[August Discussion]: The Black Tower in and after AMoL

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

they end playing chess on a beach.

[yoniy0]

Oh, the argument raged for quite some time on the discussion boards. Ultimately, I think it comes down to character (as you've said), appearance (Moridin had zero reason to disguise himself in his dreams, and Rand identified him as the SL-Wanderer, not Taim), and the simple matter of free-time. Taimidin fails on all three.

[randomh3r0]

Oh, the argument raged for quite some time on the discussion boards. Ultimately, I think it comes down to character (as you've said), appearance (Moridin had zero reason to disguise himself in his dreams, and Rand identified him as the SL-Wanderer, not Taim), and the simple matter of free-time. Taimidin fails on all three.

Gotcha. Never saw that discussion, but it fits with my ideas on Moridin too. Though, one of the most interesting concepts surrounding Moridin to me is the aide he offered in SL at all. Granted, he wouldn't have wanted Sammael to be the one to kill Rand, and earn Nae'blis (at that time it was undecided). But he's come down pretty hard on Graendal for what she tells him was the accidental death of Aran'gar at Nattin's Barrow, yet he was at least as helpful to Rand in killing Sammael as Graendal was in Aran'gar's death. (Granted, he doesn't know Graendal bound them to be killed, but still) It's just weird. I think in Moridin's incarnation, Elan is slightly more conflicted and lucid in his philosophy than Ishamael was. Perhaps, since Ishamael was half-mad supposedly, Moridin is still his soul but as he was before?

This is why I think that Moridin (along with Cyndane) would be prime candidates for a possible Light swap towards the end. Though Mierin was always in love with power, she has moments of genuine terror and seemingly her own take on what serving the DO means for her.

Anyway, how this all relates to the BT, I think if Moridin is willing to help Rand kill Sammael for his own gains, he might end up helping Rand by killing Taim at some point. I don't see Rand and Taim in a showdown, as we've seen multiple times that Logain and Taim both acknowledge Rand's superior strength, and he hasn't spent long as an outward enemy, more of someone you love to hate and suspect of things. But Moridin, in his own designs, I could easily seee killing Taim in a showdown during a moment of betrayal or something.

Just a few other thoughts.

[Panchi]

I don't have quotes and it would take too long to find them anyway.

 

Does Taim has illusion all the time? Moridin rescued Rand in Shadar Lagoth. His name was not given but the way Rand describes him and then using True power, makes it Moridin. If he was Taim, Rand would have recognised him. He rescued Rand and then a bond was formed between them.

 

In Far Gadding, Taim's orders were to kill Rand while Moridin said to give him everything in his possession. If Taim is Moridin then why would he ask to kill Rand and as Moridin doesn't.

 

Moridin's hand was paralysed when Rand's hand was destroyed. I don't remember anything like that happening with Taim.

 

Taim has been jealous of Rand, or so it seems to me, while Moridin knows himself to be his equal. But it confuses me that Taim has been referred to as powerful as Rand. Rand is as powerful as LTT and LTT's equal was Ishmael.

[yoniy0]

Yes, I agree. If Taim's front is an illusion, why not make it a good one (how else do we explain Bashere's confusion in this scenario?). Especially if they knew enough of Taim to stand an examination (the story about those negotiations and whatnot).

 

On the other hand, there's this line from ToM that Mik is sure to quote:

"And you see," Taim said, walking with one hand folded -- fingers making a fist -- behind his back. With his other hand, he pointed toward a distant, part-finished wall of black stone. "Guard posts spaced at fifty-foot intervals. Each with two Asha'man atop them." He smiled in satisfaction. "This place will be impregnable."

This, however, doesn't stand if you realize just how many people have done that in ToM: Galad (most notably), Grady, Bashere, Ituralde, [Random servant in the Andoran palace].

[Mik]

It´s obvious that Jordan/Sanderson want us to believe that Taim is Moridin/has something to do with Moridin in the latest books. I understand the theory that he is Moridin, and I wouldn´t be surprised if it´s right but it would feel wrong. Moridin is one of my favourites and Taim is just ... arrogant. It feels wrong that he would order the other forsaken to take care of Rand/not take care of Rand when he is the one closest to him himself. And why put Darshiva in the BT as well? Isn´t it enough with one forsaken?

I don't understand for the life of me why people keep saying 'it feels wrong'. It's brilliantly written. There's hints all over the books... ever since book 4 actually. Moridin is playing both sides of the board. To Moridin (and you don't want to know what I think Moridin is... (if you do..look for the 'Equal yet not' thread and scroll through pages 3 to 8 or something)), everyone are just pawns on a board...they're insects... and all they are good for is for manouvering the Dragon and his important amigo's to squares on the board where all moves they make end up in Shai'tans victory.

 

And putting Osan'gar in the Black Tower makes so much sense; Like Jorden didn't want his readers to find out too soon that Taim was Moridin, neither did Moridin wanted the Chosen to know. Putting Osan'gar in the Tower makes sure the other Forsaken don't come pissing on his turf and ruin his plans (because Osan'gar can claim the Tower as his base of operations) and it makes none of the Chosen wonder who this Taim fellow is. Osan'gar is Moridin's safest option, because -even though he is strong in the Power- he's next to useless knowlegde wise. Osan'gars is Moridin's cover to the other Chosen.

