Chapter 11

[b3arz3rg3r]

The Crystal Throne, that's how. It's a ter'angreal that inspires reverence and wonder for the one who's sitting on it and Turak was high enough in the list of succession that he probably spend quite some time at court. Enough time for him to fall completely under its sway and really come to believe the Seanchan indoctrination at heart.

That's not it. Examine Suroth's aversion to assassinating Tuon (who never sat the Crystal Throne) when first confronted with the idea. Yes, she got over it, but to first think of it felt like sacrilege (and she's a DF). This attitude simply cannot live in a place where people ever consider such things.

 

I don't see the problem. Even if Tuon hasn't ever sat on the CT, being the heir of the empress she is still closely associated with it. The mere fact that she will sit on the CT should be enough to make anyone who has ever been in its presence remember the feelings he or she experienced in front of it.

 

And not just that,the reverence for the CT in Seanchan is pretty much the same as religious awe. It is instilled within children as soon as they learn to speak. Suroth and Turak probably heard it since they could barely walk and the first time they ever met the Empress every story they heard about her and it would have been confirmed to them.

[yoniy0]

Turak and Suroth, but not Galgan (or Jame, for that matter, if you're talking about indoctrination)?

[sleepinghour]

I don't find anything wrong with giving a nod to people who've done so much for the series, yet I kind of wish Jame acted more Seanchan than he did if he was going to be a Seanchan. It could have totally worked, but Brandon just didn't put the effort into it to make it that way. It doesn't have a single thing to do with being based on anyone IRL, it's just that if someone is Seanchan, or Aiel, or Tarien, or Saldaean, they should act that way.

 

I agree. I think it's a nice gesture to fans, but too often, the names or characters don't really fit into WoT. The worst example is probably "the ancient statue of Eleyan al'Landerin and her Warders" in TGS, which seemed like an obvious reference to some TarValon.net roleplaying fan. (I googled it, and it turned out to be exactly that.)

 

When I read this chapter, I thought, "Oh, fans named James and Kathleen?" then wondered why Kathana was described as having fair skin when every other Ebou Dari we've seen has had the olive skin typical of Altarans. It felt very much like a repeat of the Melli Craeb scene in ToM.

[yoniy0]

And that's exactly what it was. I believe one of the reasons for choosing these scenes as preview material is the tip of the hat to Melissa and Jennifer/Jimmy.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Turak and Suroth, but not Galgan (or Jame, for that matter, if you're talking about indoctrination)?

 

We don't know yet about Galgan's motives. Jame and Kathana could have been talking nonsense for all we know. In TOM we heard from Tuon that Galgan had pretended to hire assassins to kill Tuon only to kill them as a message to her. What Jame and Kathana are talking about could be a distorted version of that. That makes far more sense to me than Tuon not acting to dispose of Galgan when apparently the entire city knows that Galgan is trying to have her killed.

 

I think you overlooked my opinion of Jame. I said the guy didn't belong into WOT. He doesn't fit the story and it's really no surprise that he's nothing but fanservice.

[Terez]

It's not fanservice. It's husbandservice. (Or conservice.) There's a difference.

[XoMeltdownoX]

One word summary: blunt.

 

The assassins were not meant to succeed, therfore this a message. I can see Galgan sending assassins as a statement after Tuon the DotNM, but not the empress. Maybe that's just me.

 

It seems Mat will challenge Galgan to a duel. The lower classes duel with knives. Iirc Beslan's duel with another noble was with swords. Does the one challenged choose the weapons? Mat is certainly not a swordsman.

[Sasha Grayes]

You know, it occurs to me that I absolutely trust Fain in his assessment of Turak, that he honestly wished immortality on the Empress. How that attitude might exists in a society where it's common knowledge that generals fiddle with assassinating her (and not scandalous by any means), I have no clue.

 

I've always thought they kill each other but not the empress herself.

 

Anyone have any idea why Mat has posters of him scattered in Ebou Dar? Tuon/High Blood looking for him for being the prince of ravens or is it for the murder of Tylin if it is that why hasn't Tuon done anything about it?

[b3arz3rg3r]

It's not fanservice. It's husbandservice. (Or conservice.) There's a difference.

 

Well, as long as a half mad channeller named Loki from the Island of Madmen doesn't appear all of a sudden to confess his love to Cadsuane or a female scholar who has an encyclopedic knowledge of the history of Randland named Terasne or some such doesn't explain to Rand how the Bore has to be sealed XD

[Terez]

Fear not, I specifically requested not to be in the book

[Rocky_Outcrop]

I get the distinct impression that a lot of you read Mat sections and are too judgemental, annoyed and down right unforgiving.

 

Reading this thread just annoys me as a result. Will all you fishwives handwringing about this book change it one iota? No. Will it serve to further compound and reinforce your own frustration? Yes. Will it also result in an exaggerated annoyance because you see problems which don't exist? Quite possibly.

