CAUTION: Super Spoiler Prologue discussion; Leave the cops out of it :)

[Shai-tan]

Anyone else feel like the Talmanes POV sounded more like Mat than the Mat POV we see in Chapter 11?

[Luckers]

Lol!

[pc0000001]

Is it a coincidence that Moridin was in the Town at the same time as a 13x13 procession? He doesn't go there often, perhaps he is there because they are going to turn someone important? Could the 'other one' caught, that Isam referred to, be an Asha'man with Logain, or even Logain himself? I don't see why they'd need to turn them at the Town though, for all we know it could be done anywhere. Maybe being near Shayol Ghul is necessary?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Is it a coincidence that Moridin was in the Town at the same time as a 13x13 procession? He doesn't go there often, perhaps he is there because they are going to turn someone important? Could the 'other one' caught, that Isam referred to, be an Asha'man with Logain, or even Logain himself? I don't see why they'd need to turn them at the Town though, for all we know it could be done anywhere. Maybe being near Shayol Ghul is necessary?

 

Indeed, I was thinking that his thoughts about it being an Aiel channeller was a red herring. I think it is (depending on the timeline) one of Logain's men, or Logain himself. Sandomere or Kajima I think it most likely was in that scene.

 

Just on the note of turned Asha'man, specifically Mezar, I wonder what is happening with his Aes Sedai. It could be an important point. I would say that she would notice the difference. SO has she also been turned? Those bonded to turned Asha'man could be eager to help out Androl and co., and could use the Bond to their advantage. Are they taken hostage via the obedience? Will Mezar order his Aes Sedai to attack Androl and co? I hope this isn't a detail left out. It seems like an important thing.

 

Edit: As to why they are taken to the Town. I would say to hide it from everyone. Taim is supposed to be Rand's trusted man. 13 Myrddraal and 13 women (I think that the process requires linking, which men cannot do on their own) would be hard to hide in the Tower, and with Travelling, it would be simple just to capture their prey and Travel to the Town where the process takes place.

 

I think that Mezar was caught first and the other three escaped. If they had been taken together, you would think that they would all be turned and sent back to the Tower. It could be that the process can only be done once every so often, but Logain at least must have avoided capture originally. Logain would have been the first to be turned and sent back to the Black Tower as Taim's minion. I'd say that Logain is being hunted, and one of them have been caught in this scene.

[Bravehamster]

It could be that the process can only be done once every so often,

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the turning process destroyed the Myrddraal, which would explain why the conversion process in the black tower has gone so slowly.

[MarkDiLillo]

I dont think it was Graendal in the town simply because of the way she spoke to Slayer. Graendal had recently had interaction with him and she poke to him as if she were somebody new entirely. I still think it is most likely Cyndane, but perhaps it's somebody else altogether. Of course, this was a scene written by RJ and perhaps it wasn't corrected enough to account for Graendal's dialogue considering she had just spoken to the guy not too long ago. If the dialogue was a bit different I would buy it being Graendal - indeed, I would say it certainly was her.

[Suttree]

Anyone else feel like the Talmanes POV sounded more like Mat than the Mat POV we see in Chapter 11?

 

Classic.

[Mik]

It could be that the process can only be done once every so often,

 

It wouldn't surprise me if the turning process destroyed the Myrddraal, which would explain why the conversion process in the black tower has gone so slowly.

Nice. Never thought of that, but it makes sense. Also fits with the usual modus operandi of the Dark One; manipulation through destruction.

[Neophyte]

I dont think it was Graendal in the town simply because of the way she spoke to Slayer. Graendal had recently had interaction with him and she poke to him as if she were somebody new entirely. I still think it is most likely Cyndane, but perhaps it's somebody else altogether. Of course, this was a scene written by RJ and perhaps it wasn't corrected enough to account for Graendal's dialogue considering she had just spoken to the guy not too long ago. If the dialogue was a bit different I would buy it being Graendal - indeed, I would say it certainly was her.

 

I'm curious - what about the conversation makes you say that "she poke to him as if she were somebody new entirely"? I didn't detect any of that. In fact, she makes a point of telling him "You've failed in the past." She sounded pretty pissed about his failure too, as though he had failed her personally.

 

She was in disguise - that much is clear, and if it is the Graeffalump I doubt she wants to show off her new bod - so of course she wouldn't say anything that gives away her identity. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say that she treated him like they'd never met before.

