So a thought came to me...

[Suttree]

CoT is a book that is importamt to read the first time and if you are trying to look for clues. if you are on a speed reread of the series most can be safely skipped. while PoD is also the first half of a book, it gets better on subsequent rereads. CoT gets more frustrating

 

tPoD has some of the best writing in the entire series. The Damona Mountain campaign against the Seanchan, particularly the Rand/LTT dialogue is just stellar.

[driedraspberry]

CoT is a book that is importamt to read the first time and if you are trying to look for clues. if you are on a speed reread of the series most can be safely skipped. while PoD is also the first half of a book, it gets better on subsequent rereads. CoT gets more frustrating

 

tPoD has some of the best writing in the entire series. The Damona Mountain campaign against the Seanchan, particularly the Rand/LTT dialogue is just stellar.

 

I agree, it started off a bit slow, but by the end I was wholly satisfied. There were quite a few brilliant scenes in there. Of course, having had WH at hand, I didn't matter to me that it was part I.

 

I'm glad I stopped reading WoT when I did. I honestly can't imagine how annoying it must've been to wait a few years, get CoT, then have to wait some more before KoD. And yet, all the same, CoT was the first book in the series I had trouble getting through. Mat and Tuon kept me in the game.

[thisguy]

You know, I have my gripes about the stories. The biggest one is that whoever edited books 1-3 stunk big time. In all three books the word "further" is used for both further and farther. There are about 100-200 pages somewhere in the middle of book one where farther is used where it should be. Book 4 the problem is fixed.

 

Yes, some of the explanation gets tedious but the guy wrote a HUGE story where each book came out one or more years apart. Certain things were written over and over as a refresher, I believe. I vaguely remember thinking not much happened in CoT. And, there are certain story lines I found tedious - Morgase... blagh. Part of Perrin's (even though, I personally love the character). Mat's started out just annoying - he was a total d#@%, and not a funny or fun one. But, the tale is truly epic and I, basically, think RJ did a fantastic job.

[Glyphwright]

Crossroads of Twilight is only the first half of a single story that was too big to fit into a single volume. The Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart should also be treated as a pair. Considering CoT as a standalone is pointless.

That would imply CoT has the first half of a story, which is continued in KoD. It doesn't. It has no story. The summary you yourself posted shows that. At best, it adds one more thing to Egwene's capture - Alviarin's fall from Elaida's grace (which is quite baffling, because we never find out what Alviarin was doing on Tremalking of all places for a full month, and why the Forsaken would send her there). Everything else is characters reaffirming things we already know, delaying things that need to happen, and engaging in events so minor they should have simply been mentioned in passing. Filler.

 

The thought that books need to be bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-BANG (constant plot gratification) is just plain laughable, though.

The thought there are only two extremes - no plot, and constant plot gratification (whatever you mean by that) is laughable.

 

CoT is set up and a novel focused on characters

Except that it has no set up and no characters, as well as no plot, the story in KoD continues seamlessly from Winter's Heart.

 

 

 

LoC+aCoS can basically be viewed as one book.

 

aPoD+WH can basically be viewed as one book.

 

CoT+KoD can be basically viewed as one book.

Or, you know, they can be viewed as six separate books. Which is what they are.

[Morsker]

RJ's stated reason for not wanting to split the book was that he felt that he couldn't write two decent novels out of it. He could write one coherent book and one incoherent book, or two semi-coherent books, but not two coherent books.

 

Ok, that makes a lot of sense to me. I also think splitting it in two would've only gotten two semi-coherent books. I just don't see what the big deal is there, since a lot of the books in the series were already a long way from being coherent novels. It's the power of the best scenes that's always been important in WoT, not the coherence of the story.

 

Also, saying the only thing that happens in CoT is Egwene getting captured is a ludicrous exaggeration.

 

I don't think people who say it are exaggerating, only mistaken. It's a good first go at criticizing what went wrong with CoT. It's half a book, the plot structure is a mistake, and it contains too great a proportion of subplots that are far removed from the struggle against the Shadow.

