Could Egwene turn from the light?

[Suttree]

actually Rand did the exact right thing, he got fresh eyes looking at a major problem, and working on it separately allows for a wider search for the answers rather than just narrowing the search along one line. Not to mention if Min was to work with the AS how long before they completely disregarded her and went about their own way only?

 

Rand did the right thing? How does throwing a hail mary towards a mining girl from Baerlon and praying she solve your problems work better than teaming her up with the greatest repository of knowledge in the known world to find the answers. Min would not even have known she was on the right path if not for Cads confirming her assumption. You are free to disagree but getting everyone on the same page would have been the best course of action. Bottom line Eggy asked him to plan and he refused. Funny how a minority in the fandom are already blaming Eggy as if the FoM has come and gone and she is alreay working against him. What we know from the text is she asked him to work together and he said no. We will have to wait to see what happens next. If the world leaders meet, Min has miraculosuly found an asnwer(which is just ludicrous btw) Rand lays out a rational course and she still opposes him then I will be the first one to condemn her.

 

In the end it doesn't matter exactly how old she was. Eggy has held a position of power for what, half a year? Give her a few decades before she can be compared to Mierin's ripeness for the shadow. Egwene sees herself in a certain light, and text from her POV supports that. Look at her actions instead, like bullying Nyn or manipulating Mat to serve her own cause. And I agree with the attributes etched Chaos has listed. I personally can't see how anyone would dispute Eggy's thirst for power since, to me at least, it's been an integral part of the character, but opinions vary I suppose. And it's not bias, I actually enjoy that aspect of her character, it's much more enjoyable than say Perrin's reluctance.

 

You are reaching because we know they dated when they were young(far before the bore) and she had the exact same personality then. As for the rest people dispute Eggy's thirst for power because it is a flawed intepretation(it is rare you even see the most ant-Egwen fans go that far). Nothing in her actions or thoughts suports her being some power hungry tyrant, looking to dominate the world instead of fight TG. It is a complete fabrication and the type of hyperbole that draws away from any real conversation. For instance you site her relationship with Nynaeve witch quite clearly is a coming of age moment. It parallels Nyn's own path as young wisdom and her fight to get people to take her seriously. Yes she goes over board and her handling of the episode in Tar was a heinous act. To look at that in a vacuum however and attempt to tie that back to her being some kind of tyrant is pretty ridiculous. You can fault her methods, you can fault her placing her faith in the WT, what you can not do is fault her motivations. We are literally hammered over the head with the responsibility she feels for reforming the WT and having it ready for TG. That is what drives her chacter. There is not the slightest hint that she actually has other motivations and is going to try for a power grab for herself as opposed to serving the light. I have challenged you twice and you are yet to provide a scrap of evidence showing what you say to be true. Please provide quotes from the text if you would like to continue the conversation.

[etched Chaos]

Amreading LOC, interesting moment just happened. Just before Rand is kidnapped by the AS he hides Egwene behind a weave of Saidin. Egwene realises it's Saidin and is repulsed by it, thinking the taint could actually infect her if she stood too close to the weave. This is the sort of thinking that permeates her opinion of Rand, it's worrying really, she's willing to open her mind to possibilities and whatnot in everything but men and men channeling.

[v2nkata]

If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.

 

The point is Egwene already asked Rand to plan and he refused. Why would you think she wouldn't listen to reason if Min actually figures out how to seal the bore and Rand lays it out rationally.

 

As for Latra she claimed LTTs plan was too dangerous and she ended up being right. As much as LTT saved the world the pattern most likely made sure the women were not involved so the world would not be destroyed in the breaking. Not to mention without Latra and her "Shadar Nor" persona the light likely doesn't make it out of the breaking.

When Rand went to the WT and spoke to Egwene didn't he say that he'll need their help? Doesn't that mean he has a plan? Also how long did Egwene fought for "healing"the tower and all this time Rand and those around him were trying to find a way to win the Last battle? I just can't see how Egwene could be right in her decision not to support Rand.

 

 

On topic: I'm with Suttree that all Egwene did was for the WT and not for herself. While she was imprisoned, if i remember correctly, she said she would let Elaide be the only Amyrlin if it's in WT interest.

[Suttree]

When Rand went to the WT and spoke to Egwene didn't he say that he'll need their help? Doesn't that mean he has a plan? to support Rand.

 

That's the thing, there has been no final decision made whether to support him or not. That is why they are meeting at the FoM...

 

As for Rand having a plan we know he doesn't. He has asked Min to find the answer for him.

 

ToM

I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

"I will, Rand." A cold shiver ran through her. "I promise."

 

"I trust you."

 

 

Amreading LOC, interesting moment just happened. Just before Rand is kidnapped by the AS he hides Egwene behind a weave of Saidin. Egwene realises it's Saidin and is repulsed by it, thinking the taint could actually infect her if she stood too close to the weave. This is the sort of thinking that permeates her opinion of Rand, it's worrying really, she's willing to open her mind to possibilities and whatnot in everything but men and men channeling.

