voices in the head...why only Rand?

[mike hunt's here]

did anyone mention at any time - that any other male Channeller hears voices in their head like old Rand did?

 

I recall Logain showing some emotion when told Rand could hear LTT, so I'm thinking big L can hear someone, we just don't know who it is right now...

[Andrew the Asha'Man]

I think rand can her LTT because of how they are linked. Both being the Dragon. I believe that Logain shows emotion because he thinks Rand is going Mad and Logain feel's for Rand

[GYLD]

We learned from Semirhage that hearing the voice of a past life is a documented form of madness and presumably the voice of LTT was a result of taint induced madness. The reason Rand seems to be unique in this is that the madness from the taint manifests itself in different ways. There was the anecdote of the Soldier who had to be put down after he started raving about spiders crawling in his skin. There was Morr who regressed back to the mentality of a child and Naeff who believed Myrdraal were hiding in the shadows.

[TristanWebb]

I don't think it is that odd. There are thousands of ways that people can be insane and we have seen a few different ones. Hearing voices seems more common than it is because it is an easy one to show on tv and radio.

[Luckers]

Yes, other men who can channel hear voices--Cadsuane references it as being quite common. More rare are if it's a real past life voice speaking to them, but again given its a normal form of insanity in the Wheel (and the Taint causes natural forms of mental insanity to manifest) then I'd not be surprised to learn other male channelers had heard real voices.

[Hagazussa]

The way I have understood it there are a few common elements that many male channelers get and hearing voices is one of them and there is no reason why this can not be the voices of former lives. I think that possibly the madness may break down some barriers between the current self and former selves. Other things that are common are paranoia, aggression, black outs where the channeler go around doing who know what and hallucination, we see these symptoms in many of the characters. That being said I assume this madness just like more mundane insanity would reflect the personality of the individual channeler. The soldier with delusional parasitosis probably had some fear of spiders or insects or some kind of childhood trauma and so on, the madness would warp the individual's mind and therefore be different for everyone.

 

One more thing is that in WoT everyone is reborn once a age, that means that allot of those male channelers would have had former lives who lived and died in the Age of Legends before any of the trouble started, or their former lives could be men who really did not have a strong personality. There is a difference between someone having a past life who was the most powerful magick user in the world, who was the leader of the magick users order and who for all intents and purposes where a living God and who in addition was raving batshit crazy at the time of his death which came about with the most impressive suicide in history after the guy had found out he had melted his wife, children and rest of his relatives into the walls of his home, and someone who might have a past life who where a common citizen, possibly a channeler who lived his his life, did his profession and died of old age surrounded by family and friends, I have a feeling one of the two would make more impact on their new incarnation's minds than the other.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Because the Pattern demanded for Rand to merge with LTT to become the true Dragon Reborn and no such demand was for all the other Asha'man to merge with their previous lives?

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

Because the Pattern demanded for Rand to merge with LTT to become the true Dragon Reborn and no such demand was for all the other Asha'man to merge with their previous lives?

 

That's what makes the most sense. The only Ashaman it might have forced to do so is Narishma, we still don't know what it means that he will follow after Rand, but I doubt it. It seems to extreme. Of course, it happened to Mat and he doesn't channel.

The old blood sings.

[Hagazussa]

Matt is not experiencing past lives he is experiencing his ancestors, it is a genetic memory thing not a past lives things, remember Matt have memories from a whole bunch of different people, not all of them could have been past lives, they are people who's blood he share.

[Alric]

Well, there are three similar things here, lets not confuse them:

 

1) Past lives. Everyone is reincarnated as far as we know, and their souls have lived previous lives. Other than what Semi says, we only know of one person (Rand) actually remembering anything (Birgitte is an exception considering she was pulled out of T'a'R, but she is forgetting).

2) Mat's memories. He has not lived those lives, they are portions of men's memories that were stolen by the Finns and put into his head.

3) The "old blood". Some sort of genetic memory, we have only seen it in the TR boys, where skills and phrases from Manetheren might pop up in certain situations.

 

Edit: Clarification

[Suttree]

Matt is not experiencing past lives he is experiencing his ancestors, it is a genetic memory thing not a past lives things, remember Matt have memories from a whole bunch of different people, not all of them could have been past lives, they are people who's blood he share.

 

This isn't correct. They are not from his ancestors at all. They are just adventurers who had gone to the Finn land over the years. Further we have seen Mat experience a memory(likely from Aemon) before he goes to the Finns.

[YourNewDragonAndGod]

Well, there are three similar things here, lets not confuse them:

 

1) Past lives. Everyone is reincarnated as far as we know, and their souls have lived previous lives. Other than what Semi says, we only know of one person (Rand) actually remembering anything (Birgitte is an exception considering she was pulled out of T'a'R, but she is forgetting).