[Clouded]

I don't think people who say it are exaggerating, only mistaken. It's a good first go at criticizing what went wrong with CoT. It's half a book, the plot structure is a mistake, and it contains too great a proportion of subplots that are far removed from the struggle against the Shadow.

 

+1. Well put.

[Suttree]

Crossroads of Twilight is only the first half of a single story that was too big to fit into a single volume. The Path of Daggers and Winter's Heart should also be treated as a pair. Considering CoT as a standalone is pointless.

That would imply CoT has the first half of a story, which is continued in KoD. It doesn't. It has no story. The summary you yourself posted shows that. At best, it adds one more thing to Egwene's capture - Alviarin's fall from Elaida's grace (which is quite baffling, because we never find out what Alviarin was doing on Tremalking of all places for a full month, and why the Forsaken would send her there). Everything else is characters reaffirming things we already know, delaying things that need to happen, and engaging in events so minor they should have simply been mentioned in passing. Filler.

 

The thought that books need to be bang-bang-bang-bang-bang-BANG (constant plot gratification) is just plain laughable, though.

The thought there are only two extremes - no plot, and constant plot gratification (whatever you mean by that) is laughable.

 

CoT is set up and a novel focused on characters

Except that it has no set up and no characters, as well as no plot, the story in KoD continues seamlessly from Winter's Heart.

 

 

 

LoC+aCoS can basically be viewed as one book.

 

aPoD+WH can basically be viewed as one book.

 

CoT+KoD can be basically viewed as one book.

Or, you know, they can be viewed as six separate books. Which is what they are.

 

Actually we know per RJ CoT essentially was the first half. His struggles and decisions with that book are well documented. It has a great deal of set up and to say you could skip seamlessly from WH to KoD is just ridiculous hyperbole. It distracts from a true discussion on the topic.

[Glyphwright]

Actually we know per RJ CoT essentially was the first half

You're repeating the exact same statement that I answered in the post you quoted. Would you like me to copy-paste the answer?

 

to say you could skip seamlessly from WH to KoD is just ridiculous hyperbole

This is where you state arguments and facts in support of your position.

 

My position is simple - nothing changed in the plot from the beginning of CoT to the end of CoT, other than Egwene's capture. In the beginning of KoD, the characters are exactly where they were at the end of Winter's Heart, having learned nothing new, having accomplished nothing of notice.

Alviarin's chapter seems like a contradiction, because new and unexpected events actually occur... well, I'll explain why it still doesn't matter in a separate thread.

[Clouded]

Actually we know per RJ CoT essentially was the first half

You're repeating the exact same statement that I answered in the post you quoted. Would you like me to copy-paste the answer?

 

to say you could skip seamlessly from WH to KoD is just ridiculous hyperbole

This is where you state arguments and facts in support of your position.

 

My position is simple - nothing changed in the plot from the beginning of CoT to the end of CoT, other than Egwene's capture. In the beginning of KoD, the characters are exactly where they were at the end of Winter's Heart, having learned nothing new, having accomplished nothing of notice.

Alviarin's chapter seems like a contradiction, because new and unexpected events actually occur... well, I'll explain why it still doesn't matter in a separate thread.

 

Umm, Tuon learns that she can channel, and that Sul'dam can be collared.

[thisguy]

Actually we know per RJ CoT essentially was the first half

You're repeating the exact same statement that I answered in the post you quoted. Would you like me to copy-paste the answer?

 

to say you could skip seamlessly from WH to KoD is just ridiculous hyperbole

This is where you state arguments and facts in support of your position.

 

My position is simple - nothing changed in the plot from the beginning of CoT to the end of CoT, other than Egwene's capture. In the beginning of KoD, the characters are exactly where they were at the end of Winter's Heart, having learned nothing new, having accomplished nothing of notice.

Alviarin's chapter seems like a contradiction, because new and unexpected events actually occur... well, I'll explain why it still doesn't matter in a separate thread.

 

Umm, Tuon learns that she can channel, and that Sul'dam can be collared.

 

Yeah, but that can be taken care of in 2-3 pages.

