Perspectives you dont want to see and you want to see

[burningpriestess]

One POV I'm excited about is Pevara teaming with the Two Rivers boys in the Black Tower.

 

Nynaeve and Rand fighting together at Shayol Ghul is what I'm really looking forward to.

 

SSSSooooooo in agreement that not another word on Perrin/Faile and Elayne/Birgitte would be fine with me. It's work to have to read those parts in order to get to the good parts.

 

Avi is boring, but I do want to see how the Aiel will survive with their former purpose of preparing for the Dragon gone. Hopefully her POV will be short and sweet.

[Suttree]

2. I didn't read his notes, but it is not a far stretch from what is shown in the book. Maybe a slight deviation but it is not out of left field

 

Wondering what makes it not a far stretch as we see zero hint of her being capable of something like that throughout the entire series? She would have disdain for any AS who would have to resort to using the OP to control a situation such as that. Would be very interested for you to quote examples of her character that would allow you to reach that conclusion as it runs counter to her "what must be endured can be endured" mantra.

 

The whole scene falls under Brandon's tendency to dumb down one character in order to make another look better. This is repeated time and time again in conflicts throughout TGS and ToM. She was turned into a caricature version of herself and unfortunately the scene doesn't even make Tam look good. At the end of the day how much credit does one get for calling a dumb bully a dumb bully? That in a nutshell is the worst part, this scene had so much amazing potential. Put all of the blunt prose aside for a moment and just think about the character. Like her or hate her, the one thing Cads has never been is a "dumb bully" whose actions would serve no purpose to the goal at hand.

[thisguy]

2. I didn't read his notes, but it is not a far stretch from what is shown in the book. Maybe a slight deviation but it is not out of left field

 

Wondering what makes it not a far stretch as we see zero hint of her being capable of something like that throughout the entire series? She would have disdain for any AS who would have to resort to using the OP to control a situation such as that. Would be very interested for you to quote examples of her character that would allow you to reach that conclusion as it runs counter to her "what must be endured can be endured" mantra.

 

The whole scene falls under Brandon's tendency to dumb down one character in order to make another look better. This is repeated time and time again in conflicts throughout TGS and ToM. She was turned into a caricature version of herself and unfortunately the scene doesn't even make Tam look good. At the end of the day how much credit does one get for calling a dumb bully a dumb bully? That in a nutshell is the worst part, this scene had so much amazing potential. Put all of the blunt prose aside for a moment and just think about the character. Like her or hate her, the one thing Cads has never been is a "dumb bully" whose actions would serve no purpose to the goal at hand.

 

She's not dumb but she's a bully.

[Suttree]

She's not dumb but she's a bully.

 

Exactly as I said, she was turned into a caricature of herself. No one has ever denied that she doesn't use the stick when that is the best course of action. That a very different things from being a bully by nature however. We also see her use diplomacy with Sorilea, wary exchange of info w/ Verin, and propping up confidence with Samitsu and Kumira at different times. In essence as RJ said she is "remarkably adaptable" and can size up what the best course of action is at any given time. I challenge you on rereads to pay attention, almost unfailingly she treats people how they deserve to be treated. More so she always has a distinct goal in mind for all her actions. Whether taking down 20+ male channelers over the years, rescuing captives from the blight, breaking up rings of DFs terrorizing villages or propping up thrones she always has a plan. At this point in time the mission to save the world is the only thing that matters to her.

 

WH

Cadsuane drew a deep breath. She had promised the boy that whatever she did would be for his good, not the good of the Tower or anyone else's...

 

ACoS

And Cadsuane... Cadsuane touched Rand’s pale face, brushed strands of hair from his forehead. "Do not be afraid, boy," she said softly. "They made my task harder, and yours, but I will not hurt you more than I must.

[thisguy]

I'm well over 200 pages into the 4th book now. When I get to her part of the story I'll let you know what I think. But, I can say this, even though I haven't reread the books in years, many of the Aes Sedai piss me off. I think a lot of them are bullies. They don't necessarily do what's best for people, they do what they think is best for people.

