CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[Suttree]

 

Here's my problem with that.. if it was a prologue RJ written part, then Graendal makes no sense, as she didn't do anything yet to be punished.

 

There was a lot of the last three books which Jordan either outlined, or dictated the general plot of. I'm assuming Graendal's screwups (Aran'gar, Messana, etc.) were among them.

 

Actually we know now that these outlines are much less robust than previously thought. Brandon had to make far more decisions than most people think.

[Neophyte]

As I said before, there were guards outside Chesmal's cell, and Kinwomen too. How much more of a backup is necessary to interrogate one shielded prisoner when you're a really strong channeller yourself? There've been like 1000 much more risky and reckless plans in WoT so far with less contingencies and backup plans.

 

As for going to Cairhien, she had 1plenty of bodyguards and Kinwomen around. Again hardly reckless.

 

There were guards outside Chesmal's cell, but the guards didn't know that Elayne was in there, because she deliberately hid her entrance from them! She Traveled directly into the cells. How would the guards know to help, if she got in trouble?

 

Also, an increased guard presence (or at least, level of alert) is usual for interrogations - especially ones conducted by a sitting monarch. By avoiding the guards and not telling Birgitte, Elayne made that impossible.

 

Worst of all, Elayne didn't even bother to make use of the fruits of that insane interrogation, and prepare for the attack on Andor.

 

Finally, in Cairhien, if Birgitte hadn't stopped her from plopped her butt down on the throne (clearly against Elayne's wishes) then her guards and Kinswomen wouldn't have helped her one bit. She treated them like showpieces, not a security detail. Luckily for her, one them actually acted like a security detail.

[yoniy0]

I'm just saying, using Elayne's misdeeds in ToM to explain those of AMoL isn't logically sound. We should analyze Elayne and Selayne (or Belayne?) separately.

[David Selig]

As I said before, there were guards outside Chesmal's cell, and Kinwomen too. How much more of a backup is necessary to interrogate one shielded prisoner when you're a really strong channeller yourself? There've been like 1000 much more risky and reckless plans in WoT so far with less contingencies and backup plans.

 

As for going to Cairhien, she had 1plenty of bodyguards and Kinwomen around. Again hardly reckless.

 

There were guards outside Chesmal's cell, but the guards didn't know that Elayne was in there, because she deliberately hid her entrance from them! She Traveled directly into the cells. How would the guards know to help, if she got in trouble?

 

Also, an increased guard presence (or at least, level of alert) is usual for interrogations - especially ones conducted by a sitting monarch. By avoiding the guards and not telling Birgitte, Elayne made that impossible.

 

Worst of all, Elayne didn't even bother to make use of the fruits of that insane interrogation, and prepare for the attack on Andor.

 

Finally, in Cairhien, if Birgitte hadn't stopped her from plopped her butt down on the throne (clearly against Elayne's wishes) then her guards and Kinswomen wouldn't have helped her one bit. She treated them like showpieces, not a security detail. Luckily for her, one them actually acted like a security detail.

The Kinwomen and guards outside the cell were alerted.

 

As for Cairhien, even if that poisoned needle had penetrated Elayne's skin, it's no big deal with all the Kinwomen super healers with her and the ability to go to Nynaeve or Sumeko in a minute through Gateway. Whoever put it there was either dumb or his plan was for it to be discovered, not to kill Elayne, which had no chance of succeed.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Tower Law doesn't allow individual sisters to still anyone; they have to be put to trial first. Note that Moiraine didn't still Joiya either. Amico was an exception because Egwene stilled her in self-defense.

So? Elayne should either just have broken that law or brought those Black Sisters to Egwene's camp, because I'm certain tower law doesn't allow individual sisters to incarcerate another without bringing them before a higher authority either.

 

I have no idea why you would be certain about that since everything we know points to it not being true.

How about because it's common sense. One sister can't just take another sister prisoner without contacting a higher authority by which I mean either the Hall or the Amyrlin as soon as possible. Just like you can't just apprehend someone else no matter what sort of crime he or she commited without contacting the police as soon as possible. I don't remember whether she did tell Egwene, but if she didn't she most certainly was in violation of Tower Law as well. Not to mention rather stupid.