 

"Holy s#@$!!!! I can channel!!!! What? Hey, get that off me. I'm a princess!!!"

 

Just joking - before anyone jumps on me.

[Dagon Thyne]

INTERVIEW: Oct 11th, 2005

KOD Signing Report - Pary (Paraphrased)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

He reaffirmed that the next book would be the final installment of the main series, followed by the prequels, in that order. Reiterated that if it takes 2000 pages, then so be it, and he really will fight with Tor to not divide it like the Martin's A Feast for Crows.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Oct 13th, 2005

KOD Signing Report - Allen Bryan (Paraphrased)

 

 

ROBERT JORDAN

Book Twelve will end the main sequence if he has to personally go to New York and beat the publishers at Tor, even if it runs two thousand pages and they have to invent a new way to bind the books (shudder). There will be two more prequels a la New Spring, and there might—very big MIGHT—be another trilogy in the same universe. Have to chew on it a year or two, he says.

 

 

INTERVIEW: Nov 22nd, 2005

Bridlington Today Interview (Verbatim)

 

QUESTION

How big can we expect the final book to be and how long do you think it will take you to write it?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

As large as it needs to be, and it will be finished as soon as I can finish it. I don't mean to be glib. This is just the simple truth.

 

These are but a few of dozens of quotes of him repeatedly saying he would finish it in one book. That is why the decision to split it into three was hotly debated. Now this is by no means meant to ressurrect the validity of the decision after his death, only that RJ was insistently adamant about releasing aMoL as 1 book. It is impossible to tell what actually would have happened, however, you can be sure that he would have fought to end and only split it if there were absolutely no other way.

 

It was still set for one book when BS took over. It was BS that suggested they break it into 3. The original plan was to have the storylines from TGS, TOM, and AMOL under the name AMOL.

[thisguy]

I wonder if RJ was adamant about releasing the end of the story in one book because he knew his time was coming.

[Suttree]

It was still set for one book when BS took over. It was BS that suggested they break it into 3. The original plan was to have the storylines from TGS, TOM, and AMOL under the name AMOL.

 

Tor suggested it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

You mentioned the three books. And, I mean...The Wheel of Time is huge. There's lots of different places we could go. They are not places that I think we're going to go. Because we don't want to see this turn into something...Not to say anything against the media properties, that's fine, but we don't want to see the Wheel of Time become that. Robert Jordan left notes on this book, which has become three, but it's become three that are collectively of the same length as the book he was going to write. That's the thing you have to remember with the split. He was writing an 800,000 word book, I'm writing an 800,000 word book—8 to 900,000 word book—Tor has decided to slice it up and release it in three segments. It's not like I've decided to write two extra books. I'm writing the one book and I'm allowing them to split it into three. I don't really have the call on it. But that's something different.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ok, lets have a brief look at what happens in CoT.

 

Bashere and Dobraine get jumped - trying to steal the seals.

 

Logain is allowed to leave the Black Tower by Taim.

 

Mat gets luca to agree to let them come - escape Ebou Dar.

 

Perrin finds a massive pack of Darkhound tracks

 

Perrin finds the Shaido.

 

Elayne makes a bargain with Sea Folk lets them have some of Andor so they stay in Caemlyn (which turns out to be important)

 

3000 men under 4 High Seats come to Elayne.

 

Cuendillar is made again.

 

After learning about stuff going down at Shadar Logoth, Rebel Aes Sedai meet and decide to send an embassy to the Black Tower.

 

Anaiya is murdered with saidin, another step in discovering Aran'gar.

 

Aliviarin is deposed as Keeper by Elaida, Mesaana gets raped by Shaidar Haran and SH marks Aliviarin.

 

Pevera learns of asha'man bonding the Aes Sedai, wants to have Red sisters bond Asha'man.

 

Logain, Bashere, Loial and co. find Rand at the Manor, each with their respective news and demands.

 

Rand tells Bashere to negotiate a truce with the Seanchan.

 

Perrin cuts off shaido's hand with axe, feels bad and such, finally gets rid of the Axe for the hammer.