 

I won't hurt you more than I must? Rand should have told her the same thing.

[Suttree]

I'm well over 200 pages into the 4th book now. When I get to her part of the story I'll let you know what I think. But, I can say this, even though I haven't reread the books in years, many of the Aes Sedai piss me off. I think a lot of them are bullies. They don't necessarily do what's best for people, they do what they think is best for people.

 

Cool, look forward to hearing your thoughts. I get the AS thing...the institution has failed no doubt. Cads however is a throwback to what they should be. Notice the quote is referring to how idiotic the other AS had been and how much harder they had made Cad's mission. It is an extremely compassionate moment on her part. We as readers of course know she was very much correct in her assessment of what she needed to teach him, Dark Rand winning would have been every bit as bad as the DO winning. It can not be argued that she is in the right in terms of what she is trying to accomplish. In that she unfailingly had Rand's best interests in mind, she has had his back as much as just about anyone in the entire series. I just wish people paid more attention to that as opposed to the surface level games such as calling him "boy". It's like a knee jerk reaction the fandom has at times. Like OMFG she called messiah RAND a boy and treated him like a child!!! Meanwhile they have totally ignored she put his best interests over her own and the WT's.

[Ryrin]

Top:

 

Rand.

Siuan and Gareth

Moiraine and Thom

Mat.

Nynaeve and Lan.

Elayne

Avi.

Alana.

 

Bottom:

 

Fail.

Min.

Bela.

Gawyn.

Galad.

Perrin.

Tuon.

Seanchan.

[thisguy]

I'm well over 200 pages into the 4th book now. When I get to her part of the story I'll let you know what I think. But, I can say this, even though I haven't reread the books in years, many of the Aes Sedai piss me off. I think a lot of them are bullies. They don't necessarily do what's best for people, they do what they think is best for people.

 

Cool, look forward to hearing your thoughts. I get the AS thing...the institution has failed no doubt. Cads however is a throwback to what they should be. Notice the quote is referring to how idiotic the other AS had been and how much harder they had made Cad's mission. It is an extremely compassionate moment on her part. We as readers of course know she was very much correct in her assessment of what she needed to teach him, Dark Rand winning would have been every bit as bad as the DO winning. It can not be argued that she is in the right in terms of what she is trying to accomplish. In that she unfailingly had Rand's best interests in mind, she has had his back as much as just about anyone in the entire series. I just wish people paid more attention to that as opposed to the surface level games such as calling him "boy". It's like a knee jerk reaction the fandom has at times. Like OMFG she called messiah RAND a boy and treated him like a child!!! Meanwhile they have totally ignored she put his best interests over her own and the WT's.

I'll check it out and let you know. I've always liked Moiraine (I've even felt for her when the Ta'Veren are upset at her) and Verin. Many of the others I've felt neither way about. Aside from that, they usually get under my skin. They seem a bit like magical mobsters.

[shortkut]

I took that scene to be a mix of frustration and "I don't have time to play nice so i'll but to the chase"

[LoLPoR]

Cads would have torn him a new one explaining how she told Tam what he needed to know and you're wrong, then Tam would have insisted that a man needs to know what he's walking into leaving us to decide who we agree with. BS doesnt have a feel for some of the characters and Cadsuane is one of them. Somebody earlier mentioned how he caricaturizes certain people to make others look good. These characters are now effected on how he viewed them and those around them as a fan and not necessarily how RJ viewed them as their Creator. Thus Cadsuane is a power wielding bully, Mat is a clown who is barely literate, and Perrin gets to be the plot for half of every book. I find the scenes most argued are the ones that BS has trouble writing because of character bias as a fan. He loves Tam so of course he has to make him the moral superior in an argument with Cadsuane whose bullying now resorts to her using the power in a verbal argument. Cadsuane's temper is more likely to be let loose in words than through use of the OP or slapping someone. I could see the slap as comical though because imagine a woman of around 300 yrs slapping a man who is just past his prime. It wouldn't have any effect she'd be too weak and Cadsuane never lets weakness show because it would undermine her reputation.