 

 

Same with her treatment of those captured black sisters. I get that she wants to interrogate them, but why doesn't she just still them? She'd seen with Amico how much losing the ability to channel breaks resistence. As long as they are able to channel they are a permanent threat which require special attention. Still them and they are just regular women. Well, Cadsuane is guilty of the same error, actually even worse when she doesn't still Semirhage.

 

Tower Law doesn't allow individual sisters to still anyone; they have to be put to trial first. Note that Moiraine didn't still Joiya either. Amico was an exception because Egwene stilled her in self-defense.

 

So? Elayne should either just have broken that law or brought those Black Sisters to Egwene's camp, because I'm certain tower law doesn't allow individual sisters to incarcerate another without bringing them before a higher authority either. At worst Elayne would have gotten a small penance, because there was no doubt of their guilt and because she could argue that since stilling became reversible it no longer could be considered a final punishment

 

Small penance? Really? It's repeated over and over how strict Tower Law is on such things. Elayne thought that even taking their rings away could get her in trouble. Even if stilling can be Healed now, it's still a huge deal for the Aes Sedai. And Egwene was a prisoner of Elaida back then.

 

BTW, Moiraine held Amico and Joya in Tear for a month, and it certainly didn't seem she or the Supergirls considered it against the Tower law.

 

Yes, small penance. If she couldn't hand over the black sisters to the rebels, she could easily argue that as the only Aes Sedai present she couldn't safely guard several black sisters. You can't tell me that the rebels would have seen the Kin as adequate jailors for black sisters. How would the Hall have punished her once those sisters confessed? Exile the Queen of Andor to a farm? Hardly. And what sort of message would publicly punishing Elayne severely for apprehending Black Sisters send? The BA are the greatest abomination to regular AS.

 

As for Amico and Joiya, do you honestly think Moiraine cared much about some insignificant violation of Tower Law? She was ready to face stilling herself for her actions if it came to it. Keeping several black sisters a bit longer before she could arrange their transport to Tar Valon was really nothing in comparison to what she had already done.

[Neophyte]

As I said before, there were guards outside Chesmal's cell, and Kinwomen too. How much more of a backup is necessary to interrogate one shielded prisoner when you're a really strong channeller yourself? There've been like 1000 much more risky and reckless plans in WoT so far with less contingencies and backup plans.

 

As for going to Cairhien, she had 1plenty of bodyguards and Kinwomen around. Again hardly reckless.

 

There were guards outside Chesmal's cell, but the guards didn't know that Elayne was in there, because she deliberately hid her entrance from them! She Traveled directly into the cells. How would the guards know to help, if she got in trouble?

 

Also, an increased guard presence (or at least, level of alert) is usual for interrogations - especially ones conducted by a sitting monarch. By avoiding the guards and not telling Birgitte, Elayne made that impossible.

 

Worst of all, Elayne didn't even bother to make use of the fruits of that insane interrogation, and prepare for the attack on Andor.

 

Finally, in Cairhien, if Birgitte hadn't stopped her from plopped her butt down on the throne (clearly against Elayne's wishes) then her guards and Kinswomen wouldn't have helped her one bit. She treated them like showpieces, not a security detail. Luckily for her, one them actually acted like a security detail.

The Kinwomen and guards outside the cell were alerted.

 

As for Cairhien, even if that poisoned needle had penetrated Elayne's skin, it's no big deal with all the Kinwomen super healers with her and the ability to go to Nynaeve or Sumeko in a minute through Gateway. Whoever put it there was either dumb or his plan was for it to be discovered, not to kill Elayne, which had no chance of succeed.

 

The Kinswomen and guards outside the cell were not really alerted. She tried out her illusion on the Guardswomen outside her bedroom, the told them "Turn out the lights and remain perfectly still. I will return shortly." She then Traveled directly from her rooms into the dungeon cells and confronted Chesmal directly. She did not tell the Guardswomen at her rooms what she was doing, and she didn't tell the Kinswomen maintaining the shield or the prison guards anything at all in person. She presumably sent them some orders, because she does think later that "the Kin were following [her] orders." But those orders (which we never see or hear) were "odd" by her own estimation, so I doubt they constituted any clear explanation of what was going on. Given what actually happened, they must have been something like "don't come in for the next little while, no matter what you hear." That is not informing them of what's going on - it is keeping them out of it.