 

Tallanvor finds Seanchan, Perrin agrees to go and join up with them hunting Shaido.

 

Learn that Tuon can channel, and secret of sul'dam is revealed. Rena tries to escape but is shot.

 

Kairen (one who could make cuendillar) is killed with saidin (another aran'gar thing)

 

Egwene captured while trying to Cuendillar Tar Valon.

 

That is only the actual plot advancement, not mentioning the more subtle details that are important.

 

To say that CoT is basically filler is simply false. It may be slow, boring and what have you, but it IS important. To suggest otherwise is not a matter of opinion, it is just incorrect.

[Suttree]

Ok, lets have a brief look at what happens in CoT.

 

Bashere and Dobraine get jumped - trying to steal the seals.

 

Logain is allowed to leave the Black Tower by Taim.

 

Mat gets luca to agree to let them come - escape Ebou Dar.

 

Perrin finds a massive pack of Darkhound tracks

 

Perrin finds the Shaido.

 

Elayne makes a bargain with Sea Folk lets them have some of Andor so they stay in Caemlyn (which turns out to be important)

 

3000 men under 4 High Seats come to Elayne.

 

Cuendillar is made again.

 

After learning about stuff going down at Shadar Logoth, Rebel Aes Sedai meet and decide to send an embassy to the Black Tower.

 

Anaiya is murdered with saidin, another step in discovering Aran'gar.

 

Aliviarin is deposed as Keeper by Elaida, Mesaana gets raped by Shaidar Haran and SH marks Aliviarin.

 

Pevera learns of asha'man bonding the Aes Sedai, wants to have Red sisters bond Asha'man.

 

Logain, Bashere, Loial and co. find Rand at the Manor, each with their respective news and demands.

 

Rand tells Bashere to negotiate a truce with the Seanchan.

 

Perrin cuts off shaido's hand with axe, feels bad and such, finally gets rid of the Axe for the hammer.

 

Tallanvor finds Seanchan, Perrin agrees to go and join up with them hunting Shaido.

 

Learn that Tuon can channel, and secret of sul'dam is revealed. Rena tries to escape but is shot.

 

Kairen (one who could make cuendillar) is killed with saidin (another aran'gar thing)

 

Egwene captured while trying to Cuendillar Tar Valon.

 

That is only the actual plot advancement, not mentioning the more subtle details that are important.

 

To say that CoT is basically filler is simply false. It may be slow, boring and what have you, but it IS important. To suggest otherwise is not a matter of opinion, it is just incorrect.

 

+1

 

Seriously. If that is filler as opposed to set up what do people consider Hinderstrap!

[Maleshub]

Ok, lets have a brief look at what happens in CoT.

 

Bashere and Dobraine get jumped - trying to steal the seals.

 

Logain is allowed to leave the Black Tower by Taim.

 

Mat gets luca to agree to let them come - escape Ebou Dar.

 

Perrin finds a massive pack of Darkhound tracks

 

Perrin finds the Shaido.

 

Elayne makes a bargain with Sea Folk lets them have some of Andor so they stay in Caemlyn (which turns out to be important)

 

3000 men under 4 High Seats come to Elayne.

 

Cuendillar is made again.

 

After learning about stuff going down at Shadar Logoth, Rebel Aes Sedai meet and decide to send an embassy to the Black Tower.

 

Anaiya is murdered with saidin, another step in discovering Aran'gar.

 

Aliviarin is deposed as Keeper by Elaida, Mesaana gets raped by Shaidar Haran and SH marks Aliviarin.

 

Pevera learns of asha'man bonding the Aes Sedai, wants to have Red sisters bond Asha'man.

 

Logain, Bashere, Loial and co. find Rand at the Manor, each with their respective news and demands.

 

Rand tells Bashere to negotiate a truce with the Seanchan.

 

Perrin cuts off shaido's hand with axe, feels bad and such, finally gets rid of the Axe for the hammer.

 

Tallanvor finds Seanchan, Perrin agrees to go and join up with them hunting Shaido.

 

Learn that Tuon can channel, and secret of sul'dam is revealed. Rena tries to escape but is shot.