[Vardar]

She snapped. Why is it so hard to think she could do that.

 

1. We have already seen how she acts when faced with the destruction of the world.

 

2. Read RJ's notes on the character.

 

Yep. She slapped Rand. She's shown "violence" of a sort before. So I'm with Short here,

 

I'd see her action before Tam slapping a woman. Have we seen any man strike a women in the series? Serious question here. Spanking aside, that's a serious thing to do.

 

I'm putting my dislike of her aside to answer this question as unbiasly as possible, I'd see Cad wrapping Tam in air before Tam strikes her. Now, I'd actually see her ignoring Tam or being an ass to him before any of those things, but that's besides the point.

[Suttree]

She snapped. Why is it so hard to think she could do that.

 

1. We have already seen how she acts when faced with the destruction of the world.

 

2. Read RJ's notes on the character.

 

Yep. She slapped Rand. She's shown "violence" of a sort before. She I'm with Short here,

 

I'd see her action before Tam slapping a woman. Have we seen any man strike a women in the series? Serious question here. Spanking aside, that's a serious thing to do.

 

I'm putting my dislike of her aside to answer this question as unbiasly as possible, I'd see Cad wrapping Tam in air before Tam strikes her. Now, I'd actually see her ignoring Tam or being an ass to him before any of those things, but that's besides the point.

 

Ermm what are you on about? She never slapped Rand when he proposed to cleanse the taint. She said SL was a fitting place to take the risk and planned a picture perfect defense that held off all the Forsaken.

 

The balefire incident is so different than the situation with Tam as to hold no bearing on the conversation.

[jwood01]

I could see her wrapping Tam in flows of air before i could see Tam slapping her

 

Not sure how? We never, not once see Cads resort to using the power in that manner throughout the entire series, not only that but perhaps more important we never see her lose control. In one blunt sentence BS had her coldly asking why Tam went off script and then in the next lashing out of control with the power under zero provocation. This is the same woman who calmly agreed to risk the world in guarding Rand's back when he decided the taint needed to be cleansed. On the flip side of things we have Tam who is on edge after actually going through the traumatic experience with his son first hand. Again he would have regretted it later but given what had just happened it is the far more believable scenario.

 

I wasn't disputing that Luckers' scenario is the more believable of the two; I agree that it is.

 

However, my reading of Tam al'Thor suggests he wouldn't slap a woman or an Aes Sedai; he might yell at her or chastise her, but the slap seems out of character. But this probably is more debatable than Cadsuane's out of character actions since we have her background notes but don't have Tam's ;)

[Vardar]

She snapped. Why is it so hard to think she could do that.

 

1. We have already seen how she acts when faced with the destruction of the world.

 

2. Read RJ's notes on the character.

 

Yep. She slapped Rand. She's shown "violence" of a sort before. She I'm with Short here,

 

I'd see her action before Tam slapping a woman. Have we seen any man strike a women in the series? Serious question here. Spanking aside, that's a serious thing to do.

 

I'm putting my dislike of her aside to answer this question as unbiasly as possible, I'd see Cad wrapping Tam in air before Tam strikes her. Now, I'd actually see her ignoring Tam or being an ass to him before any of those things, but that's besides the point.

 

Ermm what are you on about? She never slapped Rand when he proposed to cleanse the taint. She said SL was a fitting place to take the risk and planned a picture perfect defense that held off all the Forsaken.

 

The balefire incident is so different than the situation with Tam as to hold no bearing on the conversation.

 

You said when she felt the world was threatened right? Why don't they use Balefire? Because it threatens the fabric of creation, thus in response to your question, I gave an aswer. How does she respond when she feels the world is being threatened. Well, she slapped the hell out of Rand.