[MarkDiLillo]

Nothing specifically really. It just didn't strike me as the interaction Graendal would have with someone who she just recently spoke to and (in her mind) bungled things so badly that it got her killed in the process. Graendal would bear significant ill will towards Slayer and this interaction is very cool and business-like. I think the Lews Therin name drop was inentional and pointed pretty clearly towards Cyndane. But at the same time, the bit about her being disguised also seems strange unless it was to point out that Moridin does not allow Cyndane into TAR anymore and Slayer had never seen her in this new body before.

[Terez]

Or perhaps Cyndane really is as good in the dream as she thinks she is.

[PaulChauvet]

I'm in my reread of the earlier books, so its been a while since I read the later ones. Do ALL the forsaken stop calling him Lews Therin or is it only Lanfear/Cyndane that stops? I know in the earlier books they often call him Lews Therin at the various forsaken hangouts.

[Neophyte]

Nothing specifically really.

 

Fair enough.

 

 

It just didn't strike me as the interaction Graendal would have with someone who she just recently spoke to and (in her mind) bungled things so badly that it got her killed in the process. Graendal would bear significant ill will towards Slayer and this interaction is very cool and business-like.

 

It struck me as coldly business-like. As though she clearly hated dealing with Isam, but had no choice. To wit:

 

"Yes. You have failed in the past." Her voice was ice. He felt a chill. This one was hard. Hard as Moridin.

 

 

I think the Lews Therin name drop was inentional and pointed pretty clearly towards Cyndane.

 

Well, as I've mentioned, it fits the Graeffalumps speech patterns too.

 

 

But at the same time, the bit about her being disguised also seems strange unless it was to point out that Moridin does not allow Cyndane into TAR anymore and Slayer had never seen her in this new body before.

 

Alternatively, there are very good known reasons that the Graeffalump would disguise herself, not the least of which is that she had just used Isam to hunt Perrin and wouldn't want him to recognize her.

 

Also, if Moridin doesn't allow Cyndane into T'A'R, why would he let her go traipsing about the Town? My bet is that Cyndane is either stuck as bait in one of Moridin's dreamshards, or is in her own dreamshard trying to lure Rand in. What we saw in Rand's dream at the end of ToM fits the description of a dreamshard fairly closely.

 

Either way, it is doubtful that Cyndane would be setting Isam to the hunt. She has other plans for Rand al'Thor. The last Cyndane PoV we have is in Wh ch 35, in which "she prayed to the Great Lord that she would reach Lews Therin first. She wanted to see him die, she realized, and for that, she would have to get closer." That doesn't really square with setting Isam to the hunt. It does, however, square with luring al'Thor to her, which is what we see in the epilogue of ToM.

[Treebeard]

Now I know I am on shaky ground because I don't have read the proluge yet but here goes : does anything objectevly speaking for that it is one of the chosen that Isam is conversing with , it could not be that our dear missing Alanna has at last resurfaced, If IIRC there has already been some discussion about her current hiding place and I think it was Luckers who voiced the theory first. it is a long shot I know but is it a hit ?

[Neophyte]

Now I know I am on shaky ground because I don't have read the proluge yet but here goes : does anything objectevly speaking for that it is one of the chosen that Isam is conversing with , it could not be that our dear missing Alanna has at last resurfaced, If IIRC there has already been some discussion about her current hiding place and I think it was Luckers who voiced the theory first. it is a long shot I know but is it a hit ?

 

Considering what al'Thor's death would do to her, Alanna seems an unlikely choice. Also, everything about the character is un-Alanna-like. What would Alanna's motive be here?

 

Since the person is in disguise, I suppose we can't rule her out with certainty. Heck, it could be Taim M'hael in a very, very elaborate disguise. But the sequence of oddness that would have to happen for it to be Alanna is so long and convoluted that I feel comfortable calling this a miss.

[PaulChauvet]

I think the "Lews Therin" comment alone is enough to say it is one of the forsaken (and not the new one we've seen in the prologue or any others who may have been promoted).

[MarkDiLillo]

I'm in my reread of the earlier books, so its been a while since I read the later ones. Do ALL the forsaken stop calling him Lews Therin or is it only Lanfear/Cyndane that stops? I know in the earlier books they often call him Lews Therin at the various forsaken hangouts.

 

Cant say for sure because I'm not one of the detail experts like Terez, but Lanfear was the only one who exclusively called him Lews Therin. She referred to him always as Lews Therin in a way that was sure Rand al'Thor was indeed Lews Therin and she chose to simply use his past name. The others have referred to him as Lews Therin, but I feel like the majority of the time they referred to him as Lews Therin was when they were specifically using that name in context with the guy he used to be or talking about the current Rand in a way that related to their histories. When they referred to the current incarnation of Lews Therin they simply called him Rand or al'Thor, etc because it was a better description of him.

