I don't think Cyndane is Lanfear

[Kadere]

Fine, then he left her that weak as punishment for trying to sabotage him. Traitors don't go unpunished, her plan was a hell of a lot worse then Mogehidan's.

[V1zharan]

Once again...The Dark One did NOT weaken Lanfear, not only do we not know if it is possible to weaken someone, we know it's possible to sever someone, we know it's possible to heal someone, but we don't if it's possible to partially heal being severed, or to weaken someones strength. Even if it is possible, I think most logical people (that is not an intended insult) would agree that being pretty much completely in control of another person is quite a harsh punishment, and is guaranteed to make sure she won't rebel, or even think of rebelling for that matter.

 

~V1zharan~

[Luckers]

Actually, given the lack of presense of the Creator in the series, as well as the nature of the wheel serving to keep the dark one out id suggest that the Dark One is more powerful then the Creator. To me the entire set up reeks of the Creator being besieged in his fortress by the Dark One. In any case the Dark One is certainly the aggressor, which implies strength.

 

It's very easy, i suppose, given the dualistic nature of the the series to look at the Creator and Dark One in God v. Satan paradigms, but there is nothing in the series itself that suggests the Dark One is any way weaker (note: he wasn't actually imprisoned, he was locked out. Building a wall around yourself does not imply being stronger then the one you built it to keep out.)

 

There is no evidence that Lanfear and Moraine were stilled, only theory.

 

Well thats just outright wrong. We have two effects that, to date, we have only seen by stilling (or in the case of one, death. Since we know absolutely Moiraine didn't die, that leaves stilling). Three effects, if you count the fact that Moiraine and Lanfear should have both been able to channel there way out of Finnland (Lanfear certainly should have, she actually knows of the Finn). At the very least the Finns should not have been able to contain or imprison either, and Moiraines letter as well as Cyndanes POV make it obvious that both occured.

 

Yes, it could be argued that an unknown third cause for the first two pieces of evidence exists... there is no evidence suggesting it doesn't, but when various pieces of evidence all speak to a viable, existing cause, then they ARE evidentiary of that cause. Claiming that the severing of Lan's bond and the decrease in Lanfears power, both effects of being severed from the Power, and the subsequent fact that the Finns were able to hold those two classifies as evidence. Strong evidence.

 

When you add it to the fact that this came about as a result of two strong women in contest channeling through an angreal they were sharing fell through a ter'angreal that subsequently exploded... well given the amount of warning about the danger of channeling near ter'angreal, and the fact that their channeling did something that caused the ter'angreal to explode... well, frankly id find it incongruent if they WEREN'T severed.

 

It's said many times over that Aes Sedai fear stilling worse than death, Moraine knew very well what would happen if she tackled Lanfear into the doorway. Yeah, she'd be saving Rand, but I have a hard time believing she would willingly still herself.

 

Perhaps she knew, perhaps she didn't. Given the rest of what Moiraine resigned herself to i really don't see an argument either way. Moiraine and Suine have been risking being stilled since they set out on this endevour. They knew that. They also knew that their mission was more important then their lives, or their ability to channel. She wouldn't willingly still herself, but if that was the price for taking out Lanfear and saving Rand (and therefore the world) she would accept it. Again, assuming she did know, which she very possibly didn't.

 

Take what you want, and pay for it.

 

If they indeed were stilled, don't you think the Dark One would have some idea that having a female Heal Lanfear would reduce the strength of his most powerful female tool? Also, anyone saying Lanfear was stilled and healed by a woman...do you REALLY think the Dark One is capable of protecting a male channeler from the taint, capable of taking a soul of a dead person and relocating it into another body, but he is incapable of returning someone to their full strength after they're severed?

 

Very possibly. The first two are functions of his nature... he made the taint, and his power over souls comes from pre-established connections. Certainly the evidence suggests he does not have the ability to influence a channelers strength, or heal them when they've been severed. Certainly we know that he has NEVER done so in the past.

 

Meanwhile, even if he does have that power... why use it when you can have a minion do the job for you? This was just after the ability to heal being severed had been discovered. Its possible he didn't even know it would leave Lanfear weaker.

 

-Lanfear, being the most powerful of the female Chosen, likely would not have been killed by the Finns trying to escape, she would have burned them to a crisp and taken a nice load on their ashes.

 

Yes... she would have. So why isn't Lanfear running around now, free? She was severed when she fell through the doorway.