[Suttree]

She snapped. Why is it so hard to think she could do that.

 

1. We have already seen how she acts when faced with the destruction of the world.

 

2. Read RJ's notes on the character.

 

Yep. She slapped Rand. She's shown "violence" of a sort before. She I'm with Short here,

 

I'd see her action before Tam slapping a woman. Have we seen any man strike a women in the series? Serious question here. Spanking aside, that's a serious thing to do.

 

I'm putting my dislike of her aside to answer this question as unbiasly as possible, I'd see Cad wrapping Tam in air before Tam strikes her. Now, I'd actually see her ignoring Tam or being an ass to him before any of those things, but that's besides the point.

 

Ermm what are you on about? She never slapped Rand when he proposed to cleanse the taint. She said SL was a fitting place to take the risk and planned a picture perfect defense that held off all the Forsaken.

 

The balefire incident is so different than the situation with Tam as to hold no bearing on the conversation.

 

You said when she felt the world was threatened right? Why don't they use Balefire? Because it threatens the fabric of creation, thus in response to your question, I gave an aswer. How does she respond when she feels the world is being threatened. Well, she slapped the hell out of Rand.

 

If you had read my posts I spelled out the circumstances surrounding the Cleansing and that was obviously what I was referring to.

 

She quite clearly knows using balefire once doesn't threaten the world. It was a lesson. For you to put forth that as a motivating factor of her being so stressed by the world being threatened in that instance that she lashed out is patently absurd.

[Maleshub]

I won't comment on the details of the Cads stuff in this thread; but in the end, it was Rand who prevailed (thanks to VoG episode). And Cads considers that an indirect and accidental result of her planning to teach him to laugh and cry. She may have succeeded; but he's on top in that "fight."

[Suttree]

I won't comment on the details of the Cads stuff in this thread; but in the end, it was Rand who prevailed (thanks to VoG episode). And Cads considers that an indirect and accidental result of her planning to teach him to laugh and cry. She may have succeeded; but he's on top in that "fight."

 

What "fight" are you referring to? Not sure it should be viewed as a contest of sorts as she has had Rand's back to the hilt. All along Cads was very clear that she would put what was best for Rand to learn what he needed before herself and the WT. In addition even Cads fans have said it took a lucky twist of fate at the end for her plan to work. Regardless without it and all the groundwork laid down throughout the books the world would already be doomed.

 

Edit: Wanted to make my point more clear.

[Maleshub]

I won't comment on the details of the Cads stuff in this thread; but in the end, it was Rand who prevailed (thanks to VoG episode). And Cads considers that an indirect and accidental result of her planning to teach him to laugh and cry. She may have succeeded; but he's on top in that "fight."

 

What "fight" are you referring to? All along even Cads fans have said it took a lucky twist of fate at the end for her plan to work. Regardless without it and all the groundwork laid down throughout the books the world would already be doomed.

 

Fight might not be accurate. In the "balance of power" in that relationship, the scales tip towards the post-VoG Dragon Reborn. She doesn't have as much power as she used to in the past. Just a personal perspective on ToM Cadsuane.

[Suttree]

I won't comment on the details of the Cads stuff in this thread; but in the end, it was Rand who prevailed (thanks to VoG episode). And Cads considers that an indirect and accidental result of her planning to teach him to laugh and cry. She may have succeeded; but he's on top in that "fight."

 

What "fight" are you referring to? All along even Cads fans have said it took a lucky twist of fate at the end for her plan to work. Regardless without it and all the groundwork laid down throughout the books the world would already be doomed.

 

Fight might not be accurate. In the "balance of power" in that relationship, the scales tip towards the post-VoG Dragon Reborn. She doesn't have as much power as she used to in the past. Just a personal perspective on ToM Cadsuane.