 

This is exactly the the type of problems that come up when people let bias inform their posts on characters. Male channelers have been second to only the DO for 3,000 years in this world. We have not seen one single female channeler not be scared of the taint(and rightly so) aside from Cads and we know that is because weaves can't touch her. So Egwene having a totally normal in world reaction is "worrying" and yet you disregard the fact that when Mat etc find out Rand could channel and turned his back on his friend she is the one person that whole heartedly suported him? Come on mate, there are more than enough things to fault Eggy for without having to reach like this.

 

Lastly for those people thinking she will not listen to reason if Rand lays out a rational plan I have already provided a quote of Eggy saying Rand could be trusted with the world. What more do you need.

[Durinax]

actually Rand did the exact right thing, he got fresh eyes looking at a major problem, and working on it separately allows for a wider search for the answers rather than just narrowing the search along one line. Not to mention if Min was to work with the AS how long before they completely disregarded her and went about their own way only?

 

Rand did the right thing? How does throwing a hail mary towards a mining girl from Baerlon and praying she solve your problems work better than teaming her up with the greatest repository of knowledge in the known world to find the answers. Min would not even have known she was on the right path if not for Cads confirming her assumption. You are free to disagree but getting everyone on the same page would have been the best course of action. Bottom line Eggy asked him to plan and he refused. Funny how a minority in the fandom are already blaming Eggy as if the FoM has come and gone and she is alreay working against him. What we know from the text is she asked him to work together and he said no. We will have to wait to see what happens next. If the world leaders meet, Min has miraculosuly found an asnwer(which is just ludicrous btw) Rand lays out a rational course and she still opposes him then I will be the first one to condemn her.

you don't realize that the way Rand did it was to purposefully inflame the situation and get Egwene to put all her resources into researching about the solution, instead of only focussing on mobilizing?

 

And by having Min keep separate it helps because the AS wouldn't listen to a non channeller discus things about a channelling issue, and would flat out refuse to work with her, or use her as an errand boy instead of using her mind to work on issues. So in the end it saves a bunch of headache, likely Mins confidence, and increases the amount of resources allocated to research.

[Suttree]

And by having Min keep separate it helps because the AS wouldn't listen to a non channeller discus things about a channelling issue, and would flat out refuse to work with her, or use her as an errand boy instead of using her mind to work on issues. So in the end it saves a bunch of headache, likely Mins confidence, and increases the amount of resources allocated to research.

 

Yeah I totally get why he purposely antaganozied her, I just don't think it was the best course of action. Although you have it backwards, he did it to have her mobilize the nations not to haver her research. That is by far the prevailing sentiment.

 

As for Min not sure how it increases the amount of resources to have her go it alone with only what she has from Fel instead of being able to utilyze the greatest repository of knowledge in the known world. That is rather counterintuitive, especially considering once again the only reason Min knows she is on to something is becasue of Cads. If Rand worked with Eggy, told the Browns that they were to help Cads and Min research the problem are you seriously trying to tell me they wouldn't fall inline? Come on Durinax, Cads would set the first uppity one down exactly like she already has with a different AS and they would have far more resources to work on the problem. There are most likely a few Browns that could hear one line of thinking from Min and bring her every book in existence on the topic. Imagine what lost piece of info is realistically just sitting there for the finding.

 

The proper course of action is to get everyone one the same page, not to create more strife between the two groups. Again this very well may happen at the FoM. I fully expect Min to have an answer(no matter how ludicrous that is coming from somoene who went to Baerlon Community Colleg), Rand to lay out his plan and Egwene to support him. As I said if he does that and she still opposes him despite all evidence to the contrary I will condemn her too. As of now it is her duty to question what seems to be a mad man's words. Recall that he came straight from his epiphany to the WT, she had been getting reports of his atrocities from Nyn, he then claimed he would break the seals and refused her in working together for a plan. Not sure how you would expect anyone to be ok with that.

[Durinax]

As for Min not sure how it increases the amount of resources to have her go it alone with only what she has from Fel instead of being able to utilyze the greatest repository of knowledge in the known world. That is rather counterintuitive, especially considering once again the only reason Min knows she is on to something is becasue of Cads. If Rand worked with Eggy, told the Browns that they were to help Cads and Min research the problem are you seriously trying to tell me they wouldn't fall inline? Come on Durinax, Cads would set the first uppity one down exactly like she already has with a different AS and they would have far more resources to work on the problem. There are most likely a few Browns that could hear one line of thinking from Min and bring her every book in existence on the topic. Imagine what lost piece of info is realistically just sitting there for the finding.

Is the tower library open to all? Especially with the content? I imagine that the browns would not want to give her anything useful since she can't channel, is dragonsworn, and has an unknown agenda.

I couldn't see cadsuane religating herself or allowing anyone to put her in a purely research role, she would still be too busy pestering rand or some such. So for that situation, min would not only have to locate Cad but also find someone to Travel her there, thus that doesn't make sense.

 

As for the having two different people looking at the same problem without working together being better, it comes from the bit of programming experience I have. If you have people working together they tend to follow the same idea lines, which is good in a group dynamic, but not the best for problem solving, since that can be very beaurocratic and slow, not to mention it often ends up a compromise or a bit off topic. That is where the other set is the best, because they have fresh eyes on what the other group has done, and can 'trim the fat' type deal, because they have not built it, it is much easier for them to see what is wrong, out of place, or too complicated. That is why I think that having min and the AS working seperately is a very good thing.