 

-Lastly, and something I see as evidence just as strong as the POV evidence, it never says ANYWHERE in the books, nor even implies it save for the POV of Cyndane, that Cyndane is Lanfear. Also, as far as we know, the other Chosen haven't even considered that Cyndane is Lanfear except for Graendal comparing Cyndane's strength to Lanfear, which right there seems to make Graendal rule out the possibility of those two being one and the same.

 

In case you've forgotten buddy, the POV IS in the books. Beyond that Cyndane is of the Age of Legends, and all other forsaken are accounted for. There you go, evidence other then the POV... And Graendal dismissing her because she has less strength? Of course she did. Graendal does know that Lanfear was severed and healed. Of course the depleted strength would imply its not Lanfear to her... doesn't mean she's right.

 

I'm sorry... but your argument strikes me as foolish... you argue that because other then the POV (which shows Cyndane to be Lanfear) there is no evidence on who Cyndane is, other then that she is of the Age of Legends (and therefore Lanfear)...

 

There's no clear proof that she was healed by a woman either, unless I missed one of RJ's blogs or something in the books.

 

Her depleted strength is what suggests she was healed by a woman.

[V1zharan]

Quote:

It's said many times over that Aes Sedai fear stilling worse than death, Moraine knew very well what would happen if she tackled Lanfear into the doorway. Yeah, she'd be saving Rand, but I have a hard time believing she would willingly still herself.

 

 

 

Perhaps she knew, perhaps she didn't. Given the rest of what Moiraine resigned herself to i really don't see an argument either way. Moiraine and Suine have been risking being stilled since they set out on this endevour. They knew that. They also knew that their mission was more important then their lives, or their ability to channel. She wouldn't willingly still herself, but if that was the price for taking out Lanfear and saving Rand (and therefore the world) she would accept it. Again, assuming she did know, which she very possibly didn't.

 

If you wrote this up while I corrected myself, I apologize, but I DID admit I was wrong on the point of Moraine not giving up being able to channel to save Rand.

 

The Dark One is in no way more powerful than The Creator, I would say if the Creator isn't more powerful, they are equal, otherwise the Dark One would have long since broken out of his prison, and wouldn't need mere mortals to help him escape.

 

Well thats just outright wrong.

 

If anything that statement itself is outright wrong. The breaking of the bond is unexplained, and it IS known that stilling and death will sever that bond, but it still doesn't say those are the only causes. Info on Finnland is widely unable to be found, along with their powers. Going on that note, the Finns very well might be able to do something to stop or protect against channeling. They gave Matt a ter'angreal that protected from channeling, maybe they have their own ter'angreals like that, or maybe it's like Far Madding.

Bottom line, there are too many ifs, there are too many maybe's for anyone to be certain. There are likely explanations pointing to Cyndane being Lanfear, while there is also lack of evidence. There are, if not theories, explanations as to why Cyndane ISN'T Lanfear, while there is, also, lack of evidence. We can go back and forth until the new book comes out around '08, we can insult eachother, belittle eachothers opinions and intelligence, we can pit "evidence" against "evidence", but until RJ tells us, we simply do not know if they are the same person or not, and until RJ DOES tell us, either opinion could be wrong. There are just too many possibilites, too much of a lack of rock-solid evidence to say for sure, that Cyndane is, or isn't Lanfear.So while I believe they aren't the same person, I leave room for the possibility that I may be wrong, something you obviously don't.

 

~V1zharan~

[chuckievi]

note: he wasn't actually imprisoned, he was locked out

 

Curious, where'd you get that from?

 

 

I've always viewed the DO as being inferior to the Creator, thus enabling the Creator to inprision him. Also, if infact Rand manages to fix the hole in the DOs prision, wouldn't that suggest that the DO is not all powerful, as he was locked in (or out) by a mere human?

[Kadere]

Let's go with Cydane not being Lanfear, just for arguments sake. How does she know Lews Therin? Was she an original Forsaken? Is she new? How does she account for being with Finns for a time? Why's her name "Last Chance"? Why's she owned by Moridin? Why does she think about how she had the same plan with the Chadon Khal with Rand? Why does she remember being stronger?

 

If she isn't Lanfear, who the hell is she?

[Luckers]

She's Santa. The Dark One took offence to the jolly fat bastard, and took action. And so he should!

[Kadere]

I should have figured!

[V1zharan]

I'm sticking to what I spent half of my last post saying, no matter how much we argue, there is no right or wrong answer, short of saying Cyndane is Bela or some other random person/animal/object, because we just don't know for sure. Until RJ puts in someone specifically referring to Cyndane as being Lanfear and knowing for certain that they are right, or until Cyndane refers to herself as Lanfear or something else extremely specific, we just don't know for certain.