 

I don't think Moridin could be Taim. There's things that could speak towards that possibility, but the actions are everything. Taim is arrogant: Moridin is almost sanguine in his confidence, a stark contrast I believe. Taim is building himself something he thinks will last through the LB, while Moridin is doing all this to break the Wheel and not have to live anymore. And Rand's connection with Moridin, almost like his connection to Mat and Perrin, always shows Moridin's true face, like he did in Shadar Logoth. I don't think Moridin would bother parading around as someone else, especially one who had to bow and scrape to Rand for so long earlier on.

 

I agree with TinaHel, it'd just kinda... feel wrong, to me. I think Moridin will either end up in more of a philisophical debate with Rand, who has already started referring to him as Elan, working the angle of using logic against logic. They are as two old friends when meeting in the dream, able to just sit there and talk by the fire. This all speaks totally wrong for Taim, in my mind. But I could be wrong too.

"Taim" has serious emotional-issues every time he's surprised and when events don’t play out the way he wants them to go. In there first meeting, when "Taim" finally submits after Rand loses his cool (exactly what Moridin wants!), he literally states he will 'serve and obey'; Shai'tan's credo! What Moridin wanted up untill VoG, is for Rand to turn into him! What better way then to offer to stand at the Dragon's shoulder...you know...the place from where he whispered his venom to kings like Hawkwing. That was Moridin's plan...and he got the command of the farm thrown in his lap! He makes the best (or worst if you will!) of what he can do with that and he tries to influence Rand (who won't let Taim near him too much because of how LTT reacts). Moridin almost succeeds with changing Rand into him as we can see in VoG! That was one of the ways for the Shadow to win in the greater game (sha'rah); to have Rand become his own enemy. Because if you become what you fight.. you loose! (Aridhol anyone?)

 

I don't understand the whole 'they don't act alike' argument at all! When it's important to the Shadow’s plans and things appear out of his control, -when our controlfreak is thrown offtrack-, they both show the same signs of furious and enraged thoughts/ behaviour! And besides; this is Moridin -Death- we're talking about. The Soul of the Shadow! He's playing -everyone- for a fool; even the Forsaken...for decades!

He plays the part -as best as he can- that will give him the edge on the Last Day. The rest -what he has to do, who he has to sacrifice, who he has to dupe-, is totally irrelevant in the greater game.

 

Oh, the argument raged for quite some time on the discussion boards. Ultimately, I think it comes down to character (as you've said), appearance (Moridin had zero reason to disguise himself in his dreams, and Rand identified him as the SL-Wanderer, not Taim), and the simple matter of free-time. Taimidin fails on all three.

Yeah. I've always been a Taim = Moridin believer. Simply because that's exactly how I read it from the first time. It was obvious and it still is.

The whole Dem = Taim.. Asmo = Taim.. Taim = Taim... Taim = turned.. etc... jesus christ man. I never understood any of those.

 

About yout arguments;

1 -Character;

They share the important trademarks; those short signs of fury and rage instantly replaced by caution or dead calm. The rest -is- all sharade,a tool for manipulation to the Soul of the Shadow.

 

2 -Appearance;

it makes sense "Taim" is the one with the Mask of Mirrors! Because that's the 'person' who deals with Third Age simpletons mostly. All the Chosen -who meet with Moridin from time to time- might easier spot a Mask of Mirrors because they know about the weave and they know about the True Power. Things Third Agers have no knowledge of and if they do find out, they’re hardly a threat and much easier replaced –if even needed- then one of the Chosen.

 

3-the free-time argument;

If I could Travel instantly from one place to the next, AND if I had a load of ‘employees’ who could also Travel instantly for me and who ‘serve and obey’ (on punishment of death and eternal punishment and on the promise of immortality and the power to rule)–regardless of how far the trip-, why would it matter if I worked at home, at the office, or an a remote ship docked in Thailand? I’ll tell you; it doesn’ t matter in even the slightest bit.

I wonder how much sleep a creature like Moridin –who’s kept ‘alive’ (ahum) by Shai’tans Power- actually needs? I think it just needs ‘recharging’ near the Blight where he can be all night if he wants. Moridin has thousands of minions, hundreds who can Travel. We’ve seen him reach dozens through their dreams.

Darkfriends come to him –summoned- from all over the world. People receive commands through dreams. People are commanded through others with commands from Ishy/ Moridin. He can travel and so can a shitload of his minions. In my opinion ‘free-time’ & location are non arguments from people who relate what the Heart of the Dark can do to what they themselves could do. A pointless comparison with a total disregard for what we can read in the books.

 

 

Gotcha. Never saw that discussion, but it fits with my ideas on Moridin too. Though, one of the most interesting concepts surrounding Moridin to me is the aide he offered in SL at all. Granted, he wouldn't have wanted Sammael to be the one to kill Rand, and earn Nae'blis (at that time it was undecided). But he's come down pretty hard on Graendal for what she tells him was the accidental death of Aran'gar at Nattin's Barrow, yet he was at least as helpful to Rand in killing Sammael as Graendal was in Aran'gar's death. (Granted, he doesn't know Graendal bound them to be killed, but still) It's just weird.

