I don't think Cyndane is Lanfear

[CandymanGT-]

Hi. First discussion post so please bear with me :D

 

I hope I'm not retreading too much old ground but I did a quick search and didn't throw up anything.

 

I think that Cyndane is a red herring and that she is not Lanfear. My reasons are many.

 

1. Iirc there has been no direct confirmation of this link

 

2. The difference in their strength doesn't ring true to me. It has been suggested that the reduction of her power (if lanfear is Cyndane) was as a punishment for betraying the Dark One with her plans to overthrow him (along with the mindtrap that Moridin holds). But Asmodean died the final death (confirmed) for a lesser betrayal. So if the dark one knows of her planned mutinee she got off darned lightly and if not there's no reason to reduce her power.

 

3. We know as of KoD that Moirane is not dead. now as I remember it she and Lanfear both fell through the portal before it melted. Since Moirane survived that there is no reason to think Lanfear did not

 

4. And the most important reason last. I don't want her to be dead!

 

 

What thoughts does anyone else have on this? I haven't read the relevant parts of the books in quite some time so I may be well off the money.

[Shadowgamer]

Interesting thoughts. I never bothered to look at it that way. I agree with the last reason the most, nobody really wanted to see her dead.

[Luckers]

Cyndane is Lanfear, this is directly proven in Winter's Heart by her thoughts as she conciders attacking Rand. Specifically, she thinks of him as Lews therin, refers to her time spent imprisoned amongst the Eelfinn and Aelfinn, and remembers previous encounters of lanfear and Rand as if they were her own.

 

The reduction of her power resulted in her being severed from the True Source when she fell through the red door and was later healed by a woman. Specifically, two women drawing as much of the power as they could fell through a ter'angreal that subsequently exploded... given the dangerous nature of ter'angreal it seems extremely unlikely that both were not burned out. Moreover there is direct evidence of this - specifically two effects we have only ever seen be caused by being severed from the one power (the severing of Lans bond without Moiraine dying, and Cyndanes decreased strength) as well as the fact that we have seen channelers utilize the one power successfully against the Finns, so it seems unlikely that the Finns could hold two powerful channelers who had on them two angreal.

 

Endgame. Cyndane is Lanfear.

[CandymanGT-]

Cheers for the input :)

 

she thinks of him as Lews therin,

Lots of people knew Lews Therin in the AOL

 

refers to her time spent imprisoned amongst the Eelfinn and Aelfinn,

Again, not proof

 

and remembers previous encounters of lanfear and Rand as if they were her own.

Admittedly quite damming evidence. I'll have to do some re-reading

 

The reduction of her power resulted in her being severed from the True Source when she fell through the red door and was later healed by a woman.

 

personally this explanation doesn't wash with me. There are too many provisos and ifs and buts.

 

I'm sure there's gonna be an axplanation but I sure hope it's better than the "healed by a woman" theory that's going around.

 

 

Any more thoughts. I'm not looking to be argumentative. I just love playing devil's advocate (usually gets me in trouble :lol:)

[RobertAlexWillis]

From Cyndane's POV in Winter's Heart, chapter 35 With the Choedan Kal:

 

She could feel it. That much of saidar being drawn to one spot was a beacon that any woman in the world who could channel would feel and locate. So he had found a woman to use the other access key. She would have faces the Great Lord - faced the Creator! - with him. She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her!

 

And from The Shadow Rising, chapter 9 Decisions (Rand's POV, Lanfear speaking)

 

"You and I can rule the world together under the Great Lord forever." Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. "Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, on that I can. Far greater than that sword [Callandor]. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even ... the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!"

 

There is no possible way that is anyone but Lanfear. Those are specific plans Lanfear prosposed to Rand. And her feelings for him are, in the books, almost proverbial. Plus everything Luckers said is right on as well. As Luckers clearly said, Cyndane is Lanfear. Period.

[CandymanGT-]

Or so it would seem :lol:

 

Cheers for the quotes. Those are the bits I coudn't remember.

 

 

 

I still don't like the "healed by a woman" thing. It's cheesy as hell.

[Luckers]

How many Forsaken do we know who were held by the Aelfinn and Eelfinn? Or refer to Rand specifically as Lews Therin? Who display the same mannerisms as Lanfear? Who speak knowledgeably of the Choedan Kal, and Rand's possession of them, something only Lanfear amongst the Forsaken know? Who thinks on things that Lanfear did with Rand possessively? Who strives for height, as if she were once tall?

 

Previcate between the individual points and you may be able to wrangle the idea that none are absolute proof (though personally i disagree, certain points above are rock-solid, but thats a matter of opinion i suppose), the cumulative argument however IS absolute.

 

And as Lanfear IS Cyndane, somewhere along the way she decreased in strength. Suggesting the Dark One did it is illogical... decreasing her in strength serves only to weaken a tool. Yes, he would have punished her, but there were many punishments that do not weaken her use, and serve equally well... as indeed he implements. I'm speaking of the mindtrap... as effective a punishment, not to mention a method of ensuring her absolute obedience as said tool, as your going to find. Weaking her strength at that stage is not only over-kill, its counter-productive. And we have seen that the Dark One does indeed appreciate the tactical advantage the strength of his Chosen represents.

