Fades, then we need at LEAST 10k prisoners initially, along with some amount for maintenance. And that's assuming that no Fade ever dies and the blade is lost. Additionally, we need enough prisoners to build a town and farm the Blight.

 

The Blight and the town are the most hostile environments known to man. The red veiled Aiel kill on a whim, Trollocs need something to eat, the Blight has an untold number of plants and animals that are fatal, the slave masters drive the slaves to death, and what children there are usually don't make it to adulthood. Even if no women were used to make the blades (false, b/c we saw it happen), no women were worked to death, none were killed by the red veiled Aiel, AND ONLY used as breeding stock....how many actually make it through child birth?

 

Trollocs rarely intrude further than the northern border of the Borderlands, Trolloc raids further south would cause the armies of southern nations to rush north. When a Trolloc raid does occur, far more people die fighting than are captured. Of those that are captured, how many survive the forced march through the Blight, where a leaf can kill and Trollocs are hungry? The Borderlands do not have a population to support the wholesale killing and capturing of the thousands and thousands of people!

 

Anyway, enough of my bitching because just going with the flow, it is pretty cool that such an evil deranged place exists. Not quite sure how the rude little stick village Perrin found is a foreshadowing of the town. Maybe it was a piece from the outskirts of the town. Does this also mean that all the pieces of Blight found in Randland are from the Shayul Ghul area?

[Suttree]

Anyway, enough of my bitching because just going with the flow, it is pretty cool that such an evil deranged place exists. Not quite sure how the rude little stick village Perrin found is a foreshadowing of the town. Maybe it was a piece from the outskirts of the town. Does this also mean that all the pieces of Blight found in Randland are from the Shayul Ghul area?

 

I always took that to be from Australia errr Land of the Mad Men.

[XXX]

So Elayne's capital is toast, will she try to goo back and save her country or go to the WT to help out during the Seachan attack?

Save her country, of course. If the danger of the BT becomes well known, that's one more reason for her to go back. Towards that end, I think its significant that the Palace is still okay, as of the Prologue. Add that to Mat's comments about how very well suited the Palace is to resisting invasion (even should the outer and inner walls fail), almost a bunker, and I think there's a good chance a substantial portion of Elayne's army will come sweeping out and push back the Trollocs, only to meet up with the battle at the Black Tower.

 

Or she could land there, push back the Trollocs, then an even bigger force could come to trap her in the Palace (with the range of the Dreamspike extended perhaps?). Lots of possibilities, but she's certainly not going to the Tower. Why should she? The Tower's army is plenty big (200,000+ well trained soldeirs). They can handle the Seanchan.

 

Considering that they have abandoned the palace not sure how it will be ok!!

 

Seachan can throw more nos at the tower than what the WT can field on it's own.

[MountaineerWV]

Anyway, enough of my bitching because just going with the flow, it is pretty cool that such an evil deranged place exists. Not quite sure how the rude little stick village Perrin found is a foreshadowing of the town. Maybe it was a piece from the outskirts of the town. Does this also mean that all the pieces of Blight found in Randland are from the Shayul Ghul area?

 

I always took that to be from Australia errr Land of the Mad Men.

 

Hmmm, interesting. I'll have to go back and read that section again. That would be cool though.

[Stitched up by a postie]

Have we seen anything similar to the phrase "By grace and banners fallen?" It just seems very awkward to me. In the text, if I recall*, Talmanes says this in response to his realization that the LB is starting.

 

It's an interesting sentiment. I would think, looking at the phrase itself, that it would be more properly applied to the end of a war, ie "by the grace of the Creator and the banners of the men who fell, we have prevailed over the Dark One." Declaring the start of the last battle of a very long war to be because of grace ("by") is counter-intuitive. Except, I suppose, if you are a very weary commander, and you just want it to be over with. That's not the feel I got from Talmanes, though, even though he is tired, a commander, etc. It seemed more like someone repeating a cultural phrase they'd heard somewhere, without truly thinking through what it implies.

 

It's like someone who doesn't have much knowledge of the American South using "bless his heart."

 

*And I may not recall. I'm supposed to be working, not lurking on message boards.

 

It seemed a really strange turn of phrase to me, too.

 

I haven't read the prologue yet (not yet legally available where I am), but I'm enjoying the discussion. Caemlyn's fall sounds a good beginning to AMoL. I've been hoping for a pretty high level of death and destruction - not for their own sake but as a fitting backdrop to Rand's struggle with the Dark One and the end of the Age.

 

I'm also hoping AMoL will reveal good explanations for things that currently seem due to character stupidity, but who knows?

 

[TootThatHorn]

My thoughts on the Town... I argued against a town in the Blight and I was obviously wrong. The logistics of it still pisses me off. How can a town be supported in the Blight? Where are all of these prisoners coming from?

 

We know that prisoners are needed to make Fade blades and that the blades do not last forever. If there are 10k Fades, then we need at LEAST 10k prisoners initially, along with some amount for maintenance. And that's assuming that no Fade ever dies and the blade is lost. Additionally, we need enough prisoners to build a town and farm the Blight.

