Seanchan and the AoL

[shortkut]

1. and you are arguing "I don't perceive them to be AS so they are not. We have seen people known to be BA called AS.

 

2. How is my counter flawed. Winner is a descriptor of their status as a competitor. Lightfriend would be a descriptor of their status as AS. Are you [Removed] claiming winner = AS and competitor = human/channeler because that would make no sense.

 

3. Never said it was desirable, but they had no need for the WT unless they thought themselves initiates of the tower.

 

4. wrong. when the hunters find a BA they still think of her as AS. they don't suddenly think she is not. (they might debate it, not sure)

 

5. so is she or isn't she. being AS in spirit mean jacksh*t. is she or isn't she. when talking about her recently in other threads, how did you, sutt, and toot describe/refer to her

[Morsker]

No, they are perceived as AS. You are still arguing perception against reality.

You're the one arguing semantics. Your definitions are contrived because you could just as well say that no Tairen is a Darkfriend, no Aeil is a Darkfriend, no member of the Black Tower is a Darkfriend, by definition. At that rate, we might as well say no human is a Darkfriend.

 

The White Tower is the second-most corrupt organization in the world, after the Black Tower. In other organizations, we wonder who "the Darkfriend" is. In the White Tower, we wonder if every next sister might be a Darkfriend. That's too big a problem to wave away by just defining there to be no Darkfriend Aes Sedai. Why not do it with the Black Tower too then?

[shortkut]

No, they are perceived as AS. You are still arguing perception against reality.

You're the one arguing semantics. Your definitions are contrived because you could just as well say that no Tairen is a Darkfriend, no Aeil is a Darkfriend, no member of the Black Tower is a Darkfriend, by definition. At that rate, we might as well say no human is a Darkfriend.

 

The White Tower is the second-most corrupt organization in the world, after the Black Tower. In other organizations, we wonder who "the Darkfriend" is. In the White Tower, we wonder if every next sister might be a Darkfriend. That's too big a problem to wave away by just defining there to be no Darkfriend Aes Sedai. Why not do it with the Black Tower too then?

that's your astute perception and not ares' rose-colored reality

[thisguy]

This conversation is getting old but the Little Tower raised 7 women to the full shawl who never swore oaths. So, oaths do not make a woman an AS. The BA was trained by the AS, given the badges of the AS, put into positions of power in the AS, sent to deal with the problems of nations and DFs and shadowspawn. They are AS. Even if you take the oaths into account, there is no oath not to break the oaths and there is no oath not to serve the DO. And, if you say it was taken for granted, I ask you to please read the chapter where Egwene is raised. They speak about the wording of the law and say, "they probably took this for granted but it's not written (paraphrasing).

[thisguy]

No, they are perceived as AS. You are still arguing perception against reality.

You're the one arguing semantics. Your definitions are contrived because you could just as well say that no Tairen is a Darkfriend, no Aeil is a Darkfriend, no member of the Black Tower is a Darkfriend, by definition. At that rate, we might as well say no human is a Darkfriend.

 

The White Tower is the second-most corrupt organization in the world, after the Black Tower. In other organizations, we wonder who "the Darkfriend" is. In the White Tower, we wonder if every next sister might be a Darkfriend. That's too big a problem to wave away by just defining there to be no Darkfriend Aes Sedai. Why not do it with the Black Tower too then?

Agreed.

[Ashaman Kovan]

You do realize if the BA didn't exist, if Ishmael hadn't founded them and been an integral part in their workings, if all these counter oaths had been put into place and were effective, if the BA hunters (Prior to the girls) had been total badasses and single-handedly defeated the BA, it would make for a much less interesting story. Don't you think?

[yoniy0]

I have a couple of things to say. First, NStN was very clear on this point: one becomes AS by the act of swearing the three Oaths. Whether we think of them as being an integral part of being AS or not, that's the way things are there and then. This doesn't automatically mean that by foreswearing them you cease to be AS, but it does give credence to that notion. Elayne certainly believes a Black sister has forfeited her right to the Shawl, if that's any indication.

 

Second, please take care how you conduct this argument. I encourage everyone to inform DM staff if anyone treats you in a disrespectful manner.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I have a couple of things to say. First, NStN was very clear on this point: one becomes AS by the act of swearing the three Oaths. Whether we think of them as being an integral part of being AS or not, that's the way things are there and then. This doesn't automatically mean that by foreswearing them you cease to be AS, but it does give credence to that notion.