 

With balance of power I feel things are as they should be now especially with post VoG Rand having found his way(although I do worry about that link with Moridin sometimes, funny how fans rarely take that into account when arguing Rand shouldn't be questioned). Cads role in his development is complete and fittingly she can move on to where she is needed next. Based on her brilliant defense at the cleansing she will be a valuable for the light in the fighting to come. Maybe even a throwback to Rashima Kerenmosa. It would be awesome if she went out in a similar blaze of glory.

[Maleshub]

I won't comment on the details of the Cads stuff in this thread; but in the end, it was Rand who prevailed (thanks to VoG episode). And Cads considers that an indirect and accidental result of her planning to teach him to laugh and cry. She may have succeeded; but he's on top in that "fight."

 

What "fight" are you referring to? All along even Cads fans have said it took a lucky twist of fate at the end for her plan to work. Regardless without it and all the groundwork laid down throughout the books the world would already be doomed.

 

Fight might not be accurate. In the "balance of power" in that relationship, the scales tip towards the post-VoG Dragon Reborn. She doesn't have as much power as she used to in the past. Just a personal perspective on ToM Cadsuane.

 

With balance of power I feel things are as they should be now especially with post VoG Rand having found his way(although I do worry about that link with Moridin sometimes, funny how fans rarely take that into account when arguing Rand shouldn't be questioned). Cads role in his development is complete and fittingly she can move on to where she is needed next. Based on her brilliant defense at the cleansing she will be a valuable for the light in the fighting to come. Maybe even a throwback to Rashima Kerenmosa. It would be awesome if she went out in a similar blaze of glory.

 

Oh, I agree. She has achieved her purpose and helped Rand break free of the DO's attempt to turn him to the Shadow (excluding the TP access and its ramifications). She still has stuff to do; but with her main mission accomplished, she isn't as central as before.

 

As to the relationship with Rand, what I have miserably tried to convey is that Rand is now the stronger presence in that relationship. In the past, Cadsuane's presence was more prominent, and occasionally exceeded Rand's.

[Zorlon]

It would be interesting to get the perspective of a Trolloc mook, and maybe a random Myrdraal.

 

See what's going on in their heads and what they make of all this.

[FarShainMael]

We've had a glimpse inside Shaidar Haran's head in ACoS40, and his thoughts are critical of Sammael for going 'outside the plan'. And he wants to be severed from his tie to SG. (Some foreshadowing there..?) But then, SH is, as he says, 'like no other myrddraal'.

[holiday]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

[thisguy]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

Yeah, I get the feeling that what happened (maybe not exactly how it happened) was written by RJ. I think she is a bully (whether she was doing it for the right reasons or not) and was not surprised by her picking Tam up. A good many of the Aes Sedai act that way.

[Suttree]

To me, the weird thing about the Cadsuane/Tam interaction wasn't that she used 'violence' (she smacked Rand in ACoS and walloped his backside in KoD), but the particular timing of it during their conversation (Tam telling her to 'watch your tongue, Aes Sedai' should cause much more consternation than 'you have a lot to answer for') and her inexplicable speechlessness when he calls her a bully.

 

I do not dislike the scene as much as some, however. I think there is something to be said for it as a culmination, via his father, of the frustration that Rand makes Aes Sedai feel. Moiraine from EOTW would never have used force to win an argument, but by TFoH, she's frustrated enough to use the power as a disciplinary tool. The problem with Cadsuane/Tam scene is it is written too ham-handedley, especially since Rand, the object of frustration, is gone, and two of the characters who care most about Rand (as a son and as the savior of the world) so easily push the danger he is in out of their minds in order to have a petty argument.

Yeah, I get the feeling that what happened (maybe not exactly how it happened) was written by RJ. I think she is a bully (whether she was doing it for the right reasons or not) and was not surprised by her picking Tam up. A good many of the Aes Sedai act that way.

 

We know that section was not in anyway written by RJ. BS expressed happiness(Cads is not his fav character to put it lightly) with being able to write the scene out as he did...