[Suttree]

As for the having two different people looking at the same problem without working together being better, it comes from the bit of programming experience I have. If you have people working together they tend to follow the same idea lines, which is good in a group dynamic, but not the best for problem solving, since that can be very beaurocratic and slow, not to mention it often ends up a compromise or a bit off topic. That is where the other set is the best, because they have fresh eyes on what the other group has done, and can 'trim the fat' type deal, because they have not built it, it is much easier for them to see what is wrong, out of place, or too complicated. That is why I think that having min and the AS working seperately is a very good thing.

 

But he didn't put them to working seperately. He didnt tell the WT anything about not having the answers yet. Min is the only one that knows he is relying on her. Further your analogy only works if you are talking about experts which Min assuredly is not. Not to mention the nature of the information where lost knowledge and knowing how to find it should rightly play a very critical role. No, if Rand went to Cads and Eggy, said I am setting Min to this, we need to make sure she has the support of the Browns/WT library the world depends on finding the answer they would find a way to make it work. It's a fantasy novel so of course Min will find the answer in the nick of time but it is not entirely realistic having her out of nowhere be an expert on Fel's level in regards to the seals and nature of the wheel. Shrug, guess we can just add it to the list along with Eggy politicaly outmaneuvering seasoned AS etc.

[etched Chaos]

When Rand went to the WT and spoke to Egwene didn't he say that he'll need their help? Doesn't that mean he has a plan? to support Rand.

 

That's the thing, there has been no final decision made whether to support him or not. That is why they are meeting at the FoM...

 

As for Rand having a plan we know he doesn't. He has asked Min to find the answer for him.

 

ToM

I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

 

"I will, Rand." A cold shiver ran through her. "I promise."

 

"I trust you."

 

 

Amreading LOC, interesting moment just happened. Just before Rand is kidnapped by the AS he hides Egwene behind a weave of Saidin. Egwene realises it's Saidin and is repulsed by it, thinking the taint could actually infect her if she stood too close to the weave. This is the sort of thinking that permeates her opinion of Rand, it's worrying really, she's willing to open her mind to possibilities and whatnot in everything but men and men channeling.

 

This is exactly the the type of problems that come up when people let bias inform their posts on characters. Male channelers have been second to only the DO for 3,000 years in this world. We have not seen one single female channeler not be scared of the taint(and rightly so) aside from Cads and we know that is because weaves can't touch her. So Egwene having a totally normal in world reaction is "worrying" and yet you disregard the fact that when Mat etc find out Rand could channel and turned his back on his friend she is the one person that whole heartedly suported him? Come on mate, there are more than enough things to fault Eggy for without having to reach like this.

 

Lastly for those people thinking she will not listen to reason if Rand lays out a rational plan I have already provided a quote of Eggy saying Rand could be trusted with the world. What more do you need.

 

Really? You posted a Eggy quote? That was Min he was talking to.

 

As for the rest, the problem I have with Egwene shying away from saidin it because it's a childish irrationality, her whole opinion of men and male channellers is that of a child. The bias would work if the majority of the major characters weren't able to put the stories told to them as children behind them and embrace the changes being wrought. Egwene is still stuck in some ill-formed opinion of the world when it comes to men, she's never managed to leave it behind her. She rises all the way from Innkeeper's daughter to Amirilyn and yet she is unable to let go of her childish and incorrect opinions of men. This is a problem.

[Suttree]

Really? You posted a Eggy quote? That was Min he was talking to.

 

As for the rest, the problem I have with Egwene shying away from saidin it because it's a childish irrationality, her whole opinion of men and male channellers is that of a child. The bias would work if the majority of the major characters weren't able to put the stories told to them as children behind them and embrace the changes being wrought. Egwene is still stuck in some ill-formed opinion of the world when it comes to men, she's never managed to leave it behind her. She rises all the way from Innkeeper's daughter to Amirilyn and yet she is unable to let go of her childish and incorrect opinions of men. This is a problem.

 

Errmm yes I did. It was in response to your first post. Would you like it again?

 

ToM

She looked at him, and remembered the youth that he had been. The earnest young man. Not solemn like Perrin, but not wild like Mat. Solid, straightforward. The type of man you could trust with anything.

 

Even the fate of the world.

 

As for the rest what are you on about? You said yourself that the piece you read was in LoC. Saidin was not clean yet so no one's opinions had changed! Even as of TGS the majority of the world had not changed their opinon.

 

TGS

“Your . . . man spoke of this, Coramoor. Some find it difficult to accept.”

 

“It is true,” he said firmly.

 

“I do not doubt that you believe it to be so.”

 

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had

cleansed

the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

 

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

 

They hated male channelers.

 

What do you not get in that pre-cleansing the stories were true and everyone had a very real reason to fear it? No one in world had changed their opinion as of LoC as men were still destined to go mad! Her being scared of it is certainly not incorrect(and a much less mild response than most), so not sure why you would hold her to an unrealistic standard. Especially considering she was the one true friend who backed him and overcame that fear when it was first learned he could channel. Of course once we find out the taint is cleansed she is one of the first to look past it and will have AS and Ashaman working together. She has whole heartedly embraced the changes being wrought and is at the forefront of said changes especially in reforming the WT. Post TG we will most likely see her and Logain working together(Elaida's palace is the perfect spot to relocate once the BT is destroyed) based on her viewing in Tar of the WT windows changing to show the ancient symbol of the AS.