 

The Blight and the town are the most hostile environments known to man. The red veiled Aiel kill on a whim, Trollocs need something to eat, the Blight has an untold number of plants and animals that are fatal, the slave masters drive the slaves to death, and what children there are usually don't make it to adulthood. Even if no women were used to make the blades (false, b/c we saw it happen), no women were worked to death, none were killed by the red veiled Aiel, AND ONLY used as breeding stock....how many actually make it through child birth?

 

Trollocs rarely intrude further than the northern border of the Borderlands, Trolloc raids further south would cause the armies of southern nations to rush north. When a Trolloc raid does occur, far more people die fighting than are captured. Of those that are captured, how many survive the forced march through the Blight, where a leaf can kill and Trollocs are hungry? The Borderlands do not have a population to support the wholesale killing and capturing of the thousands and thousands of people!

 

Anyway, enough of my bitching because just going with the flow, it is pretty cool that such an evil deranged place exists. Not quite sure how the rude little stick village Perrin found is a foreshadowing of the town. Maybe it was a piece from the outskirts of the town. Does this also mean that all the pieces of Blight found in Randland are from the Shayul Ghul area?

 

As far as the myrddraal blades, unfortunately that could be easily explained in a BWB type of way. The town has always existed. Ishy taught someone in the Town to make a gateway. They farmed the Isle or Shara for bodies. Blade problem solved. Not that I like it but it's enough of one idea to solve that problem.

[Cybertrolloc]

Haven't read the prologue yet (and probably won't for yonks), so just based on what's been posted in this thread I don't entirely regret reading...

 

Granted our main characters all have to learn their lessons over and over again and it can get annoying. It's certainly not new.

 

Two pieces of Elayne info not brought up yet:

- She was in the Stone of Tear in the beginning of tSR. I'll assume you all remember what happened there ;)

- What's her OP schtick again? What was in the Kin ter'angreal stash again? (Stock of an AoL cell phone kiosk.)

 

I was going to make a list of top ten most obvious ways Elayne could keep up on info in Caemlyn list, but it's late. I can think of a few from the ter'angreal we've seen used (granted using the ter'angreal dildo or whip on a warder probably wouldn't be kosher for WoT and Elayne's sensibilities and the only one she has access to is Birgitte iirc), at least they're not all gathering dust or waiting for a DF maid to grab them, yay Ny.

 

One of the bigger problems the light-side faces is information security (well besides the being very out matched in almost every way except ta'veran of course). So I can find it understandable to keep some info close, but it's easy to take it too far to (i.e. Rand since forever). I don't think it's very applicable to the Elayne Andor/Carhien situation directly, just something to consider.

[csarmi]

I just don't get it how could anyone think the waygate was safe in the 1st place. They are supposed to know that the entry can be blasted by the power (happened on-screen).

[MasterAblar]

Save her country, of course. If the danger of the BT becomes well known, that's one more reason for her to go back. Towards that end, I think its significant that the Palace is still okay, as of the Prologue. Add that to Mat's comments about how very well suited the Palace is to resisting invasion (even should the outer and inner walls fail), almost a bunker, and I think there's a good chance a substantial portion of Elayne's army will come sweeping out and push back the Trollocs, only to meet up with the battle at the Black Tower.

 

I can see most of that happening, but why would Elayne's army go to the BT? That battle will be fought purely with the One Power, there are no regular soldiers there. Sending her armies in there would be suicide. There's always the Kin, but Androl made it clear that the Ashaman must deal with themselves, either by bringing back the Ashaman outside the BT, or by uniting those inside the BT against Taim.

 

Or she could land there, push back the Trollocs, then an even bigger force could come to trap her in the Palace (with the range of the Dreamspike extended perhaps?). Lots of possibilities, but she's certainly not going to the Tower. Why should she? The Tower's army is plenty big (200,000+ well trained soldeirs). They can handle the Seanchan.

 

It seems to me that the Seanchan significantly outnumber the WT. They lost 300,000 men against Ituralde, and Turan claimed that was but a breeze compared to the storm he had raised. As for channellers, Egwene has maybe 600 full Aes Sedai at her command. I imagine the Seanchan can go way beyond that number with damane. Now the Aes Sedai have plenty novices they can use as power sources for cirles, but this battle, if it happens, won't be like the raid. It won't take place in the WT, with walls for the novices to hide behind, while the Aes Sedai do the weaving. Basically the novices will be in far greater danger in this battle. And while the WT has the advantage of of circles, those also have a downside: they limit the number of channellers weaving. Not only that but the damane are quite simply better at fighting than the majority of Aes Sedai. All things told, I just don't see how the WT can win this on it's own. I'm sure it'll put up a good fight, especially with Bryne and Egwene leading them, but ultimately the Seanchan armies are just too overwhelming.

[Guest Eric Weiss]

Just something I've not seen posted here regarding the potential for a character of the shadow - Lanfear, Demandred, Ish - the entire title "A Memory of Light" seems to allude to that notion quite well, don't you think?

