Characters you picture(d) incorrectly

[driedraspberry]

Genetic drift happens, mass extinction etc. But that doesn't mean the Saldeans will evolve a distinct feature like tilted eyes in a few thousand years. Accumulation of the mutations for something like that to happen takes a very long time, more along the lines of 100k.

 

As per rules of evolution, for the Aiel to evolve very dark skin, one thing must be true: the fair skinned die before they can reproduce, leaving the darker to leave behind more offspring.

 

Seeing as they cover themselves and take other percussions, I doubt the above tends to be true. Aside from that environment has some effects of gene expression, but that has limits based on the alleles inherited.

[Agitel]

Genetic drift happens, mass extinction etc. But that doesn't mean the Saldeans will evolve a distinct feature like tilted eyes in a few thousand years. Accumulation of the mutations for something like that to happen takes a very long time, more along the lines of 100k.

 

As per rules of evolution, for the Aiel to evolve very dark skin, one thing must be true: the fair skinned die before they can reproduce, leaving the darker to leave behind more offspring.

 

Seeing as they cover themselves and take other percussions, I doubt the above tends to be true. Aside from that environment has some effects of gene expression, but that has limits based on the alleles inherited.

 

More than likely that was the predominant trait in that region just after the Breaking for whatever reason.

 

Anyway, perhaps we should get back to who we pictured incorrectly.

[Vardar]

Genetic drift happens, mass extinction etc. But that doesn't mean the Saldeans will evolve a distinct feature like tilted eyes in a few thousand years. Accumulation of the mutations for something like that to happen takes a very long time, more along the lines of 100k.

 

As per rules of evolution, for the Aiel to evolve very dark skin, one thing must be true: the fair skinned die before they can reproduce, leaving the darker to leave behind more offspring.

 

Seeing as they cover themselves and take other percussions, I doubt the above tends to be true. Aside from that environment has some effects of gene expression, but that has limits based on the alleles inherited.

 

100k years?

Explain Ireland and Red hair then.

 

that being said, it wouldn't take all the lighter people dying off to slowly alter the geneic makeup of the people as a whole. They tan, quite well apparently. You realize some people can gain a permenant tan spending enough time in the sun right? Eventually their skin would adjust, and people would naturally be born darker.

 

And still, your entire counter-argument relies on the fact that people gravitated towards others who looked like them post breaking. In the chaos of the breaking, no one would have worried about that. Those features, skin tone, eyes, hair, height, all developed post breaking.

 

With the exception of the sea folk. It seems they all stuck together and fled to the ships at one time, wonder what happend to the people who looked like them who stayed on the mainland.

[Agitel]

You realize some people can gain a permenant tan spending enough time in the sun right? Eventually their skin would adjust, and people would naturally be born darker.

 

lol? Aside from the fact that evolution doesn't even work that way, the only skin that tans on the Aiel is the exposed skin, and very little is ever exposed to the elements. Their bodies never really tan all over. So you're wrong on both fronts there.

[Vardar]

You realize some people can gain a permenant tan spending enough time in the sun right? Eventually their skin would adjust, and people would naturally be born darker.

 

lol? Aside from the fact that evolution doesn't even work that way, the only skin that tans on the Aiel is the exposed skin, and very little is ever exposed to the elements. Their bodies never really tan all over. So you're wrong on both fronts there.

 

Actually I'm a lot darker than I used to be, when I spend summers in the sun, over the winter I don't lose all my color and through the years, get progressively darker.

[Agitel]

You realize some people can gain a permenant tan spending enough time in the sun right? Eventually their skin would adjust, and people would naturally be born darker.

 

lol? Aside from the fact that evolution doesn't even work that way, the only skin that tans on the Aiel is the exposed skin, and very little is ever exposed to the elements. Their bodies never really tan all over. So you're wrong on both fronts there.

 

Actually I'm a lot darker than I used to be, when I spend summers in the sun, over the winter I don't lose all my color and through the years, get progressively darker.

 

The genes you pass on to your children are the same genes that you had at birth. The genes that determine your skin color don't change with tanning. Read up a bit on natural selection.

 

And again, the Aiel don't tan their bodies, leaving most of their bodies still very fair skinned.

[driedraspberry]

Tans wear off when your skin regenerates.... and Aiel covet up. Anyway, your words were that they specifically evolved. I explained why that wouldn't happen.