Sammael would never be Nae’blis; it’s a hollow promise, just as world domination is. If any of the Chosen –Ishamael excempt- would realise what it would take to be the Nae’Blis, they’d run for the hills. Moridin didn’t help Rand because of the possiblity of Sammael becoming Nae’blis, but because if the ‘greater game’; Moridin needs Rand his Soul to be destroyed, because that’s the prison of Shai’tan. And Shai’tan –nor Moridin- can destroy something so pure. Only the one given that Soul can Choose to do it. Either by becoming like his enemy; pure evil (almost happened in VoG) or by giving it to Shai’tan (we see this coercing by Ba’alzy/ Ishy all throughout the first books). The last resort is for Shai’tan to break it in direct battle with the owned of the Soul; the Dragon reborn in the one place where Shai’tan has a shot; in a mix of TAR and the real world (see Verin’s paradox in TDR); all the worlds will be one when Mat blows the Horn and Shai’tan –through his link with Moridin- will duke it out with the Dragon in a battle of Will. Because Thought is Matter in TAR. Because the Horn summons ‘all of Time’ (per birgitte in TGH). Because Reality is Clay at Shayol Ghul. Shai’tan and the Dragon need the same conditions for different reasons; Shai’tan needs the to break free. The Dragon needs them to seal away evil as the Creator had designed it (although the Dragon doesn’t realise this yet, but he will during the Last Battle I think). The Dragon shall will the sun to Dawn in the one place totally devoid of Light; the void of the Shadow. He will have a Memory of Light, and will think of the rising sun. Clear thought in the mealstrom of Chaos will be the Arrow of Time. The first Dawn in TAR ever in the books! Twice shall Dawn the day!

 

Sorry.. I think I got a bit off track there… :P

 

I think in Moridin's incarnation, Elan is slightly more conflicted and lucid in his philosophy than Ishamael was. Perhaps, since Ishamael was half-mad supposedly, Moridin is still his soul but as he was before? .

Nope, not as he was before; when Transmigrating Ishamael, Shai’tan added a Myrddraal to the mix in a SLayer like fashion. Shaidar Haran and Moridin are actually one creature. I think Ishamael could invade the minds og regular Myddraal just like Myrddraal can invade Trolloc minds. That’s why Ishamael was ‘more then half mad’; as Elan Morin he had given himself fully to Shai’tan. It’s how he –literally- betrayed all hope. He gave Shai’tan a mind and soul to use as it saw fit; that’s what it means the Nae’bilis –“to be but HALF a step below the Dark One-, by becoming half of what Shai’tan represents and by forfeiting yourself for the greater good of the Shadow. That’s why we always see the Chosen think and say ‘he was less then human and more then half mad’…..

 

Sorry… I think I got a bit off track there as well… :P

 

This is why I think that Moridin (along with Cyndane) would be prime candidates for a possible Light swap towards the end. Though Mierin was always in love with power, she has moments of genuine terror and seemingly her own take on what serving the DO means for her.

Moridin? Never in a million Turnings. Cyndane…. big maybe. Possible, but I doubt RJ would do it; she always was ‘ripe for the Shadows plucking’, even before the Shadow touched the Pattern. Just because she might come to realise what it actually means, doesn’t mean she’s a nice girl now. Ingtar had noble reasons –much like Aridhol once had- for joining the Shadow. It was wrong and would never ever work –as he came to realise and see in the If-Worlds-, but Mierin…she has always been evil of a sorts. I doubt she’ll make a 180 on the Last Day. She’ll get what she’ll deserve…

 

Anyway, how this all relates to the BT, I think if Moridin is willing to help Rand kill Sammael for his own gains, he might end up helping Rand by killing Taim at some point. I don't see Rand and Taim in a showdown,…

Moridin kill “Taim”. Heh. Well, you know how I feel about that. ;)

A ‘showdown’ in the Black Tower between Rand and Taim? Maybe not, …probably not (IT IS NOT HERE).

But I sure hope to read these lines –or something along these lines- somewhere early in aMoL. Perhaps when Rand goes to the Tower to free Logain (if he’s captured there):

 

“As Rand drew on the One Power he felt the men around him fill themselves with saidin. His skin tingled with so many Aes Sedai –most of them Greens and Reds, linked to the Dedicated- filling themselves with saidar. He trusted Perrin had done his part and he wove the gateway. As his Maiden escort ducked through he sensed the wrongness that oozed out. He would let them carry his honor regardless, he understood now’.

He was first of the channelers, the first among equals, to step into the Black Tower. As he did he heard evil grinning and smirks all around him. He paid the Asha’man, the men who had let themselves become weapons and worship the Shadow- no heed. He had eyes only for the creature on the ornate throne. Eyes only for his true enemy, the serpent in their midst. He was the Dragon –blinded no longer- and he spoke the words his People had tought him.