 

We've had a great deal of foreshadowing that bringing about the possibility of a turncoat. The complexity of the story telling also seems to imply that characters of the shadow would be more psychologically complex than simple blind minions following orders.

 

The nature of the three characters themselves implies this:

 

Lanfear went to the Shadow for because she was scorned

 

Damandred did it for envy

 

Ishmael did it for philosophical logic

 

Each one of these three may have ample cause, this close to the end of days, to question their positions.

 

Personally, I'd be disappointed if there was not a 25th hour shadow turncoat as it would be a sweet plot twist supported by character development history and situational opportunity.

 

My guess - I believe 2 will engage in such a betrayal. I believe Demandred will do something with his Seanchan forces (he clearly runs Seandar) in order to consolidate power against shadow forces. This fits the "Tuan assassination" foreshadow from Avienda's Rhuidean visit. It also fits Demandred's desire to supplant Lews Therin as his primary motivation. A dead Rand leaves a leadership void for the light (nobody knows who Demandred is, so easy to rise to prominance sans Rand.)

 

Lanfear is almost assuredly a last second betrayer around the Callendor situation upcoming. She will throw a monkey wrench I to that situation in some manner - there is no way she is being tortured to this extent simply to play her role for the shadow. Her very character is driven by spite - Moridin's treatment will not go unpunished.

 

Finally, I think it fairly obvious that Fain will be sealed within the Bore along with the Dark One. I've a feeling that the "body-switch" scenario with Moridin may indeed be Fain's way of gettIng revenge on both Rand and the DO at once - Fain knocks off Moridin-as-Rand in the Pit, then gets sealed in battle eternal with the DO.

 

My twist on this is speculative, but intriguing. I believe Moridin will be a willing participant in this scenario. As the most intelligent/wise of all characters, Moridin has been contemplating all things. I could see him finally discovering a possible scenario where the Light could potentially be given a shot at absolute victory - remember, it was the inevitable victory of the shadow that made him turn coat originally.

 

If Moridin realizes that Mashadar's evil combined with DO would neutralize each other - ala Rand's side wound and cleansing of the taint - he may just be nihilistic enough to make that type of play using Fain as his vehicle. He likely knows that Rand must seal the Bore in TAR, so Rand's mortal death is insubstantial next to his legendary soul eternal.

 

Basically, I just think its juicy to imagine the Shadow's 3 top guns all helping to contribute to the undoing of the DO while staying consistent with their character flaws and ideology. How ironic would that be? None of them would have to be helping Rand, their self-serving agendas just happen to align with what the Light needs to succeed.

[daavorian]

I doubt all 3 will turn. Personally, I suspect Moridin will begin to turn, at which point Demandred will kick him to the curb and take control, a role he may well have been being groomed for since the meeting in the Pit. Honestly Demandred is clearly the big bad with the most forces loyal to him, he's the only one who hasn't royally screwed up (like, say, being one of the first forsaken to die...) and I think Moridin is being set up to fall. Moridin is also mentally linked to Rand, who literally just had an epiphany about why one shouldn't be nihilistic. He is the Dark One's chosen champion, spun out to counter LTT. I've thought for a while that Lanfear might turn, but I just don't know anymore (although if Moridin still had her cour'souvra that wouldn't much matter)

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have a vague feeling Moridin will be ousted (not killed, just abandoned).

 

Demandred's compliance with Moridin is already thin, he states it straight up pretty much. He is only helping so he can kill Rand.

 

Moghedien hates Moridin for obvious reasons, and is made even clearer in the Prologue. Interestingly, she is sent with Demandred (see above)

 

Cyndane has the most reason to hate Moridin, if she somehow gets hold of her mindtrap, she will as soon kill him than anyone from the Light.

 

Graendal also has been punished and feels no loyalty to Moridin.

 

Add one of them figuring out what Moridin's plans are (the total destruction of the Pattern.) they will not likely stay loyal. Not all would betray the DO, but Moridin they would, if the opportunity presented itself.

 

Demandred and Lanfear are the only ones I see betraying the Shadow though. Demandred wouldn't care, he just wants Rand dead, and if the Shadow didn't give him that opportunity, he would find it himself. Lanfear because of what we have seen. Likely a trap, but at least there is some justification for the thought.

[yoniy0]

My my, but the list of people wanting to kill Rand with their own hands just grows longer and longer. Whoever manages the feat, are we then looking at a free-for-all between Demandred, Cyndane, Fain and Gawyn?

[Barid Bel Medar]

My my, but the list of people wanting to kill Rand with their own hands just grows longer and longer. Whoever manages the feat, are we then looking at a free-for-all between Demandred, Cyndane, Fain and Gawyn?

 

Heh, I can imagine that they all come to kill Rand, then they start arguing over who should get to kill him, turning into a brawl. Rand kinda shrugs and quietly slips away to seal the DO away while they fight.

 

They are still arguing years later and Rand has retired to a remote location (one that not even I can reveal ) shaking his head every few years at the absurdity of it all.