 

I suggested that Randlanders stuck around with people of their own pre-breaking culture. Yes that involves looking the same, and being of the same region. It makes sense that not everyone travelled far away like the Aiel. Point is, tilted Saldean eye probably isn't anything new.

[Vardar]

You realize some people can gain a permenant tan spending enough time in the sun right? Eventually their skin would adjust, and people would naturally be born darker.

 

lol? Aside from the fact that evolution doesn't even work that way, the only skin that tans on the Aiel is the exposed skin, and very little is ever exposed to the elements. Their bodies never really tan all over. So you're wrong on both fronts there.

 

Actually I'm a lot darker than I used to be, when I spend summers in the sun, over the winter I don't lose all my color and through the years, get progressively darker.

 

The genes you pass on to your children are the same genes that you had at birth. The genes that determine your skin color don't change with tanning. Read up a bit on natural selection.

 

And again, the Aiel don't tan their bodies, leaving most of their bodies still very fair skinned.

 

Actually from a genetics standpoint, the genes for lighter and darker skin reside in all of us.

 

Your skin color can change with tanning. I know I Wasn't born 3-4 shades lighter on my chest and thighs. It happens. Does it happen to everyone? Nope.

 

Tans wear off when your skin regenerates.... and Aiel covet up. Anyway, your words were that they specifically evolved. I explained why that wouldn't happen.

 

I suggested that Randlanders stuck around with people of their own pre-breaking culture. Yes that involves looking the same, and being of the same region. It makes sense that not everyone travelled far away like the Aiel. Point is, tilted Saldean eye probably isn't anything new.

 

Saldean eyes, Caerhin height, Tarien skin tone, etc. There's other examples listed in the books, lots of them actually, depending on the country.

[Vardar]

Although to toss this out there:l Are we debating the same thing? What do ya'll consider "Fair Skinned"

 

And I honestly can't find a decription of the Aiel as Fair skinned. I'm in book 4 where Mat tells Rand if he keeps standing in the Sun he'll really look like the Aiel, leading me to believe they're pretty dark normally. (Not brown dark, but darker skinned).

 

I always pictured their skin tone near the desert dwelling people on our planet.

[dexterryu]

3000 years is plenty of time for different types of looks to occur. Look at many of the European nations... most of them were formed after Rome but many have distinct features.

 

Also, other geographic features tend to favor certain types of builds. Mountainous\hilly areas favor people with shorter/stalkier arms & legs. Flatter lands tend to favor tall and lean.

[Alric]

The genetics discussion is quite interesting, and I've thought of adding something myself, but I'd be sad to see this thread's original topic die. Is it possible to make another thread for the genetics/evolution topic? I'm sure it would have no problems getting started considering the interest here.

[thisguy]

Although to toss this out there:l Are we debating the same thing? What do ya'll consider "Fair Skinned"

 

And I honestly can't find a decription of the Aiel as Fair skinned. I'm in book 4 where Mat tells Rand if he keeps standing in the Sun he'll really look like the Aiel, leading me to believe they're pretty dark normally. (Not brown dark, but darker skinned).

 

I always pictured their skin tone near the desert dwelling people on our planet.

I think there's one of Avi in Rand's room at Tear. I believe it's before they go down to the docks to fight Lanfear. At that point he thinks they're going straight to Caemlyn. She's all nooked and everything and he thinks something about her being pale (aside from her neck and arms - basically, a farmer's tan). I believe there is one or two earlier remarks about how light skinned they are - the parts of them that don't see the sun much.

[Suttree]

And I honestly can't find a decription of the Aiel as Fair skinned. I'm in book 4 where Mat tells Rand if he keeps standing in the Sun he'll really look like the Aiel, leading me to believe they're pretty dark normally. (Not brown dark, but darker skinned).

 

I always pictured their skin tone near the desert dwelling people on our planet.

 

They are fair, it was one of the twists RJ threw in...

 

Interview: Jun 27th, 1996

AOL Chat 1 (Verbatim)

Seraph23

 

First off, I'd like to say thanks Mr. Jordan for providing my family and I countless hours of reading enjoyment, and I'd like to ask you something about the Aiel, well, who are they?

Robert Jordan

 

You're welcome. And they are the descendants of the pacifists who were in service to the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. If on the other hand, you mean the source of the culture...in my mind, they contain some elements of the Apache, some of the Zulu, some of the Bedouin, and some elements of my own including that I rather liked the fact of making the desert dwellers blue-eyed and fair instead of the usual dark-eyed, dark-complected desert people.