 

“I see you, Asha’m’hael. I see you, Ishamael”

 

The man on the throne smiled that half-smile, the smile that had never touched his eyes and he ..’rippled’. “So you figured it out…finally…you worm”, Moridin said. As he stood up from his throne one of the Asha’man slumped to the floor. This time it was Rand’s time to smile; the Forkroot in the canals had worked and apparantly some of these men had had a little too much to drink this morning…..”

 

In Far Gadding, Taim's orders were to kill Rand while Moridin said to give him everything in his possession. If Taim is Moridin then why would he ask to kill Rand and as Moridin doesn't.

Because “small increases in chaos can be as important as large ones”? If it served Chaos, all is well.

 

Moridin's hand was paralysed when Rand's hand was destroyed. I don't remember anything like that happening with Taim.

How easy do you want RJ to make this stuff for you? Read my post on the previous page. Min’s hint alone should be enough as is! There’s a quazillion more hints in what Taim says… how he says.. how he acts when surprised.. how people with special abilities (Perrin & Min) percieve him… what LTT says about him… etc. etc. etc.

 

And ofcourse…. there IS a hand-hint… late in ToM. For allllll the people who say; “but we never SEE him have hand-trouble. We didn’t need it when aCoS came out… and we sure as hell don’t need it now… and yet… we got one anyway!

 

Yes, I agree. If Taim's front is an illusion, why not make it a good one (how else do we explain Bashere's confusion in this scenario?). Especially if they knew enough of Taim to stand an examination (the story about those negotiations and whatnot).

Well… Moridin has to walk a very fine line to start with! There’s people knowing Taim around Rand. But it has to different enough so “Taim” and Moridin don’t look alike enough to be recognised as one by appearance! So, the orignal Taim is altered for reasons shown above; It’s easier to hide the True Power weave among simpleton insects than among insects that know about both those factors and who are slightly more important in the great game.

 

On the other hand, there's this line from ToM that Mik is sure to quote:

"And you see," Taim said, walking with one hand folded -- fingers making a fist -- behind his back. With his other hand, he pointed toward a distant, part-finished wall of black stone. "Guard posts spaced at fifty-foot intervals. Each with two Asha'man atop them." He smiled in satisfaction. "This place will be impregnable."

This, however, doesn't stand if you realize just how many people have done that in ToM: Galad (most notably), Grady, Bashere, Ituralde, [Random servant in the Andoran palace].

I think t’s just one more hint we really didn’t need, yon. It’s like Tina says; BS is making it more and more obvious just so it won’t be such a big surprise and people will go “OHH this is soo wroonggg”. (wich I think it isn’t; it’s beautiful…all the cheap hints ruin it)

Now it’s become too obvious really. Regardless that most people still don’t see it. Or want to see it (because they’d have to admit being wrong for like 15 years).

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

whatever ending we get... it won't be this good.

[yoniy0]

Well, Mik, I for one have no qualms about being wrong for 15 years (though, I'm not sure Ishamael was even dead for that long). In fact, I'm sure I was; if I was capable of missing Verin's lie in TGH, I'm capable of anything.

 

That being said, I don't find your arguments here coherent. For example, there's no obvious connection between Ishamidin's game of corrupting Rand (which he definitely did play, as is so elegantly paralleled in his Sha'rah match) and Taim being Moridin. It works equally well regardless of your theory, and therefore cannot be used as evidence for it. The same goes for Shaidar Haran's connection to Moridin -- whether or not that theory is sound (and personally I think it has some problems, such as SH's link to Shayol Ghul, which Moridin clearly does share), it doesn't reflect on the question of Taim's identity.

 

As for having to choose distinct enough a mask for his Taim persona, why would they put themselves in this problem to begin with? Why not choose another body for Ishamael's soul? And, if Taim was indeed captured by the Black Ajah, why wasn't he used in the fashion Joiya described? Also, as for sleeping, the fact that Rand was able to invade Moridin's dreams means that he does sleep, and very likely for more than 5 minutes per day (although, Rand's being ta'veren mitigates this problem in your theory).

[Mik]

Well, Mik, I for one have no qualms about being wrong for 15 years (though, I'm not sure Ishamael was even dead for that long).

I was 19. That's (oh crap) 16 years ago even. LoC must have been out then, so -for me- it was 16 years ago. For F#^%@ sake, I must live in TAR, because some days it feels like a few years...and some days it just feels like Ages... Time flows so wierd up in here *points at own forehead*

Now that I read it...I didn't mean it so harsh the way it reads now.

 

In fact, I'm sure I was; if I was capable of missing Verin's lie in TGH, I'm capable of anything.

Personally, I just thought she was Black. Her being a what she was, caught me off guard too! Then again... I see Darkfriends everywhere!

 

That being said, I don't find your arguments here coherent.

That's a trademark of mine. I just can't seem to get it all explained too well. Writing that post on the first page took me the better part of the day to be honest...and I even had (a 70 page) file that's just sitting on my computer with theory-stuff. I'm much like Ishamael really; 'more then half mad, but still very much human' ;)

 

What do you think about the first page post though?

 

For example, there's no obvious connection between Ishamidin's game of corrupting Rand (which he definitely did play, as is so elegantly paralleled in his Sha'rah match) and Taim being Moridin.