2) Mat's memories. He has not lived those lives, they are portions of men's memories that were stolen by the Finns and put into his head.

3) The "old blood". Some sort of genetic memory, we have only seen it in the TR boys, where skills and phrases from Manetheren might pop up in certain situations.

 

Edit: Clarification

Thank you for clarifying. But I still think early Mat was Aemon's soul reborn but he only remembered things when he was under great stress from a battle like situation.

1. Fighting the Trollocs

2. Giving orders to his men, and then screaming at the Aes Sedai to release him while he was being healed.

[Maleshub]

Matt is not experiencing past lives he is experiencing his ancestors, it is a genetic memory thing not a past lives things, remember Matt have memories from a whole bunch of different people, not all of them could have been past lives, they are people who's blood he share.

 

This isn't correct. They are not from his ancestors at all. They are just adventurers who had gone to the Finn land over the years. Further we have seen Mat experience a memory(likely from Aemon) before he goes to the Finns.

 

Mat was fluent in the Old Tongue before entering the Tear stone door ter'angreal. He was the only one of the trio that entered who didn't need a translator.

 

If the Shadar Logoth dagger brough Mat his random luck, then what did the Healing with the OP (using vast amounts of the power) do to him? It may not be connected to his new skills and memories, but as you said, they precede his visit to the snakes and foxes.

[Knivy]

The dagger "ate" at his mind, leaving gaps for his "old blood" to come through.

[Dagon Thyne]

I think rand can her LTT because of how they are linked. Both being the Dragon. I believe that Logain shows emotion because he thinks Rand is going Mad and Logain feel's for Rand

 

The voice was never really LTT. It was Rand being a schitzo.

 

Rand could not accept that he was the dragon, and his subconscious created the voice so he could access his memories from LTT's life without the need to accept the fact that he was LTT and himself in one body.

[TristanWebb]

The voice was LTT.

[XoMeltdownoX]

The voice was LTT.

In your opinion the voice was that of LTT. I make that distinction because it is not a fact. In my opinion, the voice is real, but created by Rand's mind as a coping mechanism. At least there is evidence for this.

 

Edit: I am willing to change my opinion, if you show me enough evidence to convince me of the claim.

[TristanWebb]

The burden of proof is on those saying that it isn't LTT. I have read the arguments, and it introduces far too many new variables and fits far less well than simply accepting that the voice is LTT. Even before Semi said it was the real voice it was obvious it was real and VoG is clearly the nail in the coffin when it comes to Rand was just making things up.

[XoMeltdownoX]

The burden of proof is on those saying that it isn't LTT. I have read the arguments, and it introduces far too many new variables and fits far less well than simply accepting that the voice is LTT. Even before Semi said it was the real voice it was obvious it was real and VoG is clearly the nail in the coffin when it comes to Rand was just making things up.

I am not doubting the voice is real. Let me try to explain my thoughts.

 

We all agree that Rand is experiencing memory seepage from a past life. This seems consistent with the idea of reincarnation. In the real world there are many who claim to remember information or events from a past life. It does not matter if we believe them or not because reincarnation is real in the WoT. How does this occur? Memories are filed away in our brains. Chemical and electrical processes allow us access. How do we account for past life memories then. The soul is not physical, but it is the only common denominator between the current life and the past. Eastern philosophers make reference to the Akashic Record that records the journey of every soul. The AR is sometimes called the "Universal Supercomputer." In the WoT we have such a record called the Pattern. In the WoT if a person is beginning to remember past life events, I believe they are accessing the record via their soul. We only see this first hand by Rand. Perhaps it is easier for Rand because as a HotH his soul resides in TAR between lives. While in TAR, his soul remembers all of his past lives. We see this with Birgitte.

Ok this is my understanding for memory seepage, but so far has nothing to do with the voice.

 

The voice; where does it come from? Some claim it is LTT's voice. I am of the opinion it is a construct of Rand's mind. I disagree that the burden of proof is on the construction theorist. The simplest explanation is that the voice is a construction of Rand's subconscious as manner to cope with the idea he is the DR (may seem counter intuitive to many of you).

 

If the voice is LTT how is he communicating. The man died 3000 years ago. The soul moved on to TAR. The Wheel spun the soul out. That soul is Rand's soul. LTT no longer exists. His voice no longer exists. Proponents of this theory may say this is the simplest explanation, but it is not. It requires some evidence, which so far I have not seen. For this theory to be valid it needs to explain how LTT 's voice is still active when it has no place in this age. I have thought of a few ways you could explain away this theory, but they truly do not make sense. Better to go with an easy to explain, theory with real life parallels.