[driedraspberry]

3000 years is plenty of time for different types of looks to occur. Look at many of the European nations... most of them were formed after Rome but many have distinct features.

 

I would wager those distinctions can be attributed to the locals, those who settled in those region originally and had the time and the restricted gene pool, and not because the later inhabitants spontaneously took up those traits.

 

The problem with the 3K years isn't that it's not possible for a family to inherit an odd trait, functioning mutations are rare, but happen all the same. However, for a whole population to have those traits would take much longer than that, unless it's highly beneficiary and those that don't have it die off in much higher numbers before they're reproductive. Or mechanisms for drift are involved, skewing allele frequencies to spread those traits quickly. And of course, with Randland populations we're not even talking about it on a one trait-one allele scope, but multiple traits and alleles identifying people from Domani/Saldaea/Aiel...

 

Alright, I do feel bad about the thread going off topic. No more from me.

[Agitel]

You realize some people can gain a permenant tan spending enough time in the sun right? Eventually their skin would adjust, and people would naturally be born darker.

 

lol? Aside from the fact that evolution doesn't even work that way, the only skin that tans on the Aiel is the exposed skin, and very little is ever exposed to the elements. Their bodies never really tan all over. So you're wrong on both fronts there.

 

Actually I'm a lot darker than I used to be, when I spend summers in the sun, over the winter I don't lose all my color and through the years, get progressively darker.

 

The genes you pass on to your children are the same genes that you had at birth. The genes that determine your skin color don't change with tanning. Read up a bit on natural selection.

 

And again, the Aiel don't tan their bodies, leaving most of their bodies still very fair skinned.

 

Actually from a genetics standpoint, the genes for lighter and darker skin reside in all of us.

 

Your skin color can change with tanning. I know I Wasn't born 3-4 shades lighter on my chest and thighs. It happens. Does it happen to everyone? Nope.

 

 

You don't contain the alleles for every possible skin color inside of you. I don't know what you're talking about. Skin color is determined by a number of genes, not just any one, of course. The combination you have determines your skin color. You don't have every possible combination inside of you. That combination doesn't change as you tan. What you're claiming is so absurd I really don't even know where to begin.

 

You can get as dark as you like tanning, if you were to have a child, and if you are naturally fair skinned, then you are passing on the alleles that make you fair skinned, even if your skin is the color of dark leather because of excessive tanning. Tanning doesn't change the alleles you're passing on. Your suntan is not passed on to your offspring. Successive generations of suntanning and reproducing and suntanning and reproducing won't darken skin over generations. If you believe so, you need to retake high school biology.

[Vardar]

You don't contain the alleles for every possible skin color inside of you. I don't know what you're talking about. Skin color is determined by a number of genes, not just any one, of course. The combination you have determines your skin color. You don't have every possible combination inside of you. That combination doesn't change as you tan. What you're claiming is so absurd I really don't even know where to begin.

 

You can get as dark as you like tanning, if you were to have a child, and if you are naturally fair skinned, then you are passing on the alleles that make you fair skinned, even if your skin is the color of dark leather because of excessive tanning. Tanning doesn't change the alleles you're passing on. Your suntan is not passed on to your offspring. Successive generations of suntanning and reproducing and suntanning and reproducing won't darken skin over generations. If you believe so, you need to retake high school biology.

 

Depending on your ancestery, you do. Period. There are very very few humans not of mixed ancestery on this planet. Even ones who believe they are most likely aren't. So yes, the average human contains the genes of many different skin colors, eye colors, etc in his/her body. I never said that suntanning would be passed on, I said the skin of the people as a whole would naturally darken in 3000 years.

 

So let's go back to my claim.

 

3000 years is enough time for people to change physically, generally based on where they live, what they do. (I.e. cave dwellers would be shorter, people in the desert would gradually darken over generations)

There's evidence of change in the stories, most of these changes came post breaking (Saldean eyes, and nose apparently, Caerihin height, Tarien skin tone). It was suggested those people simply stuck together during the breaking, which is truly absurd.

Some people who "tan" or darken due to the sun, never lighten up.

The genes for color combo's resiudes in all of us, genetically speaking, we're all mutts. There are very few people who aren't and those who aren't are extremely isolated and have been for countless years. Since the Aiel came from a larger society, the odds of them not being mixed with some thing else is slim. 3000 years is long enough for genetic mutations to develop, but not long enough for the genetic pattern to complete alter from what it was.