[driedraspberry]

You are reaching because we know they dated when they were young(far before the bore) and she had the exact same personality then. As for the rest people dispute Eggy's thirst for power because it is a flawed intepretation(it is rare you even see the most ant-Egwen fans go that far). Nothing in her actions or thoughts suports her being some power hungry tyrant, looking to dominate the world instead of fight TG. It is a complete fabrication and the type of hyperbole that draws away from any real conversation. For instance you site her relationship with Nynaeve witch quite clearly is a coming of age moment. It parallels Nyn's own path as young wisdom and her fight to get people to take her seriously. Yes she goes over board and her handling of the episode in Tar was a heinous act. To look at that in a vacuum however and attempt to tie that back to her being some kind of tyrant is pretty ridiculous. You can fault her methods, you can fault her placing her faith in the WT, what you can not do is fault her motivations. We are literally hammered over the head with the responsibility she feels for reforming the WT and having it ready for TG. That is what drives her chacter. There is not the slightest hint that she actually has other motivations and is going to try for a power grab for herself as opposed to serving the light. I have challenged you twice and you are yet to provide a scrap of evidence showing what you say to be true. Please provide quotes from the text if you would like to continue the conversation.

 

Why would I provide a quote of something I've never even alluded to?

 

But if you want proof of Eggy stomping over others with questionable implications for the tower, I'll give you one.

 

Myrelle tried another protest, but Egwene just thrust out her right hand with the ring, and Myrelle's knees folded in jerks. She gave the oath in bitter tones, then looked up.

"You've done what has never been done before, Mother. That is always dangerous."

 

While usually I wouldn't normally agree with Myrelle on the last part, in this case she was so on point. Making any AS swear fealty to her showed Eggy would do pretty messed up things if her hide was on the line. It's a terrible practice for an Amrylin.

 

In any case, my point was never that Eggy is a tyrant. Or has a secret agenda. My point is she is very ambitious and the distance she'll go to achieve what she wants to achieve is impossible to predict. She'll do questionable things to reach her ends. This is how I see Mierin started out as, perhaps when she was teen, before the power became addictive. Whether or not Eggy could, in the far future, become a tyrant is up for question. She has attributes similar to those I believe Mierin possessed (this is something you'd probably disagree on, whatever.) but in the end choices will take precedence.

 

I admit I'm not quite certain what RJ meant by Mierin's "ripeness", because personally I don't believe being power hungry is necessarily a bad thing or is it a 100% certainty of making terrible choices until you actually do make them. Perhaps, you are more susceptible, and perhaps you possess a less rigid moral background (blackmailing, fealty oath... ;) ), but it's not certain fate by any means.

[Suttree]

But if you want proof of Eggy stomping over others with questionable implications for the tower, I'll give you one.

 

Myrelle tried another protest, but Egwene just thrust out her right hand with the ring, and Myrelle's knees folded in jerks. She gave the oath in bitter tones, then looked up.

"You've done what has never been done before, Mother. That is always dangerous."

 

While usually I wouldn't normally agree with Myrelle on the last part, in this case she was so on point. Making any AS swear fealty to her showed Eggy would do pretty messed up things if her hide was on the line. It's a terrible practice for an Amrylin.

 

In any case, my point was never that Eggy is a tyrant. Or has a secret agenda. My point is she is very ambitious and the distance she'll go to achieve what she wants to achieve is impossible to predict. She'll do questionable things to reach her ends. This is how I see Mierin started out as, perhaps when she was teen, before the power became addictive. Whether or not Eggy could, in the far future, become a tyrant is up for question. She has attributes similar to those I believe Mierin possessed (this is something you'd probably disagree on, whatever.) but in the end choices will take precedence.

 

I admit I'm not quite certain what RJ meant by Mierin's "ripeness", because personally I don't believe being power hungry is necessarily a bad thing or is it a 100% certainty of making terrible choices until you actually do make them. Perhaps, you are more susceptible, and perhaps you possess a less rigid moral background (blackmailing, fealty oath... ;) ), but it's not certain fate by any means.

 

Here is the difference. Meirin always wanted power and prestige for powers sake. She felt it was her due and "claimed a right" to everything she wanted. In a society that honored self sacrifice above all else she failed to earn the third name despite her talents due to character flaws.

 

Egwene on the other hand had the position of Amyrlin forced on her. The AS we're looking to make her a puppet and so she had to use every trick in the book to get her feet underneath her. That is what the quote your provide with Myrelle was about. Consolidating a base so she could effect change in order to unify the WT. Turnabout is certainly fair play in that situation. Further notice know that she is established she no longer has to use that particular trick. There is no talk of the practice continuing unlike Elaida who wanted to make it mandatory. If she had the traits you claim that most certainly wouldnt be the case. In the end maybe I misconstrued some of what you are saying. You acknowledge she is working towards TG and the greater good but has some characteristics that the shadow could have played upon earlier in the books? Do I have that correct?