 

Tale the dream spike discussion that has just happened. Rand obviously knows about dream spikes. Why are you even discussing the possibility that he doesn't? Strikes me as a bit self flagulisitic.

 

The boots part really pushed your buttons, huh? Ohhh Mat is talking about boots again, hoooooowwwww repettetive oh let's hate this guy that says the same stuff again and again.... By the same logic we should all hate ourselves on this forum! This very thread is full of repeats. Personally the part that annoyed me was the 'you've got a winner' which reads like an americanism.

 

Why does no one else accept that Tuon expects assassins so using ones that will fail is a way of almost complimenting her? Or something like that. I don't get what has caused the friction here about that.

 

What is with people saying Mat was sexually assaulted, that's a bit much isn't it? Him looking back fondly is like when you look back on a crazy x girlfriend..

 

 

As you can tell this that'd annoyed me more than the book itself. I will just stop writing this thread rather than talk about the double use of the word literally earlier or the lack of understanding of medieval non American history.

 

 

[Luckers]

It's not fanservice. It's husbandservice. (Or conservice.) There's a difference.

 

Well, as long as a half mad channeller named Loki from the Island of Madmen doesn't appear all of a sudden to confess his love to Cadsuane or a female scholar who has an encyclopedic knowledge of the history of Randland named Terasne or some such doesn't explain to Rand how the Bore has to be sealed XD

Fear not, I specifically requested not to be in the book

 

As did I.

[b3arz3rg3r]

It's not fanservice. It's husbandservice. (Or conservice.) There's a difference.

 

Well, as long as a half mad channeller named Loki from the Island of Madmen doesn't appear all of a sudden to confess his love to Cadsuane or a female scholar who has an encyclopedic knowledge of the history of Randland named Terasne or some such doesn't explain to Rand how the Bore has to be sealed XD

Fear not, I specifically requested not to be in the book

 

As did I.

 

But then Caddy will die without getting some lovin'

[Luckers]

It's not like she was going to get it from me anyway (Mat, on the other hand, could do with some loving I think...). Besides, Cadsuane and I would fight like two cats in a sack.

[yoniy0]

Why does no one else accept that Tuon expects assassins so using ones that will fail is a way of almost complimenting her? Or something like that. I don't get what has caused the friction here about that.

Because some of us feel like the person of the Empress is sacred in Seanchan society, and sending assassins after her is nothing short of unthinkable. The high blood, sure. Within the Imperial family even, we know that it does happen. But the Empress herself, may she live forever? No.

As for the rest, it can be comforting to share feelings of frustration with others, which is -- now -- really everything that comes out of it, I concede. You are naturally free to share your frustration at that frustration. The part about Tylin and Mat goes back a long way, and I don't want to get into it. Suffice it to say that RJ saw a considerable amount of criticism at what was conceived as sanctioned sexual assault.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Ha ok, fair enough.

 

Have you read Discworld? There's a mad society for you. It has some examples of people expecting assassination. Its obviously meant to be funny and the reason it is funny is because it reflects real life.

 

Maybe Tuon would be insulted to find out that the assassins are meant to fail, is she not deamed worthy of a high class and expensive assassin?

 

;-)

 

Putting that aside for now id like to mention that the story opens up a lot of possibilities. Maybe Mat will try and go through the beaurocratic process of booking a duel with Galgan. Maybe Galgan is Demandred and tries to use the power on Mat and fails, opening the door for a fatal blow etc.

 

Mat is on his own in this chapter which is interesting. He is not encumbered by anyone, like the band which would give away his presence immediately and restrict his movement. On the other hand he doesn't have anyone like an Aiel to climb a wall for him etc. I think this means he will be pretty careful about what he does in the city. Albeit he has blown his cover already. Possibly he will use this to cause unrest and in some sort of uprising he could sneak somewhere or accomplish another clandestine goal.

 

The bit about Pips for me suggests that he won't leave the city without considering his horse. From a plot point of view I think this means he won't be getting carried away off just to leave Pips to be sold off by the stable owner.

 

People have been told to look for him - that's interesting too, is this Tuon herself's doing? Is this Galgan or maybe even some locals who are after him? Could it be a result of that picture that was going about when he was at hindearstrap?

 

I think there is a heck of a lot of stuff here to look at. Either you are like me and you want to be getting stuck into the plot and looking at the possibilities or you are like Luckers and you would prefer to concentrate on sighing at Brandon. Both are really valid and maybe we could have two threads, an AS symbol if you like, ;). I'd prefer to keep it all here but if everyone could limit their opinions of Mat etc to only the most insightful of things rather than taking each and every bit of his dialogue and flipping it around to show how much better it could have been.

[David Selig]

Still no news about the prologue of AMOL being released as an e-book, right? Or have I missed something?