 

Now which of these statements is untrue. Please keep the insults to yourself sir.

[shortkut]

genetics does not work exactly the way you think vard...

[Thorum]

Vardarmus and Agitel, you're both right. Vardarmus' first statement was probably meant over several generations. I don't see any possible other difference of opinion.

 

genetics does not work exactly the way you think vard...

What does he get wrong?

 

 

 

Who I always pictured wrong: the foxes. Listened to Mat in Rhuidean on my way to work, and their description is totally different from how I imagined fox-like-humans to look.

[Vardar]

Vardarmus and Agitel, you're both right. Vardarmus' first statement was probably meant over several generations. I don't see any possible other difference of opinion.

 

genetics does not work exactly the way you think vard...

What does he get wrong?

 

 

 

Who I always pictured wrong: the foxes. Listened to Mat in Rhuidean on my way to work, and their description is totally different from how I imagined fox-like-humans to look.

Yes I meant over the many generations.

 

I still don't know what they look like. I imagine tall skinny humans with pointy features, kinda elvish.

 

Short: What did I get wrong?

 

Genetics and Geneology are two of my favorite hobbies.

[shortkut]

your posting on genetics/evolution reads like dawkins. if this comesoff condescending, i apologize in advance. i'm on a phone and need to keep things short and simple

 

the only way for any group of people to change phenotype is to pass along a particular set of genes different from what was currently there. there needs to be a reason for that, either genetic drift or mutation (to keep it simple). the aiel seem to have been one race of people with a very similar description to one another. from what we can tell in the books, 99+% of the time they only mate with other aiel. (side note: the tinkers have been interbreeding, for lack of a better term, for almost 3000 years and changed a lot because of new phenotypes mixing in.) if the aiel only had offspring with other similar-looking aiel, the chances of their appearance changing drops dramatically. little genetic drift, little chance of influx of new genes.

 

mutations happen all the time but 99+% of them are not beneficial (note: this does not mean harmful, most make no noticable changes). in order for the entire populatio to get significantly darker, there would need to be an external pressure preventing the fairer skinned aiel from reproducingl relative to the darker skinned aiel. the aiel protect their skin so the heat and sun do not kill them (either through heat stroke or skin cancer or whatever). without this external pressure and virtually only one pheotype existing, there is little chance for the aiel to spontaneously darken.

 

this is obviously a very simplified explanation and only touches on part of your post but it is the best i can do at the moment

[fuzz1717]

your posting on genetics/evolution reads like dawkins. if this comesoff condescending, i apologize in advance. i'm on a phone and need to keep things short and simple

 

the only way for any group of people to change phenotype is to pass along a particular set of genes different from what was currently there. there needs to be a reason for that, either genetic drift or mutation (to keep it simple). the aiel seem to have been one race of people with a very similar description to one another. from what we can tell in the books, 99+% of the time they only mate with other aiel. (side note: the tinkers have been interbreeding, for lack of a better term, for almost 3000 years and changed a lot because of new phenotypes mixing in.) if the aiel only had offspring with other similar-looking aiel, the chances of their appearance changing drops dramatically. little genetic drift, little chance of influx of new genes.

 

mutations happen all the time but 99+% of them are not beneficial (note: this does not mean harmful, most make no noticable changes). in order for the entire populatio to get significantly darker, there would need to be an external pressure preventing the fairer skinned aiel from reproducingl relative to the darker skinned aiel. the aiel protect their skin so the heat and sun do not kill them (either through heat stroke or skin cancer or whatever). without this external pressure and virtually only one pheotype existing, there is little chance for the aiel to spontaneously darken.

 

this is obviously a very simplified explanation and only touches on part of your post but it is the best i can do at the moment

 

+1, although 3000 years is enough for, what, 100 generations (if i can do math right). After 100 generations, they should have darkened a little, but hey, if RJ wants to keep them fair skinned that works for me. Perhaps the Aiel from the northern waste (which logically should be cooler, as the equator seems to be a bit south of Randland) are light skinned and have interbreed with the southern Aiel, keeping the light skin gene in the pool. Or maybe the Aiel selectively breed, meaning that lighter skinned individuals are preferred to darker skinned by the Aiel themselves. This topic has gotten way off, but i like this sciency stuff. Its fun! But, to answer the original question, i always pictured the snake people (Aelfinn?) to be like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan-ti

[Vardar]

your posting on genetics/evolution reads like dawkins. if this comesoff condescending, i apologize in advance. i'm on a phone and need to keep things short and simple

 

the only way for any group of people to change phenotype is to pass along a particular set of genes different from what was currently there. there needs to be a reason for that, either genetic drift or mutation (to keep it simple). the aiel seem to have been one race of people with a very similar description to one another. from what we can tell in the books, 99+% of the time they only mate with other aiel. (side note: the tinkers have been interbreeding, for lack of a better term, for almost 3000 years and changed a lot because of new phenotypes mixing in.) if the aiel only had offspring with other similar-looking aiel, the chances of their appearance changing drops dramatically. little genetic drift, little chance of influx of new genes.