Except that Taim suggests he'd make them (what would become Asha'man) weapons... except that he wants Rand to distrust Aes Sedai... except he constantly makes Rand angry and then in control of the rage. Ishamael tried coercing, baiting and threatening first to have Rand submit willingly to Shai'tan. Meanwhile, he was already planting seeds of doubt and distrust (blinding) in Rand...about Aes Sedai... about his role... etc. Taim took over the moment he attached himself to Rand. He wanted to stay close to Rand, but Rand had other plans with him. I think those aren't as obvious in and by themselves as other clues -certainly-, but they're there...and they fit I think.

 

It works equally well regardless of your theory, and therefore cannot be used as evidence for it.

Like I said, I think it adds to the pile and fits with what Ishamael/ Moridin are trying; to make Rand like himself without Rand realising it. What Taim tells Rand, how he infuriated Rand at times.. it's part of making Rand the 'Lord Dragon the has everyone serve him'.

 

The same goes for Shaidar Haran's connection to Moridin -- whether or not that theory is sound (and personally I think it has some problems, such as SH's link to Shayol Ghul, which Moridin clearly does share), it doesn't reflect on the question of Taim's identity.

Oh...why then did Ishamael nor Moridin never had a field command and why do we see him around Shaoyl Ghul -or near- so often? Why are the Black Tower and it's surroundings turning into a little 'Blight'? Doesn't sound so odd if you accept that the Hand of the Shadow is there so often, I think. Slayer was Shai'tans prototype of combining a living and a dead man. The Nae'blis is a perfected version of a Slayer-like combination of a living man and a neverborn (that has some room, because it's only partly in reality for Shai'tan himself)

 

As for having to choose distinct enough a mask for his Taim persona, why would they put themselves in this problem to begin with? Why not choose another body for Ishamael's soul?

Because by pure chance (the Dark One's own luck you might call it), Taim's body was easily pinpointed and avalaible ofcourse! It's ex-act-ly like RJ himself explains. I do believe this is a hint right there...

 

Week 3 Question (Matt Hatch)

There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan

 

After the soul is secured, then a suitable body must be acquired and stripped of the (former) owner's memory and soul to make way for the favored one. By the way, what constitutes a suitable body from the Dark One's perspective is not that of the recipient. Certainly Aginor would never have chosen to be reincarnated in his, shall we say, less than imposing body, nor would the womanizing Balthamel have chosen to be reincarnated as a beautiful woman. It was only chance that Moridin ended up in a body that is young, fairly good looking and physically imposing. Those things simply don't matter to the Dark One. But the body has to be basically healthy and sound, and neither too young nor too old. After all, the Dark One wants his servants to be effective, and a body that meets those basic requirements is more desirable than one that doesn't. Since there is no stockpile of such bodies, the only way for someone to die and immediately be reincarnated would be a matter of pure chance. That is, the death occurred when a suitable body was on hand for some other reason.

 

And, if Taim was indeed captured by the Black Ajah, why wasn't he used in the fashion Joiya described?

Joiya described 'a' plan that involved Taim! That in and by itself is a clue. They were very much aware of him. If Joiya describes the plan that's going to executed is very much in doubt because of Black Ajah Oaths. Still, the fact Taim was mentioned by Black Ajah is nice enough. All I needed to know was that 2 weeks after Ishy dies, the Amyrlin gets word (so it happened much earlier) of 3 things simultaniously; the Dragon took the Stone (and thus killed Ishy), the Blight retreated (what IS shai'tan doing?) and Taim was 'taken ..in the night'. Hefty combo in a chapter called 'Deceptions' in a book called 'the Shadow Rising' that had prophesy literally state; “Power of the Shadow made human flesh, wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin."

[yoniy0]

In order:

My god, you're right. Wow, how time does fly (although, apparently I've only been reading the books since '97; odd, I was sure I was younger).

 

The reason I remain unconvinced is that I believe you combine several things into one, when they don't actually reflect on one another. With many points bundled into each argument, some may turn out to be true (and some I agree with, such as Moridin's goal with Rand), but that needn't imply that the rest will as well. Therefore, I believe in separating each point and looking for independent support (if your entire theory leans on every little idea coming true, it's highly unlikely to be correct).

 

The thing with Taim is that he serves the Shadow either way, so his executing Moridin plans needn't mean that he's Moridin. Therefore, I don't consider that evidence of anything.

 

As to the link to Shayol Ghul, Moridin is seen away from it often enough (he seemingly has no difficulty in Ebou Dar), and more importantly, his thoughts never betray a limitation. I do agree, however, that there's room for them to be as one and us still not knowing about it. This could actually be a really good reason for there to be SG rocks at the BT -- although I'm not convinced (it would work as a method for SH to be frequently present even without your theory). One more thing -- again, I don't think one can find evidence for the rot of the land being any worse around the BT than it is in the rest of Randland.

 

Good point about the availability of bodies and Joiya's Oaths. I mistakenly thought she, and not Amico, was the one severed.

[Niniel]

Mik - I didn´t understand something you said - do you think Moridin and SH is the same?

[Mik]

Mik - I didn´t understand something you said - do you think Moridin and SH is the same?