[Mr Ares]

To those who say Latra was right, you're incorrect because as soon as her plan proved impossible to carry out within the time constraints they had, LTT's plan was all that was left. Flawed plan or not it was all they had and yet she opposed it all the way to the bitter end and the subsequent breaking. Yet LTT never once opposed Latra's plan he assisted with it until he had no choice but to commit himself and his 100 companions on the strike at SG. If LTT doesn't strike at SG, the light loses, it's as simple as that. You can debate the merits of his plan with hindsight, but given there were two plans on the table and one of them was impossible to carry out in time to save them all, anyone opposing the other plan is condemning them all to destruction.

If Latra hadn't opposed LTT, the women would have gone as insane as the men. Her opposition might have been misguided, but ultimately it proved to be the correct choice. Had she not taken the stand she did, things would have been much, much worse. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that it is only by a fluke that LTT's strike actually helped the Light. The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

You're free to oppose something you deem risky but as soon as that risk is outweighed by the consequences of not acting you forget your prior opinions and back it. This is not about what happened after, it's about the idea of opposing your only method of salvation even when there is no other choice. In this way if Egwene follows suit, she'll condemn them all. If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.

For Egwene to put forward an alternative, first Rand has to put forward a plan. He hasn't yet, because he doesn't have a plan. He has an idea - break the seals. That's not enough.

[thisguy]

I suppose anything could happen to any character in the books to have them turn from the light. That said, I don't think it's going to happen. Egwene is a pain in the butt but she really does want the Tower strong and whole and all that, and most of what she's done since being raised has been to move towards that goal. I don't mind a lot of the manipulation she has done furthering those ends as she's dealing with a lot of self serving sociopaths in the Tower.

 

As for helping Rand find a way to seal the bore: Rand - with LTT's memories - knows better than anyone living how to do that. Obviously, a character can be written in that we haven't heard about who has been working on this problem at the Tower - or one we've already met can instantly become an expert in the Bore Sealing world ("I've been reading books on the sealing of the Bore before you were born, Rand. And, if you ask me nicely I'll tell you what I know, boy. Etc). Truth is, I have no problem with Min being a closet genius who is picking up where Master Fel ended. It makes as much sense as anything else.

 

While I wil defend Egwene in many ways (as much as I find her annoying and somewhat overbearing), I don't think she would just say, "Rand, what a wonderful idea," if he gave her one. She'd fight him every step of the way. It's in her nature.

 

Edit to add: If we go by prophecy, the DR is the only person who can defeat the DO. I think Rand's word should carry more weight. And, if Egwene wants to help, I'd have every Brown in the Tower working on a solution to bring to him.

[avernite]

Considering even Rand Altor, IMO one of the most resistant book 1 characters, could be nearly turned to the shadow, I do believe Egwene was possible. I say resistant because he was raised by Tam who, I think, has one of the strongest characters in the Westlands. Or, as Egwene put it, he, not Perrin or Mat, could be trusted with the fate of the world.

 

However, the Shadow hasn't worked on her, and so it would take a few more books to believably turn her willingly. 13x13 is always possible, I suppose.

[etched Chaos]

To those who say Latra was right, you're incorrect because as soon as her plan proved impossible to carry out within the time constraints they had, LTT's plan was all that was left. Flawed plan or not it was all they had and yet she opposed it all the way to the bitter end and the subsequent breaking. Yet LTT never once opposed Latra's plan he assisted with it until he had no choice but to commit himself and his 100 companions on the strike at SG. If LTT doesn't strike at SG, the light loses, it's as simple as that. You can debate the merits of his plan with hindsight, but given there were two plans on the table and one of them was impossible to carry out in time to save them all, anyone opposing the other plan is condemning them all to destruction.

If Latra hadn't opposed LTT, the women would have gone as insane as the men. Her opposition might have been misguided, but ultimately it proved to be the correct choice. Had she not taken the stand she did, things would have been much, much worse. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that it is only by a fluke that LTT's strike actually helped the Light. The Light's forces were at risk of being overrun if any of the three major offensives they were faced with broke through - LTT's plan did absolutely nothing to counter those major offensives. It dealt only with Shai'tan and the sealing of the Bore, not the armies that the Shadow had already amassed. If he hadn't caught thirteen of the Shadow's highest ranking people, then the Light would likely still have lost.

 

You're free to oppose something you deem risky but as soon as that risk is outweighed by the consequences of not acting you forget your prior opinions and back it. This is not about what happened after, it's about the idea of opposing your only method of salvation even when there is no other choice. In this way if Egwene follows suit, she'll condemn them all. If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.

For Egwene to put forward an alternative, first Rand has to put forward a plan. He hasn't yet, because he doesn't have a plan. He has an idea - break the seals. That's not enough.

 

Did you even understand what my point was? At all? There was no other option once Latra's plan was impossible, if they don't strike at SG, they lose, the Dark wins, that's it, there are no second chances, no miracle cures, they do nothing the dark wins. So really what you're advocating is that the taint on Saidin is worse than the Dark winning.

[Suttree]

Did you even understand what my point was? At all? There was no other option once Latra's plan was impossible, if they don't strike at SG, they lose, the Dark wins, that's it, there are no second chances, no miracle cures, they do nothing the dark wins. So really what you're advocating is that the taint on Saidin is worse than the Dark winning.

