Chapter 11

[TootThatHorn]

I enjoyed chapter 11. I enjoyed the bit about Tylin. Don't be a prude.

Hey Damer, glad to hear it. What were your favorite parts about it?

BTW how are you holding up waiting for AMoL?

 

EDIT:

Is there mention that the Midnight Towers in Seanchan are made of SG rock as well? Seems I want to remember that

No, you're thinking of the Black Tower.

 

Ya, I thought there might have been mention of it, but it could have been something someone else put forth in another thread.

[yoniy0]

You'd think the ogier could have told them - "It's not a song, it's the voice, silly." Or, "It starts in C minor, and here are the words."

They couldn't. At least, Loial has the talent and has therefore 'learned the Old Songs of Growing', but when asked about it he didn't know what they were talking about. And, having demonstrated his ability to them (since those are the only songs he knew), they didn't recognize it.

[thisguy]

You'd think the ogier could have told them - "It's not a song, it's the voice, silly." Or, "It starts in C minor, and here are the words."

They couldn't. At least, Loial has the talent and has therefore 'learned the Old Songs of Growing', but when asked about it he didn't know what they were talking about. And, having demonstrated his ability to them (since those are the only songs he knew), they didn't recognize it.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I may be remembering incorrectly, but I thought the Aiel had lost the song pretty soon after the breaking. When Rand walks through the terangreal at Rhuidean, he sees his ancestors come upon those ogier who are longing for the stedding. The Aiel feed them. Unless I have my timeline wrong - and I might - those ogier should know the song and could have told the Aiel.

[yoniy0]

Oh, well, that was after the schism between Aiel and Tutha'an (those weren't Jenn Aiel talking to the Ogier). Modern(ish) Aiel don't care that much about songs.

[Neophyte]

From The Shadow Rising, ch 26, Adan's PoV:

 

Sulwin stepped back, then held his ground with his companions. “No, Adan. We are supposed to find a place of safety, and some of us mean to do that. My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.”

 

“Sing?” Adan scoffed. “I have heard those old stories, too, that Aiel singing was a wondrous thing, but you know those old songs no more than I do. The songs are gone, and the old days are gone. We will not give up our duty to the Aes Sedai to chase after what is lost forever.” “Some of us will, Adan.” The others behind Sulwin nodded. “We mean to find that safe place. And the songs, too. We will!”

 

So, the original Aiel who split from the main group and eventually became the Tuatha'an knew that it wasn't a single mystical Song. They talk about "singing" and "songs." While they may not fully understand a Talent called that Lews Therin calls the "Voice," the belief in a single capital-S "Song" came in at some indeterminate time afterward.

 

Just for frame of reference, the Adan PoV here is the one immediately after (chronologically) the Jonai PoV in which they meet Ogier with the beginnings of the Longing. In the PoV with the Ogier, Adan is a young man.

[yoniy0]

Really? I thought there were Ogier with them during the Sharing of the Water. My mistake, then.

[thisguy]

From The Shadow Rising, ch 26, Adan's PoV:

 

Sulwin stepped back, then held his ground with his companions. “No, Adan. We are supposed to find a place of safety, and some of us mean to do that. My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.”

 

“Sing?” Adan scoffed. “I have heard those old stories, too, that Aiel singing was a wondrous thing, but you know those old songs no more than I do. The songs are gone, and the old days are gone. We will not give up our duty to the Aes Sedai to chase after what is lost forever.” “Some of us will, Adan.” The others behind Sulwin nodded. “We mean to find that safe place. And the songs, too. We will!”

 

So, the original Aiel who split from the main group and eventually became the Tuatha'an knew that it wasn't a single mystical Song. They talk about "singing" and "songs." While they may not fully understand a Talent called that Lews Therin calls the "Voice," the belief in a single capital-S "Song" came in at some indeterminate time afterward.

 

Just for frame of reference, the Adan PoV here is the one immediately after (chronologically) the Jonai PoV in which they meet Ogier with the beginnings of the Longing. In the PoV with the Ogier, Adan is a young man.

So, if they had just explained what it really was, things would be different. They could have just asked the ogier, and who better to ask. But, the books would be less fun then, Oh well....

[donk]

hmmmm, what a load of drivel I have read in the comments, rape sodomy and BS bashing.

 

Anyway,just thought I would drop my thoughts in. The chapter excerpt was really welcome and a superb treat to find. I enjoyed the story and wasn't bothered to subsequently find out the innkeeper and doorman were fanwank moments. (They both read absolutely fine to me, the Seanchan doorman didn't seem out of place, certainly mysterious if one wanted it to be that he had a heron marked blade, but after finding out who he was based on it made sense and needed no furthe examination in my mind.)

 

As to Matt's POV, well having heard how many people were upset at the previous two books portrayal of the character and that clouding my judgement on the rereads I actually think that this is about spot on for him. You can talk about all sorts of different aspects of the character but fundamentally when we last saw him his eye had been violently ripped out and that might just account for some of his inner monologue regarding liking Ebou Dar and his thoughts about Tylin. Realising one is mortal tends to adjust ones perspective. Don't forget we have heard endlessly how he remembered dying a thousand times but never embraced those memories, perhaps now he has accepted various things - like the mortal coil hits us all and is changing.