 

Kairen (one who could make cuendillar) is killed with saidin (another aran'gar thing)

 

Egwene captured while trying to Cuendillar Tar Valon.

 

That is only the actual plot advancement, not mentioning the more subtle details that are important.

 

To say that CoT is basically filler is simply false. It may be slow, boring and what have you, but it IS important. To suggest otherwise is not a matter of opinion, it is just incorrect.

 

Where is "A Cluster of Rosebuds?" My favorite chapter in that whole book!

[Knivy]

You know, I have my gripes about the stories. The biggest one is that whoever edited books 1-3 stunk big time. In all three books the word "further" is used for both further and farther. There are about 100-200 pages somewhere in the middle of book one where farther is used where it should be. Book 4 the problem is fixed.

 

Yes, some of the explanation gets tedious but the guy wrote a HUGE story where each book came out one or more years apart. Certain things were written over and over as a refresher, I believe. I vaguely remember thinking not much happened in CoT. And, there are certain story lines I found tedious - Morgase... blagh. Part of Perrin's (even though, I personally love the character). Mat's started out just annoying - he was a total d#@%, and not a funny or fun one. But, the tale is truly epic and I, basically, think RJ did a fantastic job.

 

Another thing I knoticed on my rereads of the first few books is how Saidin and Saidar are used interchangeably. At first i thought it was just Rand being confused, but later Moir does it a few times..

 

And CoT, like all the other books, I have enjoyed.

[Barid Bel Medar]

-----

 

Where is "A Cluster of Rosebuds?" My favorite chapter in that whole book!

 

It is a great chaper, it is one of my favourite in the series! Not sure if I could put it in with plot development. I was being strictly *literal* in terms of advancement.

 

It does develop the Mat/Tuon relationship a whole lot though.

[Glyphwright]

Ok, lets have a brief look at what happens in CoT.

 

Bashere and Dobraine get jumped - trying to steal the seals.

 

Logain is allowed to leave the Black Tower by Taim.

 

Mat gets luca to agree to let them come - escape Ebou Dar.

 

Perrin finds a massive pack of Darkhound tracks

 

Perrin finds the Shaido.

 

Elayne makes a bargain with Sea Folk lets them have some of Andor so they stay in Caemlyn (which turns out to be important)

 

3000 men under 4 High Seats come to Elayne.

 

Cuendillar is made again.

 

After learning about stuff going down at Shadar Logoth, Rebel Aes Sedai meet and decide to send an embassy to the Black Tower.

 

Anaiya is murdered with saidin, another step in discovering Aran'gar.

 

Aliviarin is deposed as Keeper by Elaida, Mesaana gets raped by Shaidar Haran and SH marks Aliviarin.

 

Pevera learns of asha'man bonding the Aes Sedai, wants to have Red sisters bond Asha'man.

 

Logain, Bashere, Loial and co. find Rand at the Manor, each with their respective news and demands.

 

Rand tells Bashere to negotiate a truce with the Seanchan.

 

Perrin cuts off shaido's hand with axe, feels bad and such, finally gets rid of the Axe for the hammer.

 

Tallanvor finds Seanchan, Perrin agrees to go and join up with them hunting Shaido.

 

Learn that Tuon can channel, and secret of sul'dam is revealed. Rena tries to escape but is shot.

 

Kairen (one who could make cuendillar) is killed with saidin (another aran'gar thing)

 

Egwene captured while trying to Cuendillar Tar Valon.

 

That is only the actual plot advancement, not mentioning the more subtle details that are important.

 

To say that CoT is basically filler is simply false. It may be slow, boring and what have you, but it IS important. To suggest otherwise is not a matter of opinion, it is just incorrect.