 

Actually that's not entirely correct. Yes the keys were lost but we know that the SaSG says "should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months." So "if" the offensives were able to break through the end could have "perhaps" come in months. At the very least then there was a period of time to continue attempting to locate the keys before the strike. Now I'm not saying that is the best course of action, but someone could make an argument that there was still time. We don't know what her thoughts were only that she deemed LTT's plan too dangerous and that she ended up being correct. As pointed out LTT had no plan for the actual war only the sealing. Despite the opposition it was still a joint effort for the light to win and escape the breaking. As has been mentioned the pattern likely needed her opposition to give the light a chance. This time around the opposite is true so your point concerning Eggy doesn't really hold water, especially when she claims he can be trusted with "the world". Once Rand moves things beyond having an idea to break the seals and Min comes up with a plan for the bore I fully expect Eggy to fall in line.

[etched Chaos]

Did you even understand what my point was? At all? There was no other option once Latra's plan was impossible, if they don't strike at SG, they lose, the Dark wins, that's it, there are no second chances, no miracle cures, they do nothing the dark wins. So really what you're advocating is that the taint on Saidin is worse than the Dark winning.

 

Actually that's not entirely correct. Yes the keys were lost but we know that the SaSG says "should any one of the three major offensives commanded by Forsaken break through the end would be only a matter of time, perhaps as little as months." So "if" the offensives were able to break through the end could have "perhaps" come in months. At the very least then there was a period of time to continue attempting to locate the keys before the strike. Now I'm not saying that is the best course of action, but someone could make an argument that there was still time. We don't know what her thoughts were only that she deemed LTT's plan too dangerous and that she ended up being correct. As pointed out LTT had no plan for the actual war only the sealing. Despite the opposition it was still a joint effort for the light to win and escape the breaking. As has been mentioned the pattern likely needed her opposition to give the light a chance. This time around the opposite is true so your point concerning Eggy doesn't really hold water, especially when she claims he can be trusted with "the world". Once Rand moves things beyond having an idea to break the seals and Min comes up with a plan for the bore I fully expect Eggy to fall in line.

 

I'm sorry but this line is absolute codswallop. Too dangerous is the bore getting ripped open and the Dark One walking freely. Tainting Saidin and breaking the World, whilst incredibly bad don't even come close to what would happen if they never tried. They gained 3000 years from his plan that was 'too dangerous', any General or War Commander would take that knowing the other consequences. It was a war, there was always going to be collateral damage from whatever option they took.

 

As for the in months lines, do you really think they would've succeeded in gaining the access keys in a few months? If the Foresaken had broken through they would've had even more trouble locating the keys.

 

From your replies you seem unable to grasp the fact that Latra was opposing the only viable option when almost all hope was lost. Was it pride? A fear to take risks? Who knows, but any rational commander would've realised that this was the last throw of the dice, a final hail mary, if you don't take it, you are almost destined to lose. So why continue to oppose it? Yes, we know of what the consequences would be, but the taint was never once considered by anyone in the AoL, so using that as a reason is illogical and wrong. We're trying to see through their POV with the facts they have at their disposal, but some of you seem to add all the hindsight on top as well.

[Suttree]

Too dangerous is the bore getting ripped open and the Dark One walking freely.

 

Ironically that is what Rand is proposing now without any plan in place as of yet.

 

 

As for the in months lines, do you really think they would've succeeded in gaining the access keys in a few months? If the Foresaken had broken through they would've had even more trouble locating the keys.

 

I don't think so no. I was only pointing out that we don't know her thoughts and someone could make that argument based on the info we have.

 

From your replies you seem unable to grasp the fact that Latra was opposing the only viable option when almost all hope was lost. Was it pride? A fear to take risks?

 

The pattern most likely. It certainly wasn't a fear to take risks. We know this based on her actions in saving the world during the breaking when she earned the nickname "Shadar Nor".

 

Yes, we know of what the consequences would be, but the taint was never once considered by anyone in the AoL, so using that as a reason is illogical and wrong.

 

To my mind, if you deem a plan too dangerous you don't have to pinpoint every possible reason why. For instance someone could say surfing Mavericks is too dangerous because you might drown. If you then end up being attacked and killed by a great white then it was still too dangerous, if not for the original reason given. She deemed the plan too dangerous and ended up being correct for all that there likely was no other option for LTT. Again I believe the pattern orchestrated the whole thing.

[b3arz3rg3r]

And by having Min keep separate it helps because the AS wouldn't listen to a non channeller discus things about a channelling issue, and would flat out refuse to work with her, or use her as an errand boy instead of using her mind to work on issues. So in the end it saves a bunch of headache, likely Mins confidence, and increases the amount of resources allocated to research.

 

Yeah I totally get why he purposely antaganozied her, I just don't think it was the best course of action. Although you have it backwards, he did it to have her mobilize the nations not to haver her research. That is by far the prevailing sentiment.

 

As for Min not sure how it increases the amount of resources to have her go it alone with only what she has from Fel instead of being able to utilyze the greatest repository of knowledge in the known world. That is rather counterintuitive, especially considering once again the only reason Min knows she is on to something is becasue of Cads. If Rand worked with Eggy, told the Browns that they were to help Cads and Min research the problem are you seriously trying to tell me they wouldn't fall inline? Come on Durinax, Cads would set the first uppity one down exactly like she already has with a different AS and they would have far more resources to work on the problem. There are most likely a few Browns that could hear one line of thinking from Min and bring her every book in existence on the topic. Imagine what lost piece of info is realistically just sitting there for the finding.