 

Could be wrong, but I feel like that is the difference. The chick giving Slayer his commands referred to him in a way that screams Lanfear in my mind.

[MarkDiLillo]

 

All of Neophyte's reply...

 

 

I pretty much agree with most of what you're saying and am split on whether or not it could be Graendal or Lanfear. The absence of Cyndane from the meeting with the others confirms your belief that she may be locked up exclusively and not be allowed to do much of anything right now. That is entirely possible. What complicates things even further is that RJ wrote this scene himself and therefor we can't use it to match up with some of what Brandon wrote enough to find very good subtle clues. He wrote this scene without the knowledge of what BS was going to write in other parts.

 

My gut tells me Cyndane, but the details point towards Graendal.

 

One last thing - Cyndane/Graendal is not exactly running around alone here. Remember that Moridin is also in the Town with her.

[fionwe1987]

It is not Graendal because Isam feels she behaves in a way he's seen no other Chosen behave. Now, yes, Graendal is a master of her behavior (usually), and can act fabulously well, but I fail to see why her "hardness" would not have been evealed to Isam before.

 

One thing about Hessalam: weren't we told before that the selection of a new body had nothing to do with punishment? Weren't we told that finding new bodies was hard, and so the DO just stuffed you into what could be found? A specially ugly body for Graendal as punishment seems to go against that. The absence of the cour'sovra is even more interesting. If you think about it, the central aspect of Graendal is not beauty but control. Her being under the total control of Moridin, his beautiful plaything, would have made more sense, IMO, as punishment.

 

And did anyone else notice the yellow dress? We've never seen her in that color, I think. I could well be wrong, but I have a feeling she's masquerading as a Yellow sister. I think she's gunnig for Nynaeve (as the woman who can counter her chief ability: Compulsion), as we saw hints of in ToM, and I think she may have placed herself in the Aes Sedai camp in Merrilor.

 

Also... as someone pointed out, the hints of Moridin's character changing are interesting. Rand is clearly "insulated" from external psychological forces now. But what of Moridin? He has none of that, presumably. Could be have been in the Town to have himself turned. How better to counteract the doubts and niceness that are coming from Rand than to use the method proven to suppress those? Moridin may be geting the Dark equivalent of the "liquid light" Rand has protecting his brain. Or maybe not.

[Sid]

Anyone else feel like the Talmanes POV sounded more like Mat than the Mat POV we see in Chapter 11?

 

Hahahaha "I think I've gotten as close to him as it's possible for me to get"

I'll be over here banging my head against a wall.

[MasterAblar]

"Yes. You have failed in the past." Her voice was ice. He felt a chill. This one was hard. Hard as Moridin.

 

That sounds more like Cyndane than Graendal to me.

 

One thing about Hessalam: weren't we told before that the selection of a new body had nothing to do with punishment? Weren't we told that finding new bodies was hard, and so the DO just stuffed you into what could be found?

 

What about Arangar though? Was that just coincidence?

 

Also... as someone pointed out, the hints of Moridin's character changing are interesting. Rand is clearly "insulated" from external psychological forces now. But what of Moridin? He has none of that, presumably. Could be have been in the Town to have himself turned. How better to counteract the doubts and niceness that are coming from Rand than to use the method proven to suppress those? Moridin may be geting the Dark equivalent of the "liquid light" Rand has protecting his brain. Or maybe not.

 

Heh, I like it, dude's on drugs.

[fionwe1987]

 

What about Arangar though? Was that just coincidence?

I think there's an RJ quote saying it was. I think the DO had only a female channeler body, and he stuffed her into it, and the irony was pure profit. The irony wasn't the motivating factor in choosing the body.

[MasterAblar]

What about Arangar though? Was that just coincidence?

I think there's an RJ quote saying it was. I think the DO had only a female channeler body, and he stuffed her into it, and the irony was pure profit. The irony wasn't the motivating factor in choosing the body.

 

Ah, OK.

 

I imagine the problem with finding suitable bodies is that those bodies have to be able to channel correct? Why not just take any random darkfriend channeller then? The gain would outweigh the loss. Then again, that sort of sounds like Agent Smith from the Matrix...

[Terez]

RJ said it was coincidence that Moridin got a nice body, because the Dark One doesn't care if you get a nice body or not. But it was implied with Aran'gar that He had a sense of humor.

[fionwe1987]

RJ said it was coincidence that Moridin got a nice body, because the Dark One doesn't care if you get a nice body or not. But it was implied with Aran'gar that He had a sense of humor.

Yup, but I definitely got the feeling that it wasn't that the DO went looking for a female body, but that when only a female body was available, the DO found it fitting with his usual manner of punishments to stuff Balthamel in there.