Virtually every single point on your list is either a plotline that doesn't go anywhere (like Alviarin, cuendillar), or something so minor that it doesn't warrant an entire book devoted to it. Pevara *deciding* to bond Ashaman isn't a plotline, Pevara bonding Ashaman is a plotline. Perrin finding Shaido or once again agreeing and deciding isn't an event, Perrin beginning to assault the Shaido is an event. CoT isn't simply slow and boring, your own list shows that it is deficient as an installment in the series, it is not a book. It's a very long and very wordy imitation of a book, which tricks you into thinking something is going to happen, and then suddenly drowns you in descriptions of irrelevances, reiterations of things we already know about, and musings/plotting that never go anywhere. Again, most of the points on your list are people agreeing and deciding on things that were expected for some time, and are going to happen in later books. Or something that flat out doesn't matter in later books. This isn't sufficient to warrant a tome of its own, and doesn't relay any new information to the reader. Skipping CoT on my second read-through left absolutely no questions in my mind. Nothing happens in this book. Nothing worth reading about. This isn't a matter of opinion, this is the truth.

[ickis_87]

Ok, lets have a brief look at what happens in CoT.

 

Bashere and Dobraine get jumped - trying to steal the seals.

 

Logain is allowed to leave the Black Tower by Taim.

 

Mat gets luca to agree to let them come - escape Ebou Dar.

 

Perrin finds a massive pack of Darkhound tracks

 

Perrin finds the Shaido.

 

Elayne makes a bargain with Sea Folk lets them have some of Andor so they stay in Caemlyn (which turns out to be important)

 

3000 men under 4 High Seats come to Elayne.

 

Cuendillar is made again.

 

After learning about stuff going down at Shadar Logoth, Rebel Aes Sedai meet and decide to send an embassy to the Black Tower.

 

Anaiya is murdered with saidin, another step in discovering Aran'gar.

 

Aliviarin is deposed as Keeper by Elaida, Mesaana gets raped by Shaidar Haran and SH marks Aliviarin.

 

Pevera learns of asha'man bonding the Aes Sedai, wants to have Red sisters bond Asha'man.

 

Logain, Bashere, Loial and co. find Rand at the Manor, each with their respective news and demands.

 

Rand tells Bashere to negotiate a truce with the Seanchan.

 

Perrin cuts off shaido's hand with axe, feels bad and such, finally gets rid of the Axe for the hammer.

 

Tallanvor finds Seanchan, Perrin agrees to go and join up with them hunting Shaido.

 

Learn that Tuon can channel, and secret of sul'dam is revealed. Rena tries to escape but is shot.

 

Kairen (one who could make cuendillar) is killed with saidin (another aran'gar thing)

 

Egwene captured while trying to Cuendillar Tar Valon.

 

That is only the actual plot advancement, not mentioning the more subtle details that are important.

 

To say that CoT is basically filler is simply false. It may be slow, boring and what have you, but it IS important. To suggest otherwise is not a matter of opinion, it is just incorrect.

Virtually every single point on your list is either a plotline that doesn't go anywhere (like Alviarin, cuendillar), or something so minor that it doesn't warrant an entire book devoted to it. Pevara *deciding* to bond Ashaman isn't a plotline, Pevara bonding Ashaman is a plotline. Perrin finding Shaido or once again agreeing and deciding isn't an event, Perrin beginning to assault the Shaido is an event. CoT isn't simply slow and boring, your own list shows that it is deficient as an installment in the series, it is not a book. It's a very long and very wordy imitation of a book, which tricks you into thinking something is going to happen, and then suddenly drowns you in descriptions of irrelevances, reiterations of things we already know about, and musings/plotting that never go anywhere. Again, most of the points on your list are people agreeing and deciding on things that were expected for some time, and are going to happen in later books. Or something that flat out doesn't matter in later books. This isn't sufficient to warrant a tome of its own, and doesn't relay any new information to the reader. Skipping CoT on my second read-through left absolutely no questions in my mind. Nothing happens in this book. Nothing worth reading about. This isn't a matter of opinion, this is the truth.

 

whether they're plot lines or not, they're seeds of plots. if you didn't read or aknowledge these points in the first place reading on would get rather confusing.

 

and if you want to strip it back to pure plot and little else the story would have been written in 3 books conserning little else other than rand, mat and perrin.

[Mr Ares]

RJ's stated reason for not wanting to split the book was that he felt that he couldn't write two decent novels out of it. He could write one coherent book and one incoherent book, or two semi-coherent books, but not two coherent books.