 

I think it stands to reason that's exactly what it does.

[Suttree]

No, they are perceived as AS. You are still arguing perception against reality.

You're the one arguing semantics. Your definitions are contrived because you could just as well say that no Tairen is a Darkfriend, no Aeil is a Darkfriend, no member of the Black Tower is a Darkfriend, by definition. At that rate, we might as well say no human is a Darkfriend.

 

The White Tower is the second-most corrupt organization in the world, after the Black Tower. In other organizations, we wonder who "the Darkfriend" is. In the White Tower, we wonder if every next sister might be a Darkfriend. That's too big a problem to wave away by just defining there to be no Darkfriend Aes Sedai. Why not do it with the Black Tower too then?

 

It absolutely works for the BT, though obviously not for nations, that should go without saying....

 

LoC Ch. 42

"Another word in the Old Tongue is asha’man. It means guardian, or guardians. Or defender, and maybe a couple of other things; I told you, the Old Tongue is very flexible. Guardian seems to be best, though. Not just any defender or guardian, though. You could not call a man who defended an unjust cause asha’man, and never one that was evil. An asha’manwas a man who defended truth and justice and right for everyone. A guardian who would not yield even when hope was gone."

 

If Taim was working for a Forsaken with the express purpose of subverting these channeleres for the Shadow then they are not Asha'man no matter how many people they tricked into believing them to be so. Despite short's shrill protests what one truly is in "spirit" is what counts, no what one is in name only.

[thisguy]

I don't agree. The whole book we see what things are thought to be or supposed to be stood on their heads. AS became AS without oaths, A woman became a Wise One without going into Rhuidean.

 

If you say that Ashaman who are evil are not Ashaman in spirit, I agree with you. Not ashaman in fact, I don't agree with you.

[shortkut]

sutt, i toned down my rhetoric whe you whined like a little baby so enough with the potshots. just because i do not respond to them all does not mean you were so clever and subtle that i missed them. it is funny that you are calling my arguments shrill since yours are the equivalent of "*fingers in ears* LALALALA CAN'T HEAR YOU. I'M GOING TO SHOUT BECAUSE WE ALL KNOW THE LOUDEST PERSON IS ALWAYS RIGHT!!!!!!!!111!."

 

Seriously, you got upset when i spoke down to you and suggested that certain areas of your intellect were deficient. You then had the gall to play dumb like you did nothing. I was then the bigger person, apologized, and toned down my words only to have you continue to act like a 10 year old. Get your head out of your ass and grow up.

[yoniy0]

I thought I made it clear the way you've been expressing yourselves is unacceptable, and should stop. Now, while I familiarize myself with the entire turn of events, this thread is locked. Whether or not it will reopen, I'll post here again to let everyone know, but if you were party to this argument, expect me to contact you personally.

[yoniy0]

I'm reopening this thread, but only for discussion on the AoL and the Seanchan, which seems to be persisting through all of this argument about AS and the Tower.

 

To be clear, the argument about AS is over now. If you want to continue it (in more respectful tones), take it to one of the threads dedicated to the assessment of the Tower's merits.

[Knivy]

The Seanchan, no matter how terribly or greatly they rule, will have no impact on the arrival of the AoL, due to the fact that channeling disappears at some point, and there are still several ages between.

[Vardar]

The Seanchan, no matter how terribly or greatly they rule, will have no impact on the arrival of the AoL, due to the fact that channeling disappears at some point, and there are still several ages between.

 

Was this whole channeling disappears thing a quote? (curious).

[Knivy]

The Seanchan, no matter how terribly or greatly they rule, will have no impact on the arrival of the AoL, due to the fact that channeling disappears at some point, and there are still several ages between.

 

Was this whole channeling disappears thing a quote? (curious).

Randland is Earth. We dont have channeling, so it must go out at some point. Also, isnt the AoL begun with the discovery of the Power?

[Mr Ares]

The Seanchan, no matter how terribly or greatly they rule, will have no impact on the arrival of the AoL, due to the fact that channeling disappears at some point, and there are still several ages between.

Was this whole channeling disappears thing a quote? (curious).

There's a few quotes. The books imply, and RJ outright states, that our own age is an Age of the Wheel, and therefore channeling must be gone at soem point for it to be rediscovered.

Here's a decent quote:

WEEK 18 QUESTION

Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

ROBERT JORDAN

The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)