 

 

Min is really no less educated than Egwene herself. 13 weeks in the tower really aren't worth much in terms of general education and Siuan only gave her WT history lessons from what I remember. So why shouldn't the Baerlon Community College be enough to figure out something about the nature of the Creator's seal of the DO when the Emondsfield elementary school is enough to become Amyrlin. As for the greatest repository of knowledge in the world, we can assume it's pretty much useless in this regard. The Aes Sedai know nothing about how the DO's prison should be properly sealed.

And no the Aes Sedai wouldn't fall in line. Not unless Rand stayed with them long enough to bend them to his will with his ta'veren influence. As an organisation the Aes Sedai are just too unwieldy and have a far too exaggerated belief of their own importance. They would have taken weeks to decide anything and Rand just didn't have the time to waste. Or so he thinks at least. Convincing the Aes Sedai just wasn't worth the trouble from his perspective. They aren't important enough in comparison to everything else he had to do. Rand needs two women who can channel for his battle. Three if you count Alivia. The others will certainly be needed to fight the Shadowspawn, but not when it comes to sealing the DO.

 

 

 

The proper course of action is to get everyone one the same page, not to create more strife between the two groups. Again this very well may happen at the FoM. I fully expect Min to have an answer(no matter how ludicrous that is coming from somoene who went to Baerlon Community Colleg), Rand to lay out his plan and Egwene to support him. As I said if he does that and she still opposes him despite all evidence to the contrary I will condemn her too. As of now it is her duty to question what seems to be a mad man's words. Recall that he came straight from his epiphany to the WT, she had been getting reports of his atrocities from Nyn, he then claimed he would break the seals and refused her in working together for a plan. Not sure how you would expect anyone to be ok with that.

 

I really don't see anything wrong with Min coming up with the answer. She has spend months on working through Fel's books and it's not as if Rand would want her to tell him a weave in the one power. What Rand needs is a fundamental answer to the problem and not a detailed schematic of how to defeat the DO.

 

Now, on topic. Yes, Egwene could turn to the Shadow, but by herself that would take years of personal defeats to drive her to such a point. I think she could turn if she lived a life similar to Demandred. If she always ended up overshadowed by someone else, her ambition to reach the top could turn her away from the light.

[etched Chaos]

Too dangerous is the bore getting ripped open and the Dark One walking freely.

 

Ironically that is what Rand is proposing now without any plan in place as of yet.

 

 

As for the in months lines, do you really think they would've succeeded in gaining the access keys in a few months? If the Foresaken had broken through they would've had even more trouble locating the keys.

 

I don't think so no. I was only pointing out that we don't know her thoughts and someone could make that argument based on the info we have.

 

From your replies you seem unable to grasp the fact that Latra was opposing the only viable option when almost all hope was lost. Was it pride? A fear to take risks?

 

The pattern most likely. It certainly wasn't a fear to take risks. We know this based on her actions in saving the world during the breaking when she earned the nickname "Shadar Nor".

 

Yes, we know of what the consequences would be, but the taint was never once considered by anyone in the AoL, so using that as a reason is illogical and wrong.

 

To my mind, if you deem a plan too dangerous you don't have to pinpoint every possible reason why. For instance someone could say surfing Mavericks is too dangerous because you might drown. If you then end up being attacked and killed by a great white then it was still too dangerous, if not for the original reason given. She deemed the plan too dangerous and ended up being correct for all that there likely was no other option for LTT. Again I believe the pattern orchestrated the whole thing.

 

Rand is working on a plan though, he's set out Min to try and give a fresh perspective and has basically given Egwene a kick up the backside to try and get going on it too, only signs show that she hasn't.

 

Yes, they could make that argument but it has little weight behind it. Which is why I usually ignore it completely, there's no point going down the path that perhaps they still had time. Basically because they really didn't, months is a scant amount of time to do what needed doing for Latra's plan to still be feasible.

 

But that's past the bore being sealed, the big risk had been taken and all that was left was to fight all that remained. There's one thing to fight the Shadow one on one, it's quite another to take the risk LTT did.

 

The problem was that you labelled her as a correct for thinking it was too dangerous, that is a wrong statement. Because too dangerous implies that the risk outweighs the consequences of not doing anything, the risks were never more than the consequences of doing nothing, because doing nothing would be the end of everything. It was a desperate gambit, by desperate people and Latra opposed it (Pattern induced or not), she opposed it to the bitter end even when it was all they had left. If the Pattern played no part in this then she was wrong to do so, it's fine if you can use another option, but once you reach the stage of needing to act and that's all you have left, you fall in line.

[driedraspberry]

But if you want proof of Eggy stomping over others with questionable implications for the tower, I'll give you one.

 

Myrelle tried another protest, but Egwene just thrust out her right hand with the ring, and Myrelle's knees folded in jerks. She gave the oath in bitter tones, then looked up.

"You've done what has never been done before, Mother. That is always dangerous."

 

While usually I wouldn't normally agree with Myrelle on the last part, in this case she was so on point. Making any AS swear fealty to her showed Eggy would do pretty messed up things if her hide was on the line. It's a terrible practice for an Amrylin.