 

That is not good planning. She's keeping secrets from the people who she should be working with, Birgitte first and foremost among them.

 

And I guess we're just going to have to disagree on Cairhien. Your explanation seems to be "well, if something bad happened, it could have gotten Healed, so no biggie." That is absurdly reckless - we don't know if all poisons are Healed the same way, and there are likely some that act too quickly to be Healed, at least without some permanent damage - but I can see why you agree with Elayne's plans now, at least. You're equally reckless.

[Terez]

Tower Law doesn't allow individual sisters to still anyone; they have to be put to trial first. Note that Moiraine didn't still Joiya either. Amico was an exception because Egwene stilled her in self-defense.

So? Elayne should either just have broken that law or brought those Black Sisters to Egwene's camp, because I'm certain tower law doesn't allow individual sisters to incarcerate another without bringing them before a higher authority either.

 

I have no idea why you would be certain about that since everything we know points to it not being true.

How about because it's common sense.

 

It isn't, actually. You need some kind of police force, and you need any Aes Sedai to be able to act in that capacity or you have no cops on the beat. It's important. But whether or not you think it's common sense, it's what's in the books. Your opinion doesn't matter.

[David Selig]

It's specifically mentioned that the guards and the Kinwomen in the cell were warned. "If I would interrogate the prisoner masked as a Forsaken, so don't intervene if you hear strange sounds, unless I spefically call for help" is definitely an odd order, and it's most likely the one she gave to the guards outside.

 

As for Cairhien, this is not what I am saying. Point is Elayne haaad plenty of bodyguards. She thoght Birgitte was overprotective when she searched the throne, sure, and why no? It was a stupid idea by whoever pu it there and a big neglect by her Carhien allies. But it's not like she ordered Birgitte to stop.

[Manscher]

Yes, she knew of the attack on Caemlyn, which is why she increased the scouts in the borders of Andor, because that is where everybody thought of them to come from. That the attack came from the Waygate totally blindsided them.

 

As for only leaving 4 kin behind, Judging from the Bond with Rand, he's about to go talk with the Borderlanders just as Elayne goes to Cairhien, which makes it the day before the FoM meeting, in other words, she will be gone for 2, maximum 3 days. So the whole idea of only leaving 4 kins behind for a couple of days, with them being ordered to report in regularly, isn't such a foolish decision as some of you make it sound. Because as previously stated, I doubt anybody expected the Shadow to strike right in the middle of Caemlyn on the exact same day with such a large force.

[Neophyte]

It's specifically mentioned that the guards and the Kinwomen in the cell were warned. "If I would interrogate the prisoner masked as a Forsaken, so don't intervene if you hear strange sounds, unless I spefically call for help" is definitely an odd order, and it's most likely the one she gave to the guards outside.

 

Well, the text of her order is never given, so my version is at least as likely as yours. In fact, given that we do have what she said to the guards in her room (that actual quote for which I provided) it seems unlikely that her orders were as explicit as you maintain. But there's no way to prove that, so ... -shrug-

 

 

As for Cairhien, this is not what I am saying. Point is Elayne haaad plenty of bodyguards. She thoght Birgitte was overprotective when she searched the throne, sure, and why no? It was a stupid idea by whoever pu it there and a big neglect by her Carhien allies. But it's not like she ordered Birgitte to stop.

 

I bolded the part of your quote that was important. She thought that Birgitte was overprotective - when Birgitte was right. So "why no?" Because there was poison there. With the right poison, it was an excellent idea, because whoever put it there judged Elayne's character perfectly - Elayne wouldn't anticipate something like that. If Birgitte had not done what Elayne clearly did not want her to do, Elayne would have been poisoned, and I'm not as blase about that as you (and Elayne) apparently are.