 

mutations happen all the time but 99+% of them are not beneficial (note: this does not mean harmful, most make no noticable changes). in order for the entire populatio to get significantly darker, there would need to be an external pressure preventing the fairer skinned aiel from reproducingl relative to the darker skinned aiel. the aiel protect their skin so the heat and sun do not kill them (either through heat stroke or skin cancer or whatever). without this external pressure and virtually only one pheotype existing, there is little chance for the aiel to spontaneously darken.

 

this is obviously a very simplified explanation and only touches on part of your post but it is the best i can do at the moment

 

It didn't come off as standoffish, I guess I thought it was assumed I was implying the fairer skinned people would have died off and left the darker Aiel. Even with the sun protection, most desert dwelling people aren't fair, theres a reason for that.

 

But with the RJ quote, he admits it makes no sense and he just did it because he wanted too, so this entire debate is kinda moot with that quote. (Thanks Sutts)

 

your posting on genetics/evolution reads like dawkins. if this comesoff condescending, i apologize in advance. i'm on a phone and need to keep things short and simple

 

the only way for any group of people to change phenotype is to pass along a particular set of genes different from what was currently there. there needs to be a reason for that, either genetic drift or mutation (to keep it simple). the aiel seem to have been one race of people with a very similar description to one another. from what we can tell in the books, 99+% of the time they only mate with other aiel. (side note: the tinkers have been interbreeding, for lack of a better term, for almost 3000 years and changed a lot because of new phenotypes mixing in.) if the aiel only had offspring with other similar-looking aiel, the chances of their appearance changing drops dramatically. little genetic drift, little chance of influx of new genes.

 

mutations happen all the time but 99+% of them are not beneficial (note: this does not mean harmful, most make no noticable changes). in order for the entire populatio to get significantly darker, there would need to be an external pressure preventing the fairer skinned aiel from reproducingl relative to the darker skinned aiel. the aiel protect their skin so the heat and sun do not kill them (either through heat stroke or skin cancer or whatever). without this external pressure and virtually only one pheotype existing, there is little chance for the aiel to spontaneously darken.

 

this is obviously a very simplified explanation and only touches on part of your post but it is the best i can do at the moment

 

+1, although 3000 years is enough for, what, 100 generations (if i can do math right). After 100 generations, they should have darkened a little, but hey, if RJ wants to keep them fair skinned that works for me. Perhaps the Aiel from the northern waste (which logically should be cooler, as the equator seems to be a bit south of Randland) are light skinned and have interbreed with the southern Aiel, keeping the light skin gene in the pool. Or maybe the Aiel selectively breed, meaning that lighter skinned individuals are preferred to darker skinned by the Aiel themselves. This topic has gotten way off, but i like this sciency stuff. Its fun! But, to answer the original question, i always pictured the snake people (Aelfinn?) to be like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan-ti

 

100-150 generations, about so. Depends on how long they live, etc.

 

See I kinda viewed the snake people like that at first, then I went back and checked Mat's POV again, he wasn't shocked by them. I think they look real human otherwise he would have flipped.

[Luckers]

Although to toss this out there:l Are we debating the same thing? What do ya'll consider "Fair Skinned"

 

And I honestly can't find a decription of the Aiel as Fair skinned. I'm in book 4 where Mat tells Rand if he keeps standing in the Sun he'll really look like the Aiel, leading me to believe they're pretty dark normally. (Not brown dark, but darker skinned).

 

I always pictured their skin tone near the desert dwelling people on our planet.

 

The Aiel are described as fair often. Elaida points out Rand's fair skin, there are several scenes where Aiel waiting for gai'shain robes are described with the skin the sun hadn't touched, and a moment with Aviendha.

[CauthonsLuck]

Tuon. Never thought that she was black or whatever she is. Still don't know what she is.

[TristanWebb]

She is as dark as a human can get, and tiny to boot.