 

~V1zharan~

[algspkr]

Actually, given the lack of presense of the Creator in the series, as well as the nature of the wheel serving to keep the dark one out id suggest that the Dark One is more powerful then the Creator. To me the entire set up reeks of the Creator being besieged in his fortress by the Dark One. In any case the Dark One is certainly the aggressor, which implies strength.

Luckers I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I believe that the Creator has not played a mojor roll because he does not care too much what happens. He gave the world the Dragon, and a "wheel" that would work to maintain balance between good and evil. The Creator just occasionally nudges the hope he gave the world when needed (the voice in Rand's head at TEotW). The Dark One knows this, and so knows that he can opperate with impunity. He knows his odds of winning are worse than winning the lottery, but he has all of eternity to play.

[chuckievi]

I'm sticking to what I spent half of my last post saying, no matter how much we argue, there is no right or wrong answer, short of saying Cyndane is Bela or some other random person/animal/object, because we just don't know for sure. Until RJ puts in someone specifically referring to Cyndane as being Lanfear and knowing for certain that they are right, or until Cyndane refers to herself as Lanfear or something else extremely specific, we just don't know for certain.

 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. There is tons of good evidence to support the Lanfear = Cyndane idea. You are just going Bobtdwarf style and ignoring it all :)

[Luckers]

Mmm. The absense of an absolute answer does not make it an even playing field. The evidence supporting Lanfear as Cyndane is considerable, and the lack of some expositionary character going "Oh my, Cyndane is Lanfear" doesn't negate it, nor make other theories any more likely.

 

Luckers I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I believe that the Creator has not played a mojor roll because he does not care too much what happens. He gave the world the Dragon, and a "wheel" that would work to maintain balance between good and evil. The Creator just occasionally nudges the hope he gave the world when needed (the voice in Rand's head at TEotW). The Dark One knows this, and so knows that he can opperate with impunity. He knows his odds of winning are worse than winning the lottery, but he has all of eternity to play.

 

My point that at this stage is that its all conjecture. At this moment all we know is that the Creator is seemingly unwilling to engage in a direct confrontation with the Dark One, whilst the Dark One is seemingly agressively persueing that end. Moreover the nature of the wheel is not to imprison the dark one, but to lock him out.

 

The deductions i gain from this is that the Dark One is stronger. We build walls to protect us from that which is stronger, and the Dark Ones agrressive assault suggests he thinks this is the case too.

[chuckievi]

True, but we also build walls to protect us from weaker, trivial things that we just don't like dealing with on a daily basis. Personally I don't think there is enough evidence to go either way, but if the DO is stronger than the Creator, I don't see how the Bore is ever going to be fixed.

[Kadere]

I love how you don't answer any one of my obvious questoins and stick with "maybe" argument.

[Thor]

I don't see some newbie channeler knowing anything about the Choedan Kal. Cyndane is Lanfear, face it.

[yolindamo]

I was under the impression that even with cross-gender healing there was always some weakening in strength after being healed from stilling. Am I wrong?

 

Anyway, if Cyndane is Lanfear, a whole heck of a lot more than just being stilled and healed happened to her. She died and got reincarnated into a new body. As far as I know, this is the only instance in the books where one of the Forsaken who has been given a do over was possibly stilled before they died.

 

Edit--This is from the WOT wiki

 

"Aginor was burned to ashes by trying to handle too much of the One Power, something Rand never revealed to anyone else."

 

So does that mean he was burned out which would have the same affect as stilling?

 

Do the 'gars have a difference in power? Maybe it is not connected to being healed. Maybe if you are reincarnated you dont have to be healed?

 

I mean, I know theory is that channelling is connected to the soul and not the body, but we dont know for sure. If you are one of the souls that is connected to the wheel and spun out over and over again and you are a channeller and you get stilled in one life will you be unable to channel in the next? Does being reborn fix it?

 

Is being reborn and spun out of the wheel the same in effect as being reincarnated by the DO?

 

Does anyone see how what I am saying relates to the topic?

[RobertAlexWillis]

I was under the impression that even with cross-gender healing there was always some weakening in strength after being healed from stilling. Am I wrong?

 

Yes. Properly done cross-gender Healing is completely effective, meaning that the one being Healed is returned to his/her total former strength.

 

Do the 'gars have a difference in power? Maybe it is not connected to being healed. Maybe if you are reincarnated you dont have to be healed?

 

As far as we are told, no, and if they were, it would almost certainly have been mentioned, either by one of them, or by one of the other Forsaken.

 

I mean, I know theory is that channelling is connected to the soul and not the body, but we dont know for sure. If you are one of the souls that is connected to the wheel and spun out over and over again and you are a channeller and you get stilled in one life will you be unable to channel in the next? Does being reborn fix it?