 

Beyond that, the strength of the evidence suggesting both Lanfear and Moiraine were severed suggests it being beyond the Dark Ones perview anyway. We have not only never seen the Dark One show any form of ability to heal severed channelers, the ongoing fear of the Forsaken of being severed suggests that they, at the least, do not think it possible. Moreover, it makes a lot of sense for the Dark One to call on one of the Rebels to do the healing anyway... why do the work when you have minions who can do it.

 

One dream message to Aran'gar and a Black Sister travels to Shayoul Ghoul to do the healing... easy as can be.

[Kadere]

This is the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen.

[Thor]

Hi. First discussion post so please bear with me :D

 

I hope I'm not retreading too much old ground but I did a quick search and didn't throw up anything.

 

I think that Cyndane is a red herring and that she is not Lanfear. My reasons are many.

 

1. Iirc there has been no direct confirmation of this link

 

2. The difference in their strength doesn't ring true to me. It has been suggested that the reduction of her power (if lanfear is Cyndane) was as a punishment for betraying the Dark One with her plans to overthrow him (along with the mindtrap that Moridin holds). But Asmodean died the final death (confirmed) for a lesser betrayal. So if the dark one knows of her planned mutinee she got off darned lightly and if not there's no reason to reduce her power.

 

3. We know as of KoD that Moirane is not dead. now as I remember it she and Lanfear both fell through the portal before it melted. Since Moirane survived that there is no reason to think Lanfear did not

 

4. And the most important reason last. I don't want her to be dead!

 

 

What thoughts does anyone else have on this? I haven't read the relevant parts of the books in quite some time so I may be well off the money.

 

Haha you are so going to get flamed.

[racha_giurgiu]

I am laughing so hard right now at Thor's post. People at work are looking at me funny. LOL!

[yolindamo]

ok...

 

Whilst I agree it is quite obvious that Cyndane is in fact Lanfear this is what I dont quite understand about this whole situation.

 

1. Why is Lanfear out and Morianne not? Did someone go get her? Have they said and I am forgetting something?

 

2. Why did falling through the doorway severe Lan's bond with Morianne when she obviously did not die? I thought only death could severe the bond.

 

The second one is a bit off topic, I was just wondering.

[algspkr]

ok...

 

Whilst I agree it is quite obvious that Cyndane is in fact Lanfear this is what I dont quite understand about this whole situation.

 

1. Why is Lanfear out and Morianne not? Did someone go get her? Have they said and I am forgetting something?

 

2. Why did falling through the doorway severe Lan's bond with Morianne when she obviously did not die? I thought only death could severe the bond.

 

The second one is a bit off topic, I was just wondering.

I am guessing that she tried to escape on her own and was killed by the Finns.

[Kadere]

There's no clear answer to those questions. It could be that since Lanfear was associated with the Dark One it automatically killed her, Moiriane's bond may have broken because the gate melted. We don't know. Those answers will all come in the next book.

 

What we DO know is that Cydane is the reincarnation of Lanfear, that she's been made weaker after being released, and that Moiriane must have made some deal to be left inside alive until Mat could get her out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Why is Lanfear out and Morianne not? Did someone go get her? Have they said and I am forgetting something?

 

Lanfear got out because she died. Thats a pretty much universal exit ticket. After she died, the Dark One snatched her soul and put it in a nwe body, one that was not in 'Finn-land.

 

Why did falling through the doorway severe Lan's bond with Morianne when she obviously did not die? I thought only death could severe the bond.

 

Being burned out or stilled has the same effect on the bond as death.

[Trib4l]

There's no clear proof that she was healed by a woman either, unless I missed one of RJ's blogs or something in the books.

[CandymanGT-]

Haha you are so going to get flamed.

 

Why? I don't get it. I was asking questions to which I have now been given answers.

 

What I also got for free was a whole bunch of attitude. nice welcome chaps :roll:

 

 

I have no idea why this is the "most rediculous arguement ever seen". I've seen a lot wierder and don't think this kind of response is warranted. get some perspective peeps please.

[yolindamo]

So does that mean that she was stilled or burned out? I mean that is a possiblity right? If not she is not dead and is technically just seperated from Lan by a long distance. This would not severe the bond.

[Kadere]

We don't know. Mat has yet to go in and get her. She probably is stilled. In which case an Ash'man could probably heal her.

[V1zharan]

I am completely against Cyndane being Lanfear, I'll admit, there is no arguing with the POV evidence, but I still am not a believer.

-Lanfear, being the most powerful of the female Chosen, likely would not have been killed by the Finns trying to escape, she would have burned them to a crisp and taken a nice load on their ashes.