 

Some points not yet bought up from a story perspective that I think could be relevant:

 

1. Battle of Caemlyn - if this has happened and I would assume it has then is Olver dead? Matt might well be strongly affected by his and potentially other camp mates deaths, if he isn't now then I guess he soon will be.

 

2. I assume Matt made it to the FOM as whichever Ashaman was asked to return daily would likely have had a standing order to take Matt to Perrin (Wasn't Pips left with Perrin when he got gatewayed to TOG). In turn this means the 'plan' for the last battle has been set between the main protagonists, as Matt alludes to and I hypothesise:

.

a) Rand marching North (I bet with egwene and aes sedai, all the nations and aiel) to break the seals and fight, then Egs to rebuild.

b) Perrin sent to sort out the Blacktower? A stab in the dark, but Rand seems not to have the time or inlcination. Or defo marching with Rand if not at BT.

c) Matt gatewayed to just outside Ebou Dar and sent to bring Seanchan in to the battle - this means that he might never have got to Caemlyn nor heard any updates from there, we just do not know, but assuming Olver dies, then going back to Ebou Dar and thinking about Valan Luca et al would have prompted a memory about the ugly little sod in all certainty?

 

 

3. We know Tuon is alive and that Galgan is till playing games. We do NOT know where Galgan is however. Has he left for the White Tower on his assault already? I am sure Matt will follow assuming he has. This also puts Matt in the right place to get the Horn. Also Matt has a strong Aes Sedai ally at the tower in the two damane he saved (forgot their names) so we can assume they will come into play if it plays out like this.

 

I know a lot of this is disjointed rambling but the key things as I see it are no Olver reminiscence in POV means Matt does not know what has unfolded at Caemlyn. (Just had a thought, isn't there a quote from Matt when he goes to meet Elayne that the palace could be held against a horde of trollocs - or words to that effect?!?) I'll stop now before i get deeper down the garden path.

[Mulk]

A thought that just occurred to me: what if the raid hasn't gone off yet, and the result of Galgan's playing around with assassins (whether he means actual harm or not) is that Mat becomes the General of the Seanchan army? That would be REALLY interesting when they gate into TV.

[b3arz3rg3r]

1. Battle of Caemlyn - if this has happened and I would assume it has then is Olver dead? Matt might well be strongly affected by his and potentially other camp mates deaths, if he isn't now then I guess he soon will be.

 

I think if we put it to the vote more would think that Olver is standing on the roof of the palace drinking blood out of Reene Harfors hollowed out skull.

 

2. I assume Matt made it to the FOM as whichever Ashaman was asked to return daily would likely have had a standing order to take Matt to Perrin (Wasn't Pips left with Perrin when he got gatewayed to TOG). In turn this means the 'plan' for the last battle has been set between the main protagonists, as Matt alludes to and I hypothesise:

.

a) Rand marching North (I bet with egwene and aes sedai, all the nations and aiel) to break the seals and fight, then Egs to rebuild.

b) Perrin sent to sort out the Blacktower? A stab in the dark, but Rand seems not to have the time or inlcination. Or defo marching with Rand if not at BT.

c) Matt gatewayed to just outside Ebou Dar and sent to bring Seanchan in to the battle - this means that he might never have got to Caemlyn nor heard any updates from there, we just do not know, but assuming Olver dies, then going back to Ebou Dar and thinking about Valan Luca et al would have prompted a memory about the ugly little sod in all certainty?

 

Perrin isn't a smart choice to send against the Black Tower. It's going to take a channeller to take down a fortress of channellers. And at best a male channeller. Perrin would have everything that happened explained to him. If not Rand himself the only one who can lead the assault on the Black Tower is Logain. And Logain vs Taim would certainly make for an epic fight.

[thisguy]

1. Battle of Caemlyn - if this has happened and I would assume it has then is Olver dead? Matt might well be strongly affected by his and potentially other camp mates deaths, if he isn't now then I guess he soon will be.

 

I think if we put it to the vote more would think that Olver is standing on the roof of the palace drinking blood out of Reene Harfors hollowed out skull.

 

2. I assume Matt made it to the FOM as whichever Ashaman was asked to return daily would likely have had a standing order to take Matt to Perrin (Wasn't Pips left with Perrin when he got gatewayed to TOG). In turn this means the 'plan' for the last battle has been set between the main protagonists, as Matt alludes to and I hypothesise:

.

a) Rand marching North (I bet with egwene and aes sedai, all the nations and aiel) to break the seals and fight, then Egs to rebuild.

b) Perrin sent to sort out the Blacktower? A stab in the dark, but Rand seems not to have the time or inlcination. Or defo marching with Rand if not at BT.

c) Matt gatewayed to just outside Ebou Dar and sent to bring Seanchan in to the battle - this means that he might never have got to Caemlyn nor heard any updates from there, we just do not know, but assuming Olver dies, then going back to Ebou Dar and thinking about Valan Luca et al would have prompted a memory about the ugly little sod in all certainty?