Basically, yes. They're one creature bound together like Slayer is. Only this time it's not one living man and one dead man (that combines 2 souls, 2 body's and 1 mind) but one living man and one neverborn (that combines 2 heavily corrupted souls, 2 body's and 1 heavily corrupted living mind)

 

If you want to read more about it (and if you have a spare half an hour), I'd suggest reading this thread: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/29258-equal-yet-not/page__st__60?do=findComment&comment=835965 from page 3 and onwards. It get's very messy with all the old quotes that no longer work, but you can still find my reasons etc. It's gets a bit of a slugfest between Maj, Mr Ares and myself, but well, I think it's the Thread where I put most of the stuff together.

 

In order:

My god, you're right. Wow, how time does fly (although, apparently I've only been reading the books since '97; odd, I was sure I was younger).

 

The reason I remain unconvinced is that I believe you combine several things into one, when they don't actually reflect on one another. With many points bundled into each argument, some may turn out to be true (and some I agree with, such as Moridin's goal with Rand), but that needn't imply that the rest will as well. Therefore, I believe in separating each point and looking for independent support (if your entire theory leans on every little idea coming true, it's highly unlikely to be correct).

Well then. RAFO I guess. I see it totally different; I like what Einstein said best; "Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler". A lot of people say I overcomplicate stuff, but I'm of the opinion they're oversimplifying matters. Besides, personally *I* don't see the overcomplication, but I guess that's kinda hard when you're experiencing the 'theory' as you read the books; it comes natural, so it's not complicated at all in my view. Only a few more months and then I'll be put out of my misery. ;)

 

The thing with Taim is that he serves the Shadow either way, so his executing Moridin plans needn't mean that he's Moridin. Therefore, I don't consider that evidence of anything.

Yeah well. Please explain Min's viewing of "Taim" then? Or explain those quotes I posted [with comments inserted] from LTT. Be my guest; nuke those and then we'll talk about the aditional stuff.

 

As to the link to Shayol Ghul, Moridin is seen away from it often enough (he seemingly has no difficulty in Ebou Dar), and more importantly, his thoughts never betray a limitation. I do agree, however, that there's room for them to be as one and us still not knowing about it.

Us? :)

 

This could actually be a really good reason for there to be SG rocks at the BT -- although I'm not convinced (it would work as a method for SH to be frequently present even without your theory)

Say what? Where does it say that the BT is made out of SG rock!? That'd be brilliant, but I'm pretty sure if there was even a hint of that, I would have picked it up, since it fits so well with what I already wrote

 

One more thing -- again, I don't think one can find evidence for the rot of the land being any worse around the BT than it is in the rest of Randland.

And yet, if it's exactly as I explained, everyone will post "oh that clever RJ...look...there is foreshadowing here..and foreshadowing there! *shrugs*

 

Good point about the availability of bodies and Joiya's Oaths. I mistakenly thought she, and not Amico, was the one severed.

No problem.

 

whatever ending we get... it won't be this good.

*bows and tips hat* thanks Cindy!

[yoniy0]

Mik, I'm wounded that you haven't paid attention to every last word I wrote:

1.4

And of course, we can't conclude this discussion without referring to Brandon's revelation from this year's Jordancon, that the walls (and possibly the podium, see here) of the BT are made from Shayol Ghul rock. This little fact might have many ramifications (see Egwene's Dream in part 2.2 of this post), or none. Most notably, I think, Rand's blood is to be spilled on the rocks of SG. This connection isn't rock-solid (see what I did there?), as Rand also has to bleed in the Pit of Doom, but we already know that somehow Rand's blood "shall give us the Light" and "free men from the Shadow", but at the same time its spilling will "bring us the Darkness so beautiful". Therefore, suggesting that Rand's blood will have to be spilled more than once isn't that farfetched, and one of those times may well occur in the BT.

This isn't from the books, true.

 

By "us still not knowing" I meant "no clear confirmation appearing in the books". As to the Viewing of Taim, it's doubtful she actually saw something of his past, considering RJ's insistence that she can't. Her phrasing is such that she might've been projecting, or RJ might've simply made a mistake (which you know he did from time to time, such as with Thom's knives, and very likely with the Viewing concerning Lan). Finally, I don't see LTT's rants as implying what you think they do. The Grey man seems straightforward enough, and the rest is Rand's distrust of channeling men, based in part on his fear of becoming irrelevant (he's no longer 'special', if you will) -- a fear he admits to have had -- and in part on good reason. It's just easier for him to have his LTT persona express these fears.

[Mik]

Mik, I'm wounded that you haven't paid attention to every last word I wrote:

Ouch. *shuffles feet and looks down* Sowwy!

 

 

1.4

And of course, we can't conclude this discussion without referring to Brandon's revelation from this year's Jordancon, that the walls (and possibly the podium, see here) of the BT are made from Shayol Ghul rock. This little fact might have many ramifications (see Egwene's Dream in part 2.2 of this post), or none. Most notably, I think, Rand's blood is to be spilled on the rocks of SG. This connection isn't rock-solid (see what I did there?), as Rand also has to bleed in the Pit of Doom, but we already know that somehow Rand's blood "shall give us the Light" and "free men from the Shadow", but at the same time its spilling will "bring us the Darkness so beautiful". Therefore, suggesting that Rand's blood will have to be spilled more than once isn't that farfetched, and one of those times may well occur in the BT.