 

Is being reborn and spun out of the wheel the same in effect as being reincarnated by the DO?

 

Does anyone see how what I am saying relates to the topic?

 

Actually, Jordan said it's both soul and body. The genetic component seems to be like an "on/off" switch, and the soul component seems to determine strength and Power-gender. So, if your soul can channel, and you're born into an era where the ability is in the gene pool, yes, you'll probably be able to channel. However, Jordan has implied that a channel-capable soul could be born into a non-channeling era, and therefore a non-channeling body. In that case, he/she would be unable to channel.

 

The DO's transmigration process is wholly different from the Wheel's rebirth process. Transmigration (like what has been happening to the Forsaken) preserves the personality intact, and must happen in a short period of time following death (so for example a channeler could not be transmigrated into an era with no channelers). For that reason, the only requirement would seem to be that the soul be placed into a body with the genetic "on/off" component, and the soul takes care of the rest.

 

Being "burned out" or "stilled" happens on a purely soul-based level. Normal Delving of such a person reveals no physical trauma, so the genetic "on/off" component is still intact. Also, the act of severing someone is one of the things that involves the use of pure Spirit. Therefore, it is logical that a "burned out" effect on a soul would be carried with that soul through a transmigration. Because the Wheel completely "resets" each soul that reborn, however, (previous memories, personality, etc, wiped clean) it is unlikely that being "burned out" in a previous life would last through rebirth on the Wheel.

 

Therefore, if Lanfear was "burned out" by the melting of the ter'angreal doorway (a thoroughly likely probability) then the damage to her soul would have been transmigrated into her new body "Cyndane". Since the damage is still there, it could be Healed in the same way as in any other "burned out" person. Since the Shadow had access to the female procedure for Healing stilling (Moghedien was in Salidar when Nynaeve Healed Siuan and Leane) but not the male method (which Damer is not reported to have done until 3 books later) at the time that Cyndane would have been transmigrated, she would have been Healed by a woman, bringing her short of her previous strength.

 

So, yes, I think I see how your questions relate to the topic.

 

Sources available on request. :D

[Thor]

You keep insisting that Lanfear was stilled then healed by a woman.

 

FIne. Then let me ask, who do you think was the spy among the Salidar Aes Sedai to learn the healing? My bet is on Sheriam, since she was getting beaten up by Halima (or someone).

[RobertAlexWillis]

You keep insisting that Lanfear was stilled then healed by a woman.

 

Actually, I was very careful to make it conditional, although I do think that is what happened, since that is the only way we have ever seen anyone strength in the Power reduced, and in all the other cases of transmigration where it didn't happen.

 

 

FIne. Then let me ask, who do you think was the spy among the Salidar Aes Sedai to learn the healing? My bet is on Sheriam, since she was getting beaten up by Halima (or someone).

 

Either Moghedien or Delana Sedai. Moghedien's only skill is spying, and she may have managed to find it out, since she was in Salidar when Nynaeve was showing the other what she had done. If not Moghedien, then Delana, a known Black Sister and a Sitter, would certainly have been able to insinuate herself into the demonstration or an explanation, and could have reported it.

[yolindamo]

So what about Aginor? He was "burned to ashes by trying to handle too much of the One Power" so does that mean he was also burned out? We have no evidence that his transmigration affected his strength in the power. Why Lanfear but not Anginor?

[yolindamo]

Sources available on request.

 

 

 

Robert, did you remember that you are talking to an English teacher?

[Thor]

Aginor was hardly in the physical shape to channel anyways. It still seems unclear to me how Rand held him off.

 

And as I said (on this or another thread), the biggest OD was that of LTT, and he certainly didn't burn out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Robert, did you remember that you are talking to an English teacher?

 

Hehehe ... actually, I did remember that you are a teacher, I was just too lazy to do footnotes. I could though ... each point cant be supported from either the text or an RJ blog statement. I just hope you won't want me to list all of them, since you're familiar with the stories yourself. I can though.

[schneb]

So what about Aginor? He was "burned to ashes by trying to handle too much of the One Power" so does that mean he was also burned out? We have no evidence that his transmigration affected his strength in the power. Why Lanfear but not Anginor?

 

Even if he was burnt out, whe have the cross gender healing working here. He's a male, the have the female healing method. But, I don't think he was burnt out because he makes his return before the healing was discovered.

[yolindamo]

I guess I can forgive it since I am familiar with your source material. Anyway, I always know you will have the answer to any question I post. I appriciate it.