 

Believing you are someone reborn in WoT is the norm. Believing that the unsolicited memories from that person is crazy, at least in the WoT setting. Who would believe? Some philosophers, Mat and Birgitte. Anyone else would assume Rand is crazy if he made the claim. He even thinks he is crazy and why not. History has told him that he will go crazy. So lets pursue this line of thought. Is Rand craz? He is loosing it. Whether it is the incredible pressure of his life or taint induced or a combination of the two does not matter. Rand hears a voice in his head. We have records of people who hear voices in real life. It is easy to understand how Rand is unable to reconcile the memory seepage, particularly when it comes from the most feared/hated man in the last 3000 years. Unable to reconcile that he/Rand is this man, his subconscious creates this alter ego that speaks to Rand in his head. The LTT voice while full of helpful information that is Rand's anyway, sounds "crazy" allowing Rand to delude himself.

[Suttree]

The burden of proof is on those saying that it isn't LTT. I have read the arguments, and it introduces far too many new variables and fits far less well than simply accepting that the voice is LTT. Even before Semi said it was the real voice it was obvious it was real and VoG is clearly the nail in the coffin when it comes to Rand was just making things up.

 

On the contrary. The VoG scene was what swung a good deal of the "realers" over to the "constructers" side. If you look at polls and arguments on both sites that is when the numbers shifted heavily to the current state of "realers" pretty much being in the minority.

 

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1vis6b5Yka5l9_IxBSNxq0L4DLiUO6IjAohU6c8MULqg

[thisguy]

The voice had to be LTT's. How else would Rand be privy to the knowledge LTT had?

[Suttree]

The voice had to be LTT's. How else would Rand be privy to the knowledge LTT had?

 

No one is saying the memories aren't real...

[thisguy]

The voice had to be LTT's. How else would Rand be privy to the knowledge LTT had?

 

No one is saying the memories aren't real...

The voice had to be his too, even if it was constructed from memories. Even his mannerisms, habits, skills and personality traits came through.

 

Edit to add: if they're the same soul, they're the same person. What might be different is the ego.

 

 

 

 

I think rand can her LTT because of how they are linked. Both being the Dragon. I believe that Logain shows emotion because he thinks Rand is going Mad and Logain feel's for Rand

 

The voice was never really LTT. It was Rand being a schitzo.

 

Rand could not accept that he was the dragon, and his subconscious created the voice so he could access his memories from LTT's life without the need to accept the fact that he was LTT and himself in one body.

 

Edit to add more: I view it almost as if I were to time travel back 20 years and talk to myself. I'd still have to convince myself to change my mind on things. I would have different skills and feelings. In many ways I'd be two people with somewhat different personalities. Etc. The way I view Rand/LTT is like this but with a much longer time gap and completely different memories. They were sharing the same body and having an ego war.

[Suttree]

The voice had to be LTT's. How else would Rand be privy to the knowledge LTT had?

 

No one is saying the memories aren't real...

The voice had to be his too, even if it was constructed from memories. Even his mannerisms, habits, skills and personality traits came through.

 

Which is what the "constructers" say. The memories are real and Rand made the voice up as a coping mechanism. Follow the link I added above. It breaks things down into great detail. The debate has gone on for a very long time and this was one of the topics RJ specifially requested never be answered so I guess we will never really know. In my post above I was just pointing out how the general sentiment shifted post TGS.

[thisguy]

The voice had to be LTT's. How else would Rand be privy to the knowledge LTT had?

 

No one is saying the memories aren't real...

The voice had to be his too, even if it was constructed from memories. Even his mannerisms, habits, skills and personality traits came through.

 

Which is what the "constructers" say. The memories are real and Rand made the voice up as a coping mechanism. Follow the link I added above. It breaks things down into great detail. The debate has gone on for a very long time and this was one of the topics RJ specifially requested never be answered so I guess we will never really know. In my post above I was just pointing out how the general sentiment shifted post TGS.

If the link is Terez's take, I think it's good thinking. I just happen to think that it could simply be the two personalities fighting inside the body of one man. There's no way to really get into the discussion (for me) without getting all metaphysical. In my mind, the memories and habits of a person are quite a bit of the person's personality. We've all encountered things that have made us different in some way - more hopeful, bitter, whatever. We see in RJ's world that everyone is reborn but they don't necessarily take the habits or skills or even likes and dislikes of their prior lives into their present life. Anyway, it doesn't bother me what anyone thinks about this subject, I just think of them as two different personalities sharing the same soul and body.