This isn't from the books, true.

I didn't read that, I must admit. *points up a post or two*. Like I said, BS is making it too obvious and I think it's ruining a good story. It does help my case though! Especially if the podium is SG rock! Like I posted, it always reminded me of how RJ wrote about the Two Rivers & the Ways as smaller versions of the bigger picture we got to see later!

 

By "us still not knowing" I meant "no clear confirmation appearing in the books". As to the Viewing of Taim, it's doubtful she actually saw something of his past,...

See? THIS is -exactly- the stuff I just don't understand why people do this. RJ wrote "Min, what did you SEE?" She says "she SAW blood in his past". There's even hints about 'being able to guess as much' and Min 'feeling theres more she should tell Rand'!

You manage to wiggle your way out of "us knowing", by assuming RJ made a mistake!? Those two sentences you wrote, make me want to claw my eyes out.

 

considering RJ's insistence that she can't.

Exactly! So what's going on here; Min just witnissed the Nae'blis...a creature so deep in the Shadow that Time is distorted. I think that makes sense. Not assuming RJ made a mistake and let it be for 18 years.

 

Her phrasing is such that she might've been projecting, or RJ might've simply made a mistake (which you know he did from time to time, such as with Thom's knives, and very likely with the Viewing concerning Lan).

No way, no way & no way; there has been plenty of time to remove those 'mistakes'. Have you ever considered that those blue flashes are from the Myrddraal channeling? Would certainly fit my side of the story :)

 

Finally, I don't see LTT's rants as implying what you think they do. The Grey man seems straightforward enough, and the rest is Rand's distrust of channeling men, based in part on his fear of becoming irrelevant (he's no longer 'special', if you will) -- a fear he admits to have had -- and in part on good reason. It's just easier for him to have his LTT persona express these fears.

The Grey man is sensed after LTT's warning. And that last LTT quote directly links Taim to Ishamael. *shrugs* I never mind if people haven't figured it out themselves, but I can't make the willingly blind see, yon.

 

Got t go!

Cheers, Mik

[yoniy0]

Go, go, I'll be waiting. Min didn't "see" he had blood in his past". She:

"Did you see anything, Min?" Rand said.

[...]

"As for your question, nothing of any use. Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that. He's a dangerous man. They seem to be gathering images like Aes Sedai." A sidelong look through lowered eyelashes at Dashiva and the other Asha'man said who she meant. Most people had few images around them, but Min said Aes Sedai and Warders always did. "The problem is, what I can see is all blurry. I think it's because they're holding the Power. That often seems true with Aes Sedai, and it's worse when they're actually channeling. Kiruna and that lot have all sorts of things around them, but they stay so close together that it all... well... jumbles together most of the time. It's even muddier with the prisoners."

"Never mind the prisoners," Rand told her. "That's what they'll stay."

"But Rand, I keep feeling there is something important, if I could only pick it out. You need to know."

What makes you think the "important something" is about Taim, of all of them? There are many many options, here, for this to be indicative of anything. What's more, there's no indication that being Nae'blis distorts time, and every reason to think it wouldn't:

EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.

I've mentioned the business with Thom's knives because it's one of the examples of RJ's admitting to a mistake: first Thom said he "lost his best set of knives in Aridhol", then after being asked about the blue flashes RJ said "Thom's best set of knives is very special indeed", then after being confronted with the contradiction RJ amended Thom's statement to say "his second-best set was lost". The thing about Lan and a baby with a sword is just an example of how RJ sometimes stuck to his guns even when the initial phrasing was very likely mistaken -- as long as he believed he can passably claim to have been right all along, he tended not to admit mistakes.

Regarding the grey man, note how Rand believes it was LTT's talk of death that made him feel unclean (exactly at the time LTT first spoke). It obviously wasn't: his subconsciousness knew about the Shadowspawn's presence before he took note of it, manifested the warning using this LTT persona; the feeling of filth was what actually prompted it, though.

[Mik]

Go, go, I'll be waiting. Min didn't "see" he had blood in his past". She:

"Did you see anything, Min?" Rand said.

[...]

"As for your question, nothing of any use. Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future, but you could guess that. He's a dangerous man. They seem to be gathering images like Aes Sedai." A sidelong look through lowered eyelashes at Dashiva and the other Asha'man said who she meant. Most people had few images around them, but Min said Aes Sedai and Warders always did. "The problem is, what I can see is all blurry. I think it's because they're holding the Power. That often seems true with Aes Sedai, and it's worse when they're actually channeling. Kiruna and that lot have all sorts of things around them, but they stay so close together that it all... well... jumbles together most of the time. It's even muddier with the prisoners."

"Never mind the prisoners," Rand told her. "That's what they'll stay."

"But Rand, I keep feeling there is something important, if I could only pick it out. You need to know."

Arrrgggh *claws eyes out*

I'm Dutch for crying out loud and *I*m teaching English!?!