 

In any case, my point was never that Eggy is a tyrant. Or has a secret agenda. My point is she is very ambitious and the distance she'll go to achieve what she wants to achieve is impossible to predict. She'll do questionable things to reach her ends. This is how I see Mierin started out as, perhaps when she was teen, before the power became addictive. Whether or not Eggy could, in the far future, become a tyrant is up for question. She has attributes similar to those I believe Mierin possessed (this is something you'd probably disagree on, whatever.) but in the end choices will take precedence.

 

I admit I'm not quite certain what RJ meant by Mierin's "ripeness", because personally I don't believe being power hungry is necessarily a bad thing or is it a 100% certainty of making terrible choices until you actually do make them. Perhaps, you are more susceptible, and perhaps you possess a less rigid moral background (blackmailing, fealty oath... ;) ), but it's not certain fate by any means.

 

Here is the difference. Meirin always wanted power and prestige for powers sake. She felt it was her due and "claimed a right" to everything she wanted. In a society that honored self sacrifice above all else she failed to earn the third name despite her talents due to character flaws.

 

Egwene on the other hand had the position of Amyrlin forced on her. The AS we're looking to make her a puppet and so she had to use every trick in the book to get her feet underneath her. That is what the quote your provide with Myrelle was about. Consolidating a base so she could effect change in order to unify the WT. Turnabout is certainly fair play in that situation. Further notice know that she is established she no longer has to use that particular trick. There is no talk of the practice continuing unlike Elaida who wanted to make it mandatory. If she had the traits you claim that most certainly wouldnt be the case. In the end maybe I misconstrued some of what you are saying. You acknowledge she is working towards TG and the greater good but has some characteristics that the shadow could have played upon earlier in the books? Do I have that correct?

 

Yup, I think she's susceptible. I'm not judging Eggy for the lengths she had to go to, but just the fact that she did, makes her a certain kind of person.

 

Hmmm perhaps I was wrong about Mierin, but I still like to think she wasn't so extreme in her er qualities always. I wish we had more insight into her self dialogue. We know at least for one she considers herself a "nice" person. Maybe she thinks she'd have done well being in charge of the universe. It is sort of what I see in Eggy, the certainty that she'd do the world good from a position of power would subverts any quelms she'd have about attaining power. Not that she'd go to Mierin's lengths exactly.

[Elan Tedronai]

People comparing egwene to lanfear. Now i have heard everything. This thread seems to be more about what people wished to see happened rather than reality. Truth of the matter is lanfear was a power hungry trollop whereas egwene is someone who actually decided to have a red as her keeper.

 

 

To those who say Latra was right, you're incorrect because as soon as her plan proved impossible to carry out within the time constraints they had, LTT's plan was all that was left. Flawed plan or not it was all they had and yet she opposed it all the way to the bitter end and the subsequent breaking. Yet LTT never once opposed Latra's plan he assisted with it until he had no choice but to commit himself and his 100 companions on the strike at SG. If LTT doesn't strike at SG, the light loses, it's as simple as that. You can debate the merits of his plan with hindsight, but given there were two plans on the table and one of them was impossible to carry out in time to save them all, anyone opposing the other plan is condemning them all to destruction.

 

You're free to oppose something you deem risky but as soon as that risk is outweighed by the consequences of not acting you forget your prior opinions and back it. This is not about what happened after, it's about the idea of opposing your only method of salvation even when there is no other choice. In this way if Egwene follows suit, she'll condemn them all. If she wants to oppose Rand she needs to put an alternative on the table and it needs to be viable enough to be considered. It's no good going to Merrilor and saying, I oppose the breaking of the seals, we should wait until another plan presents itself. That plan may never materialise and you've then given the Shadow all the advantage.

 

you're joking right? LTT's plan was not a plan. It was a crazy concoted idea by man who truly believed that he could do the same thing the creator did. It's ironic that the greatest man of his age could not come up with a plan to heal the rupture lanfear made.And instead chose to rely on saidin and ofcourse saidar Not only that but he failed as a commander to protect the areas where the access keys were located.

 

If latra bowed down to his demands it would have been basically game over. It's chilling enough that men can go mad but aes seda women insane too? That's blood curdling. And you seem to be making the assumption that if LTT did not go ahead the light were basically doomed. Actually the light were doomed the moment none of the aes sedai could come up with a full proof plan to seal the bore

[thisguy]

If you believe Fel's reasoning, the bore could not be sealed by LTT at that time. This means that there had to be some flaw in any plan used by the As of the time to seal the bore.

 

As for the present age: does anybody know if Egwene has set any of the AS to figuring out how to seal the bore? I have no memory of her doing so.

[Elan Tedronai]

If you believe Fel's reasoning, the bore could not be sealed by LTT at that time. This means that there had to be some flaw in any plan used by the As of the time to seal the bore.

 

As for the present age: does anybody know if Egwene has set any of the AS to figuring out how to seal the bore? I have no memory of her doing so.

 

huh? the bore could not be sealed at that time? That's just BS. nowhere does fel say that. The flaw was using a plaster to heal a wound that needed to be stiched actually. That's what fel was trying to say at that time. Pity it took LTT 3000 years to realise this fact