 

Perrin isn't a smart choice to send against the Black Tower. It's going to take a channeller to take down a fortress of channellers. And at best a male channeller. Perrin would have everything that happened explained to him. If not Rand himself the only one who can lead the assault on the Black Tower is Logain. And Logain vs Taim would certainly make for an epic fight.

The Olver thing is hilarious.

 

I agree. Taim is Logain's opposite. Slayer is Perrin's. Ish v Rand. I believe Shaidar Haran. Etc.

 

edit to add: I believe Fain v Shaidar Haran. I just said Shaidar Haran above.

[donk]

Agree on both comments in respect of Logain, paticularly the ying yang shebang. I just cant see Perrin dropping into the ranks alongside Rand, we 'know' that he is going to be dealing with Slayer as his predominant arc in this book, I just cant work out from where and unfortunately this chapter gives no indication of what he is up to.

[yoniy0]

A Dreamspike is at the BT. Perrin has already expressed his intention to investigate. And Slayer is probably there anyways, guarding the thing.

[Neophyte]

A Dreamspike is at the BT. Perrin has already expressed his intention to investigate. And Slayer is probably there anyways, guarding the thing.

 

I really hope not. There is a lot to get through in AMoL ... we don't need Perrin vs. Slayer over a dreamspike, Round 2. I know the cover blurb says they're fighting again, and that's fine, but let's at least make it over something else this time. Like Perrin finally decides to get serious about killing the bloody man.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I want Perrin vs Slayer to happen at Shayol Ghul. Rand struggling to seal the bore, Slayer steps out of TAR and tries to backstab Rand and Perrin arrives in the nick of time to defend Rand. Especially if the Bore is a place where reality and TAR are one and the same. Perrin would be able to physically step into the Dream there like Slayer.

[ozimandias]

I see that many people have been disturbed by Matt's reframing of his time in ebou dar ... but I actually thought he enjoyed it at the time. I mean, he was dicing, hanging with Beslan, wooing girls, there was plenty of sneaking and deception, he was planning a big complicated heroic escape where he would get to save several women (one of his favorite things!), having power a bit of control over a group of aes sedai for once and yet still plenty to complain about... Beyond that, there are several points where it is clear that he enjoys Tylin quite a bit.

 

1. When she goes away from the palace on a tour of her future lands, he sleeps in her bed (Though the untrustworthy narrator that is his inner monologue denies that it is for old times' sake, its just because it was more comfortable)

2. He tries to convince her to come with him.

3. WH:"I am going to miss you" he said quietly as he pushed her beneath the edge of the bed. To his surprise, he realized that he really would.... Women could tangle a man in that maze before he knew it"

 

And it's not the first time he's rewritten a bit of his own history. I honestly think it's pretty spot on. But I understand if some people don't, and it can be hard to feel someone isnt getting your favorite character right. Hopefully when this is all in context it will work a little better for everyone. And also, sorry if I'm bringing back a topic that was already pretty calmed down, just wanted to add my two cents.

 

Edit: I wrote Mat to start with, but then scrolled up and was like, wait, these other people are saying Matt in this quote.... stupid peer pressure.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Mat = Matrim Cauthon

 

Matt = the guy who delivers my newspaper

[yoniy0]

Also, there's Theoryland's Matt Hatch. I think that's where most of the confusion comes from. Well, that and people who read the WoT translated to another language, or listen to the audiobooks.

[XoMeltdownoX]

Also, there's Theoryland's Matt Hatch. I think that's where most of the confusion comes from. Well, that and people who read the WoT translated to another language, or listen to the audiobooks.

Very good. I forgot about Matt Hatch.

[ozimandias]

I guess from my short time on this board I should have realized that an extra t would require at least 3 6 posts of analysis.

 

Edit: But seriously, sorry, I will not misspell Mat again. I honestly thought it was Mat and was convinced to change it by scrolling up and abandoning my own judgment. And I hope my joke was not taken too seriously, just thought it was funny and did not intend to make a statement on how outrageous anyone is to point it out (though I did wish someone commented on the content, but I guess that is what I get for not making a reasonable effort to be legible. =))

[thisguy]

I guess from my short time on this board I should have realized that an extra t would require at least 3 posts of analysis.

 

Lol

[XoMeltdownoX]

I guess from my short time on this board I should have realized that an extra t would require at least 3 posts of analysis.

Actually I saw 13 extra t's.

[Sid]

If I see people talking about Matt from this series I assume they mean Mattin Stepaneos of Illian, since he's the only character in the entire series with even a partial name match to those four letters. He seems to have a surprisingly big following here.

[yoniy0]

Yes, it's stupid, but it's also very natural. Reading post after post with bad spelling or unusual abbreviations is just jarring, particularly when you consider that everyone posting here can very easily google a name to make sure they've got the spelling right. We even politely ask that everyone makes a reasonable effort to insure their posts are legible in the site terms-of-use. Still, we've yet to ban someone for calling Matrim Matt....

 

Anyhow, from time to time, it's not at all surprising that someone would comment on the incorrect spelling.

[Suttree]

2. He tries to convince her to come with him.

 

Tylin? I don't recall that for some reason...