 

Example 1:

"Did you see anything, Mik?" yoniy0 said.

[...]

"As for your question -of seeing anything-, it's really funny actually! Luckers has three nipples and TinaHel has two noses, but you already knew that.

 

Example 2:

"Did you see anything, Min?" Rand said.

[...]

"As for your question, nothing of any use. Taim has sweat in his past and a crown in his future, but you could guess that.

 

Example 3:

"Did you see anything, Min?" Rand said.

[bla bla...lot's of blahblahblahhhh]

"As for your question, <statement of implied value regarding what Min saw>. <fill in ANYTHING here and that is exactly what Min saw!>, <Min's opinion based on what she saw>.

 

What makes you think the "important something" is about Taim, of all of them? There are many many options, here, for this to be indicative of anything.

Because she saw something that's supposed to be impossible ofcourse! She can't see the past, and yet she did! Her opinion about it is wrong, because she knew up front -before her Viewing- that Taim fought wars in Saldaea. She could guess it, but she saw it..and that's the important bit she didn't pick out! It's. that. simple.

 

What's more, there's no indication that being Nae'blis distorts time, and every reason to think it wouldn't:

EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.

C'mon yon. Don't be a lightblinded fool. ;)

Yes, Shai'tan is bound by the Wheel (Time). He's surrounded by it or something, but that doesn't mean he's part of it. He's Shai'tan; he's nothingness. And while he's bound, his options are very limited. *shrugs*

 

The Dark One was bound outside of time by the Creator at the moment of creation.

[Tiinker]

What's more, there's no indication that being Nae'blis distorts time, and every reason to think it wouldn't:

EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME.

C'mon yon. Don't be a lightblinded fool. ;)

Yes, Shai'tan is bound by the Wheel (Time). He's surrounded by it or something, but that doesn't mean he's part of it. He's Shai'tan; he's nothingness. And while he's bound, his options are very limited. *shrugs*

 

The Dark One was bound outside of time by the Creator at the moment of creation.

 

Those last two quotes don't seem to come together.. One of the things I really can't wait for is the amount of theory crushing that happens on release day :P These forums are going to explode.

[yoniy0]

Oh, I'm going to listen to the book when it comes out, and postpone reading it until April. Meaning, that I won't be around for 1-2 weeks after release date

[Tiinker]

How come? :o

[Tiinker]

Not sure if I'd have the will power to do that!

[yoniy0]

How come? :o

Not sure if I'd have the will power to do that!

Nah, that's easy. I don't need to go online when I have an unfinished book in my hands (or an unfinished recording on my Android, in this case ). And missing on the first reaction is much better than being accidentally spoiled. Much, much better. I admit to disliking the audible format, but Harriet kind of forced my hand there with her suspicion of ebooks.

 

But back on topic:

I'm Dutch for crying out loud and *I*m teaching English!?!

As to your question, Mik, no need. I've been taught English from a young age, I regularly consume an unhealthy amount of TV content produced in the US and UK, and participate in some online forums conducted in it.

See what I did there? The direct answer was 'no need'. After that, the rest is fluff and feathers: just my thoughts relating to that question and my answer, not necessarily in a direct way. Surly not necessarily word for word. Much in the same way, Min usually puts her own spin on her Viewing when she speaks of them, unless mentioned clearly that the words are part of the Viewing. The same happened, for example, when she thought "dead and gone" and some were convinced it was part of the Viewing -- we now know it clearly wasn't; it was simply her way of referring to Moiraine when she believed the woman dead.

 

So, yes, it's clear from her phrasing that something she saw made her say he had blood in his past. That, however, needn't be actually seeing blood in his past. Off the top of my head, she might've seen vengeful family members coming after him, or just his nature as a ruthless man.

 

The Dark One was bound outside of time by the Creator at the moment of creation.

I'd be careful about taking this quote to seriously, Tiinker. For one thing, folk sayings in Randland may well be wrong, such as many things Moiraine used to think about the Forsaken. For another, you know the common phrasing of this saying:

The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time. The hand of the Creator shelters the world, and the Light shines on us all.

That is simply obviously wrong, if anyone cared to take a look at it. Finally, now that I've looked for quotes, I can't find the version Mik quoted anywhere. Where does it come from, Mik?

[Niniel]

What do you all think about the male channellers from the Aiel, Seafolk etc. Will they join the Black Tower now that the taint is gone? I hope their societies can find a way to accept them and let them work with the female channellers.

[Niel an' Tyomn]

Either that or they'll fake their deaths and escape there.

[Gabby]

What do you all think about the male channellers from the Aiel, Seafolk etc. Will they join the Black Tower now that the taint is gone? I hope their societies can find a way to accept them and let them work with the female channellers.

Possibly. Maybe they'll start their own training places or something. Maybe they will do something like the WT has started - exchanges!

:)

[Guest]

What do you all think about the male channellers from the Aiel, Seafolk etc. Will they join the Black Tower now that the taint is gone? I hope their societies can find a way to accept them and let them work with the female channellers.

I am hoping the ability to use the one power disappears in the end, but maybe that is too much to hope for, I don't know .