-I would think that Lanfear would have tried Traveling or Skimming first thing, or maybe second.(first being attempting to deal with Moraine) If that didn't work, Lanfear just doesn't seem the type to lose her cool and go flinging the Power around, then allowing herself to be killed.

-There is no evidence that Lanfear and Moraine were stilled, only theory. It's said many times over that Aes Sedai fear stilling worse than death, Moraine knew very well what would happen if she tackled Lanfear into the doorway. Yeah, she'd be saving Rand, but I have a hard time believing she would willingly still herself.

-If they indeed were stilled, don't you think the Dark One would have some idea that having a female Heal Lanfear would reduce the strength of his most powerful female tool? Also, anyone saying Lanfear was stilled and healed by a woman...do you REALLY think the Dark One is capable of protecting a male channeler from the taint, capable of taking a soul of a dead person and relocating it into another body, but he is incapable of returning someone to their full strength after they're severed?

-Moraine didn't die, everyone knows that, so if she didn't die, why the hell would the most powerful female Chosen die? Unless you want to try saying Moraine killed Lanfear after they got through the doorway, but that would not only be theory, it would be unlikely to the point of near impossibility, and just plain stupid.

-Lastly, and something I see as evidence just as strong as the POV evidence, it never says ANYWHERE in the books, nor even implies it save for the POV of Cyndane, that Cyndane is Lanfear. Also, as far as we know, the other Chosen haven't even considered that Cyndane is Lanfear except for Graendal comparing Cyndane's strength to Lanfear, which right there seems to make Graendal rule out the possibility of those two being one and the same.

 

~V1zharan~

[CowardsLiveLonger]

Even the stilling scene isnt rock solid evidence!

She always refers to the person as 'she' for all we know she could be speaking of someone else!

I'm not supporting either theory as I'm not sure myself but the main piece of evidence for one side doesnt have to mean she's refering to herself!

[CandymanGT-]

I'm currently wracking my brain trying to think of any way to discount the POV evidence but coming up blank. Maybe Cyndane is a crazy person who thinks she is Lanfear (clutching at straws much :D)

 

I'd dearly love Lanfear to be still alive because she was cool, but I guess that realistically her plot purpose has been served. She was there to tempt Rand to the dark one and failed totally. To have her turn up and try again would be retreading old ground and there is too much new stuff to get through in the final book to start doing that.

 

Shame really.

[schneb]

-There is no evidence that Lanfear and Moraine were stilled, only theory. It's said many times over that Aes Sedai fear stilling worse than death, Moraine knew very well what would happen if she tackled Lanfear into the doorway. Yeah, she'd be saving Rand, but I have a hard time believing she would willingly still herself.

-If they indeed were stilled, don't you think the Dark One would have some idea that having a female Heal Lanfear would reduce the strength of his most powerful female tool? Also, anyone saying Lanfear was stilled and healed by a woman...do you REALLY think the Dark One is capable of protecting a male channeler from the taint, capable of taking a soul of a dead person and relocating it into another body, but he is incapable of returning someone to their full strength after they're severed?

 

~V1zharan~

 

Moiraine was of the Blue Ajah, blues are about causes. This is a cause that she new was more important to the world than she herself was. The sacrifice was the only thing she could do.

 

Second point, Why would the DO know that cross gender healing is more effective for stilled channelers? The DO doesn't channel, and his minions that do channel didn't even think that healing a stilled person was possible until Nyn figured it out. Even after Nyn figured out how to heal stilling, they didn't know about the cross gender possibilities until Damer was experimenting on the Aes Sedai stilled at Dumai Wells.

[V1zharan]

The way I figured it was, the Dark One is *almost* a match for the Creator, so I figured he'd have access to knownledge unknown to mere humans, I realize that "evidence" takes a little bit of inventing on my part to give the Dark One that knowledge, but either way, anyone who sits there for a little bit can puzzle out that the female healing theory is just another bogus theory.

 

~V1zharan~

[Kadere]

Why would Moiriane have a hard time stilling herself in order to save the Dragon Reborn? Especially when she went through the arches and knows that that is the only thing she could do in order for the Light to win?

 

And the DO knowingly punished Lanfear by decreasing her power for betraying him and trying to instill Rand and herself with all of the power. Thus why Cydane means "Last Chance." He's pissed at her.

[V1zharan]

I thought we already had this figured out...going along with the "Cyndane is Lanfear" theory for the sake of argument, The Dark One punished Lanfear enough by trapping her mind and giving it to Moridin, that was to ensure obedience, and punish her, he has no reason to weaken his most powerful female tool. A blacksmith doesn't damage his tools if he is disatisfied with what he made using them, the Dark One won't go and weaken his tool just because it did something he didn't like, Ba'alzamon just isn't that stupid.

 

~V1zharan~

 

EDIT:I failed to address the whole, Moraine being willing to still herself, part. I will admit, that wasn't the best piece of evidence to throw in there, I guess it's understandable she would willingly still herself for the sake of the world. Not saying I agree that she has been stilled, I still am against that theory, but I will admit, Moraine stilling herself is understandable.