 

As for the excerpt, I mostly liked it.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Mat is on his own in this chapter which is interesting. He is not encumbered by anyone, like the band which would give away his presence immediately and restrict his movement. On the other hand he doesn't have anyone like an Aiel to climb a wall for him etc. I think this means he will be pretty careful about what he does in the city. Albeit he has blown his cover already. Possibly he will use this to cause unrest and in some sort of uprising he could sneak somewhere or accomplish another clandestine goal.

 

People have been told to look for him - that's interesting too, is this Tuon herself's doing? Is this Galgan or maybe even some locals who are after him? Could it be a result of that picture that was going about when he was at hindearstrap?

I immediately assumed it was Tuon's doing. For some reason, perhaps a foretelling from one of her damane, she believed that Mat might be about to return to Ebou Dar and given their last parting she couldn't predict what Mat would do.

 

As for what Mat is about to do, what else could it be other than to find a way to get the Seanchan to throw in at the side of the other nations and Rand? Other than the Aiel the Seanchan are the single most powerful nation. If the Light is as outnumbered as everyone expects they can't afford for the Seanchan to idly stand by.

[Luckers]

Still no news about the prologue of AMOL being released as an e-book, right? Or have I missed something?

 

As for the excerpt, I mostly liked it.

 

I'm guessing late october.

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Mat is on his own in this chapter which is interesting. He is not encumbered by anyone, like the band which would give away his presence immediately and restrict his movement. On the other hand he doesn't have anyone like an Aiel to climb a wall for him etc. I think this means he will be pretty careful about what he does in the city. Albeit he has blown his cover already. Possibly he will use this to cause unrest and in some sort of uprising he could sneak somewhere or accomplish another clandestine goal.

 

People have been told to look for him - that's interesting too, is this Tuon herself's doing? Is this Galgan or maybe even some locals who are after him? Could it be a result of that picture that was going about when he was at hindearstrap?

I immediately assumed it was Tuon's doing. For some reason, perhaps a foretelling from one of her damane, she believed that Mat might be about to return to Ebou Dar and given their last parting she couldn't predict what Mat would do.

 

As for what Mat is about to do, what else could it be other than to find a way to get the Seanchan to throw in at the side of the other nations and Rand? Other than the Aiel the Seanchan are the single most powerful nation. If the Light is as outnumbered as everyone expects they can't afford for the Seanchan to idly stand by.

 

So you think Tuon, hmmm, I wonder. The way Mat was using the name Tuon, seemed to be taking the assassination attempts personally and then one of the characters figures out who he is could indicate that the two things are linked.. Eh what I mean is from an audience perspective we are maybe supposed to link the two things together and assume Tuon is looking for Mat but in reality there is nothing to suggest that she has given an order to do so or that even if she would that she would describe his appearance in such an obvious way.... On the other hand - if these guys in Ebu Dar were seeing the same wanted pictures that were floating around before that would explain why the hat features as part of the recognition sequence.. Don't you think?

 

As for his mission - inst that a bit vague? A bit of a gamble just sending one man in to change the course of the entire Seanchan war machine without giving him any specific ideas on what to do... Seems to me like he has a more specific reason for being there. Possibly he is looking for Tuon and a distraction from everything else or maybe he is just being pushed by the pattern but I think he is looking to achieve something specific which requires him to stay out if sight. If he is to get the Seanchan to unite with Rand is it not also easier to be found, arrested or whatever, by the Seanchan and do a 'take me to your leader..' then tell Tuon just what is going down?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Mat is on his own in this chapter which is interesting. He is not encumbered by anyone, like the band which would give away his presence immediately and restrict his movement. On the other hand he doesn't have anyone like an Aiel to climb a wall for him etc. I think this means he will be pretty careful about what he does in the city. Albeit he has blown his cover already. Possibly he will use this to cause unrest and in some sort of uprising he could sneak somewhere or accomplish another clandestine goal.

 

People have been told to look for him - that's interesting too, is this Tuon herself's doing? Is this Galgan or maybe even some locals who are after him? Could it be a result of that picture that was going about when he was at hindearstrap?

I immediately assumed it was Tuon's doing. For some reason, perhaps a foretelling from one of her damane, she believed that Mat might be about to return to Ebou Dar and given their last parting she couldn't predict what Mat would do.

 

As for what Mat is about to do, what else could it be other than to find a way to get the Seanchan to throw in at the side of the other nations and Rand? Other than the Aiel the Seanchan are the single most powerful nation. If the Light is as outnumbered as everyone expects they can't afford for the Seanchan to idly stand by.