[78WARLOCK]

FWIW a channeler who's too weak to make a Gate could burn six trollocs at once. She may be skilled enough to split her flows that many ways. Think of Egwene forkrooted in the tower and irritating her AS teachers by doing exactly that. .

Yes,but to make the fireballs and overcome the forkroot effects she had to link. But she could divide her flows,was just to weak to do anything with them.

[Suttree]

Yes, she knew of the attack on Caemlyn, which is why she increased the scouts in the borders of Andor, because that is where everybody thought of them to come from. That the attack came from the Waygate totally blindsided them.

 

This. Not sure why people keep saying she knew an attack was coming and did nothing when in fact that isn't what happened.

[Manscher]

Anyone else thought that perhaps Slayer, or more precisely Luc, will be one of those swapping sides at a crucial moment? There must be a reason as to why Gitara send Luc into the blight, perhaps to give a counter balance to Isams personality in Slayer? He doesn't seem extremely fond of the Shadow, but is simply just there because he doesn't really have any other choice, and him being Rands uncle can't be completely without reason either.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yes, she knew of the attack on Caemlyn, which is why she increased the scouts in the borders of Andor, because that is where everybody thought of them to come from. That the attack came from the Waygate totally blindsided them.

 

This. Not sure why people keep saying she knew an attack was coming and did nothing when in fact that isn't what happened.

 

Indeed. She thought Andor would be invaded. Even if Caemlyn was the target, any "invasion" would have to pass through hundreds of miles of Andor to reach the city.

 

There is no reason for Elayne to have suspected the Kinswomen would be assassinated. It is hard to kill 4 channellers (which makes me suspect Hanlon with some Foxheads) Sure, she could have had a few more, but I wouldn't call it a grievous error. A little slack, but not brainless stupidity.

[yoniy0]

They didn't need to kill four Kin, only the one. If one prepares for an emergency, one is aware that one might occur. If one is aware, one leaves some redundancy, even if it's token.

[Manscher]

Which is why there is a requirement for regular reports. That is a rather common way to ensure that everything is alright on the other side.

[Ian Ohlander]

Indeed. She thought Andor would be invaded. Even if Caemlyn was the target, any "invasion" would have to pass through hundreds of miles of Andor to reach the city.

And the queen of Andor has no obligation to those subjects outside of Caemlyn? To the residents of those towns and villages sure to become Trolloc food? To be ready to repel an invasion of her country rather than just her capital? Perhaps station women who can make gateways at the borders, in addition to scouts, so that her army can move the crucial spot in time. Have enough lines of communication crisscrossing the land ready to respond. Obviously she can't cover every square inch, but she can at least hit the main roads and towns, including Caemlyn.

 

But she has 4 kin who can make a gateway linked and who will send reports once a day, so she's good.

 

It reminds me of her comment to Perrin that the Two Rivers was never a problem and so there was no need to station troops nearby and that was why they didn't come to the aid of the Two Rivers folk. Perrin told her that there more reasons for a ruler to pay attention to her subjects than only if they were a problem.

[Suttree]

Indeed. She thought Andor would be invaded. Even if Caemlyn was the target, any "invasion" would have to pass through hundreds of miles of Andor to reach the city.

And the queen of Andor has no obligation to those subjects outside of Caemlyn?

 

Yes she does, which is why she increased scouts and patrols along the borders which is where everyone though the attacks would come from with Rand having protected the waygates. Not sure why people keep acting as if she didn't do this.

[Manscher]

She left 4 kin in Caemlyn, we really don't know anything about the borders except for the fact that she increased the scouts. Ontop of that, unless I've gotten the wrong impression, the land north of Caemlyn is pretty much empty of civilization.

[Neophyte]

Which is why there is a requirement for regular reports. That is a rather common way to ensure that everything is alright on the other side.

 

Except it becomes very easy to disable one side (the side in Caemlyn), and then that side can't report. Then the other side (Field of Merrilor) will just wait, ignorant of any problem, until the next scheduled report. Unless they are supposed to report hourly, that leaves lots of time for stuff to go wrong.