 

Ok, that makes a lot of sense to me. I also think splitting it in two would've only gotten two semi-coherent books. I just don't see what the big deal is there, since a lot of the books in the series were already a long way from being coherent novels. It's the power of the best scenes that's always been important in WoT, not the coherence of the story.

No, the coherence of the story has always been important. The series is so much more than just a collection of good scenes strung together. As for the big deal of two semi-coherent books, bear in mind that some of the worst reviewed books in the series fit just that mould. I doubt RJ wanted another CoT or PoD. The books that are most complete in their own right tend to be the ones that are thought best.

 

Virtually every single point on your list is either a plotline that doesn't go anywhere (like Alviarin, cuendillar), or something so minor that it doesn't warrant an entire book devoted to it.

The discovery of cuendillar leads to the plan to seal the harbours, which leads to Egwene's capture, which leads to her proving herself as Amyrlin to the Tower AS, and eventually to the end of the WT split. To call that a plotline that didn't go anywhere does rather undermine the point you're trying to make.

 

Pevara *deciding* to bond Ashaman isn't a plotline, Pevara bonding Ashaman is a plotline. Perrin finding Shaido or once again agreeing and deciding isn't an event, Perrin beginning to assault the Shaido is an event.

Actually, all those things are events. Perrin cannot assault the Shaido until he has found them. Finding them is an event, a step on the way to another event, assaulting them. The one event must precede the other. A lot of what happens in CoT is set up for things that will happen later, but being set up doesn't mean it is unimportant, merely unsatisfactory as it lacks a pay off.

[Glyphwright]

The discovery of cuendillar leads to the plan to seal the harbours

Which never amounts to anything. Elaida barely notices the sealed harbours, she loses her station due to a completely different sequence of events, and finally gets collared in a Seanchan raid. The plan to seal the harbours is yet another red herring that looks like it's going to lead somewhere, but never does.

 

which leads to Egwene's capture

That is an indirect/accidental consequence of a plotline that doesn't go anywhere.

 

Actually, all those things are events

It's not an event if nothing happens, and nothing happens in the book.

 

Perrin cannot assault the Shaido until he has found them

Yes, and you know what? Perrin cannot find the Shaido until he had his morning breakfast. And he can't have his morning breakfast before the cook toasts some bread and pancakes. And he can't toast some break until the villagers have enough grain for the windmill. And they can't have enough grain... point taken, right? There's any number of ways you can stretch out a plotline by slowing down the progress and focusing on things that don't matter to anyone. Devoting a whole book to Perrin finding the Shaido and doing nothing about it was bad. He had a whole seven chapters, seven long chapters in which something could have happened, but didn't. Perrin constantly moaning about how incomprehensible Faile is can only be called a waste of our time. We don't need to read this. This is what they call filler, something mundane and irrelevant that fills the gaps between events.

 

And no, Perrin trading one deadly weapon for another deadly weapon doesn't count as an event. He's still going to kill plenty of people, what difference does it make whether it's by an ax, or a hammer? Crushing people's limbs is better than cutting them? Give me a break.

[Mr Ares]

The discovery of cuendillar leads to the plan to seal the harbours

Which never amounts to anything. Elaida barely notices the sealed harbours, she loses her station due to a completely different sequence of events, and finally gets collared in a Seanchan raid. The plan to seal the harbours is yet another red herring that looks like it's going to lead somewhere, but never does.

 

which leads to Egwene's capture

That is an indirect/accidental consequence of a plotline that doesn't go anywhere.

So unless a plotline unfolds in the way you want it to, it doesn't count. Got it. It is true that Elaida was not starved into submission. It is also true that the rediscovery of cuendillar was a link in a chain of events that lead to the reunification of the WT. An indirect consequence of an action is still a consequence. The one thing still lead to the other. The plotline does go somewhere. That it does so via accidental and indirect means does not change that simple reality. Things don't have to fall out in the way characters expect or want them to to count.