 

So you think Tuon, hmmm, I wonder. The way Mat was using the name Tuon, seemed to be taking the assassination attempts personally and then one of the characters figures out who he is could indicate that the two things are linked.. Eh what I mean is from an audience perspective we are maybe supposed to link the two things together and assume Tuon is looking for Mat but in reality there is nothing to suggest that she has given an order to do so or that even if she would that she would describe his appearance in such an obvious way.... On the other hand - if these guys in Ebu Dar were seeing the same wanted pictures that were floating around before that would explain why the hat features as part of the recognition sequence.. Don't you think?

 

Those wanted posters floating around weren't official or anything. They wouldn't be handed out to guards or pinned to public squares or anything. Tuon or some other Seanchan official ordered Mat's description to be made known.

Why wouldn't Tuon go about it in such an obvious way? It's not as if she would want him dead or anything. There's probably some order to take him into custody and bring him before her without harming him or some such.

 

 

 

As for his mission - inst that a bit vague? A bit of a gamble just sending one man in to change the course of the entire Seanchan war machine without giving him any specific ideas on what to do... Seems to me like he has a more specific reason for being there. Possibly he is looking for Tuon and a distraction from everything else or maybe he is just being pushed by the pattern but I think he is looking to achieve something specific which requires him to stay out if sight. If he is to get the Seanchan to unite with Rand is it not also easier to be found, arrested or whatever, by the Seanchan and do a 'take me to your leader..' then tell Tuon just what is going down?

 

Let me first say that I don't think it helps your argument at all if you refer to such a plan as a gamble when it involves Mat. If anything it being called a gamble makes it even more likely that Mat is doing exactly that.

 

Rand already tried the official route so I don't see anything odd with Mat trying things his own way this time. Mat could be trying to reach Tuon alone and not the Empress in public for all we know.

 

And really I don't see what else it could be. What could be more specific than to get the Seanchan armies to fight the trollocs incursion in Caemlyn?

Looking for a distraction? Yeah, as if Mat would run away to Ebou Dar to find a distraction while his friends fight the last battle.

[MasterAblar]

Putting that aside for now id like to mention that the story opens up a lot of possibilities. Maybe Mat will try and go through the beaurocratic process of booking a duel with Galgan. Maybe Galgan is Demandred and tries to use the power on Mat and fails, opening the door for a fatal blow etc.

 

Galgan appeared in KoD and ToM so no, he can't be Demandred.

[Suttree]

I get the distinct impression that a lot of you read Mat sections and are too judgemental, annoyed and down right unforgiving.

 

Reading this thread just annoys me as a result. Will all you fishwives handwringing about this book change it one iota? No. Will it serve to further compound and reinforce your own frustration? Yes. Will it also result in an exaggerated annoyance because you see problems which don't exist? Quite possibly.

 

Or you know, it's what the vast majority of fans have said(including Brandon himself) that BS struggles in getting the character down. We know the issues are very real and the author himself has admitted them. What is so surprising is many of the things he was attempting to fix pop up again in this chapter. Further there is not one single piece of preview material ever released that hasn't been broken down to excruciating detail here or at Theoryland. Not sure why you would expect this one to be any different? I mean how dare people critique a piece of writing in the WoT!? The horror.

 

The boots part really pushed your buttons, huh? Ohhh Mat is talking about boots again, hoooooowwwww repettetive oh let's hate this guy that says the same stuff again and again.... By the same logic we should all hate ourselves on this forum! This very thread is full of repeats.

 

Seriously? Pulling a published piece of literature down to the same standard as an online discussion forum. Errr you really aren't expecting much out AMoL are you?

 

What is with people saying Mat was sexually assaulted, that's a bit much isn't it?

 

As he was sexually assaulted at knife point, no not really.

[Terez]

RJ himself said that the Tylin-Mat situation was supposed to be a humorous way of calling attention to the fact that female sexual aggression is treated so differently from male sexual aggression. In other words, if Mat had done to Tylin what Tylin did to Mat, we would have called it rape. In fact, RJ and Harriet did call it rape, but most readers don't see it that way. Yes, Mat liked it, more so as time went on. That doesn't change the fact. And Elayne seemed to think it was no less than Mat deserved for chasing women all the time, even though the women he chased were those who wanted to be chased. That's not far different from women being told they deserve rape because they are generally promiscuous or wear promiscuous clothing. "Asking for it."

[Zorlon]

As he was sexually assaulted at knife point, no not really.

What i don't get is why people whine that he isn't so properly traumatized by and hateful of the experience as they would like him to be.

 

Different people react differently to different situations. That particular situation was annoying, but not a big deal, for Mat. That's all.

 

The WoT is a book about some various people dealing with a trying moment in their fictional world's history, not a manual on dealing with sexual aggression.

 

Not everybody is going to respond the way you think they ought. It makes for lousy reading when every character's response to every stimuli is the predictable formulaic stock attitude. Lousy and unbelievable.

 

That and, seriously, in a situation such as Mat's, it's really usually not as horrid an experience for men as for women.