 

The requirement for regular reports doesn't help unless 1) the reports are VERY frequent, or 2) both sides have lots of redundancy in case of the need for an unusual report. Given that no one from the Field of Merrilor came and said "Where's the repo ... mother's milk in a cup look at all the Trollocs!" during the course of the events described, the frequency of the reporting wasn't that high, and we know that she didn't leave any redundancy in the Caemlyn contingent's ability to report.

 

Again, if she had not been made aware of an impending attack (she not only knew that it was coming, but she knew that it was coming soon) then the situation would be more understandable. But given what we know she knew, she screwed the pooch big time.

[Ian Ohlander]

Yes she does, which is why she increased scouts and patrols along the borders which is where everyone though the attacks would come from with Rand having protected the waygates. Not sure why people keep acting as if she didn't do this.

My point is why would you rely on horse-bound scouts alone when you have a means to, on sight of an advancing army, or on receiving word from a patrol regarding such an army, to travel instantly to Caemlyn (or Merrilor for that matter) to mobilize the army. Why require that scouts have to travel to Caemlyn and then use a brittle (and easily broken) communication system. It's like there's one cell phone that only works with 4 batteries in series. And repeatedly we have seen Kinswomen get killed. Just because the BA is gone, doesn't mean the darkfriends are or that they don't have access to poisons and forkroot.

 

Knowing there is an invasion you design a more robust and flexible method to handle the problem. But for me, this is entirely in character for Elayne (as smart as I really think she is.)

 

And I definitely think there will be political repercussion to this massive loss to team Light while all the armies are camped in Merrilor.

[Manscher]

She could've left 20 Kin, and the shadow would've send more assassins and killed even more of them, no? It's always easy playing Captain Hindsight. The idea of having regular reports, is just exactly in the case that the other side becomes incapable of reporting back, and(In real life situations) to make sure the guards aren't sleeping on the job. We have no idea how regular a report is required, so stating that it doesn't help seems to be rather premature.

 

And as you are so continently not mentioning, is the fact that nobody expected the invasion to hit straight in the middle of Caemlyn. Everybody assumed it would be an invasion coming on from the north of Andor, yet another reason as to why the system implemented is more than sufficient.

 

@Ian Ohlander

 

We know she used Kinswomen to scout on the Borderland army when it was camped outside the border, it's not that far fetched to imagine that they are still stationed at certain points across the border.

 

You are blaming her for something you do not have the full insight into as of yet(if ever)

[yoniy0]

It's not. Elayne's well aware of Traveling and the Forsaken's facility with it. Why, Rand himself has raided Caemlyn via Gateways just a few months before, and Shadowspawn isn't everything the Shadow's got. But then again, Egwene should be planning on a Seanchan raid but apparently just left all her Novices in the Tower with no more than a dozen sisters. There's stupidity enough to go around, and what bugs me is that it's done by people who should've known better. I can't think of any reason for it, also, except plot-convenience.

[Suttree]

. There's stupidity enough to go around, and what bugs me is that it's done by people who should've known better. I can't think of any reason for it, also, except plot-convenience.

 

People can debate all they want but in reality this is what it comes down to...

[Vardar]

Yes, she knew of the attack on Caemlyn, which is why she increased the scouts in the borders of Andor, because that is where everybody thought of them to come from. That the attack came from the Waygate totally blindsided them.

 

This. Not sure why people keep saying she knew an attack was coming and did nothing when in fact that isn't what happened.

 

Indeed. She thought Andor would be invaded. Even if Caemlyn was the target, any "invasion" would have to pass through hundreds of miles of Andor to reach the city.

 

There is no reason for Elayne to have suspected the Kinswomen would be assassinated. It is hard to kill 4 channellers (which makes me suspect Hanlon with some Foxheads) Sure, she could have had a few more, but I wouldn't call it a grievous error. A little slack, but not brainless stupidity.

 

While I agree with the first part,

 

They know about gateways now right? They know about waygates and portal stones, and I'm pretty sure Eggy and party are not privy to the fact that Shadowspawn cannot pass through gateways yet (Rand just told people)

 

So expecting her to be prepared for an invasion via gateway or waygate or portal stone isn't asking a lot at all.