 

Actually, all those things are events

It's not an event if nothing happens, and nothing happens in the book.

True, but if something happens it is an event. And stuff happened. Now, you can say not enough happened, but not enough happening does not preclude stuff happening. An event being minor does not make it not an event any more.

 

Perrin cannot assault the Shaido until he has found them

Yes, and you know what? Perrin cannot find the Shaido until he had his morning breakfast. And he can't have his morning breakfast before the cook toasts some bread and pancakes. And he can't toast some break until the villagers have enough grain for the windmill. And they can't have enough grain... point taken, right?

Actually, none of that follows. How can he attack the Shaido if she doesn't know where they are? Because I can explain quite simply how he could find the Shaido without breakfast - he could simply look for them without eating breakfast. Being hungry does not preclude finding stuff. Not knowing where stuff is does preclude attacking it.

There's any number of ways you can stretch out a plotline by slowing down the progress and focusing on things that don't matter to anyone.

True, but irrelevant, as Perrin finding the Shaido does matter. There is a difference between set up and filler. Finding the Shaido is set up, but it isn't filler.

 

And no, Perrin trading one deadly weapon for another deadly weapon doesn't count as an event. He's still going to kill plenty of people, what difference does it make whether it's by an ax, or a hammer? Crushing people's limbs is better than cutting them? Give me a break.

Would that be a break with an axe or with a hammer? And trading in a weapon for another weapon as foreshadowed since the first books of the series is an event (Verin asked him in TSR when he would give up the axe for the hammer). "When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known." That's the prophecy. It mentions hammers, not axes. And the significance of the choice was elaborated on in ToM - Perrin is a blacksmith. The hammer he carried throughout the series came from a blacksmith. It was a tool, not a weapon. With a hammer, he can kill, but he can also rebuild. Him giving up the axe was something long anticipated, and important on more than one level. So yes, it is an event.

[TristanWebb]

The Shaido bit isn't a good example. The actual finding of them was done by the Maidens off screen anyway, telling Perrin they were found is one line, and most of what happened could of been condensed into a third of the space it actually took without losing much.

[Glyphwright]

So unless a plotline unfolds in the way you want it to

I'm sorry, do you honestly not see the difference between a plotline reaching its logical conclusion, and a plotline accidentally triggering a completely different plotline along the way, and fading into obscurity? The harbors blocked by cuendillar is yet another thing that's built up only to serve as a red herring and a futile waste of time. It never makes any difference in and of itself. The blocked harbors are hardly mentioned afterwards, and play no role in the reunification of the White Tower. Other things do. This was simply used by RJ as a convenient excuse to transport Egwene from the rebel camp to the White Tower.

 

True, but if something happens it is an event. And stuff happened. Now, you can say not enough happened, but not enough happening does not preclude stuff happening. An event being minor does not make it not an event any more.

I'll just leave this particular quote without comment.

 

Because I can explain quite simply how he could find the Shaido without breakfast - he could simply look for them without eating breakfast

Eating breakfast implies having something to eat on a regular basis. Or any number of mundane needs that we don't want to read about. Perrin can't fight the Shaido starving to death, he can't fight the Shaido naked, he can't fight the Shaido falling over from tiredness - that doesn't mean you're supposed to write a book where he does nothing but eat, dress up, and have a good night's sleep - that's not important. We assume this happened as we read the book, without thinking about it.

 

Being physically close to the Shaido is just another mundane condition that cannot serve as a basis for a plotline. As benevolent cow reminds us, he didn't even go looking for them - other people did. He just sits around in the camp moping about Faile and listens to people's reports on things that will never pay off in future volumes. Useless.

 

as foreshadowed since the first books

Who. The hell. Cares. If it was foretold. It's still a contrivance that doesn't even make any logical sense. You can kill, maim, and threaten people with a hammer just as well as with an ax, it's not that big of a deal. Yet another ridiculous detail blown out of proportion for the sake of making the book longer.

 

The hammer he carried throughout the series came from a blacksmith. It was a tool, not a weapon. With a hammer, he can kill, but he can also rebuild

Except he never does that, he just keeps on killing.